The Assumption of Mary

[Zeek]

......and for those interested, here are the words the first Hymn.

PURE VIRGIN QUEEN, IMMACULATE MOTHER OF GOD,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
VIRGIN MOTHER, QUEEN, COVERING US LIKE A PERFECT GARMENT
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HIGHEST OF HEAVENS, BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN'S RAYS,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
DELIGHT OF VIRGIN CHOIRS, SUPREME OF ALL ANGELS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
BRIGHTER THAN THE SKIES, CLEARER THAN LIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HOLIEST OF ALL HEAVENLY LEGIONS OF SAINTS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, QUEEN NYMPH, SOURCE OF OUR DELIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MODEST MAIDEN, QUEEN, HOLIEST MOTHER
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MOST HONOURED OF CHEROUVEIM, MOST GLORIOUS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
OF THE BODILESS SERAPHEIM HIGHEST OF ALL THRONES
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, EVER VIRGIN LADY OF THE UNIVERSE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
IMMACULATE, ALL PURE NYMPH, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU OUR LADY HEAR YOUR SUPPLICANT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
YOUR BLESSING I SEEK, QUEEN.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MAIDEN MODEST, IMMACULATE, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU, SACRED TEMPLE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
TAKE NOTICE OF ME AND CLEANSE ME FROM ALL EVIL,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
AND INTERCEDE FOR ME TO EARN THE ETERNAL LIFE.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

​

...............................................................................................

I wish I could rejoice and sing this hymn...but I can't, it is so obviously rife with literal unequivocal worship of Mary that it demonstrates beyond any doubt that the whole semantic word games that try to show she is merely venerated, and people just honour her, are utterly false....nor is there any ambiguity to the context, it is a hymn of praise and adoration that attributes G-ds sovereign authority to her.

It is undoubtably blasphemous, but tradition, devotion and religious music disguise the enormity of what is happening when one lifts Mary up in worship like this.

It has nothing to do with the Mary of Scripture, so I have no compunction in condemning this religious disfigurement and unholy caricature of the mother of Jesus...it merely brings shame upon the Body and also demonstrates the reality of Isaiah 5:20 which says:-

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

I believe anyone who reads the words of this hymn...which is symptomatic of myriad other such hymns...should be deeply troubled by the content.

May G-d remove the scales from our eyes.

 

[Thekla]

......and for those interested, here are the words the first Hymn.

PURE VIRGIN QUEEN, IMMACULATE MOTHER OF GOD,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
VIRGIN MOTHER, QUEEN, COVERING US LIKE A PERFECT GARMENT
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HIGHEST OF HEAVENS, BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN'S RAYS,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
DELIGHT OF VIRGIN CHOIRS, SUPREME OF ALL ANGELS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
BRIGHTER THAN THE SKIES, CLEARER THAN LIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HOLIEST OF ALL HEAVENLY LEGIONS OF SAINTS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, QUEEN NYMPH, SOURCE OF OUR DELIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MODEST MAIDEN, QUEEN, HOLIEST MOTHER
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MOST HONOURED OF CHEROUVEIM, MOST GLORIOUS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
OF THE BODILESS SERAPHEIM HIGHEST OF ALL THRONES
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, EVER VIRGIN LADY OF THE UNIVERSE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
IMMACULATE, ALL PURE NYMPH, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU OUR LADY HEAR YOUR SUPPLICANT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
YOUR BLESSING I SEEK, QUEEN.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MAIDEN MODEST, IMMACULATE, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU, SACRED TEMPLE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
TAKE NOTICE OF ME AND CLEANSE ME FROM ALL EVIL,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
AND INTERCEDE FOR ME TO EARN THE ETERNAL LIFE.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

​

...............................................................................................

I wish I could rejoice and sing this hymn...but I can't, it is so obviously rife with literal unequivocal worship of Mary that it demonstrates beyond any doubt that the whole semantic word games that try to show she is merely venerated, and people just honour her, are utterly false....nor is there any ambiguity to the context, it is a hymn of praise and adoration that attributes G-ds sovereign authority to her.

It is undoubtably blasphemous, but tradition, devotion and religious music disguise the enormity of what is happening when one lifts Mary up in worship like this.

It has nothing to do with the Mary of Scripture, so I have no compunction in condemning this religious disfigurement and unholy caricature of the mother of Jesus...it merely brings shame upon the Body and also demonstrates the reality of Isaiah 5:20 which says:-

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

I believe anyone who reads the words of this hymn...which is symptomatic of myriad other such hymns...should be deeply troubled by the content.

May G-d remove the scales from our eyes.

Where is the rest ?

This will help to describe what you've selected; ie describe the context.

Do you say: woe to those who call evil good and good evil because you think Mary is evil ?

And if you describe what is good as evil, is that also not an offense against the working of God ?

 

[Thekla]

......and for those interested, here are the words the first Hymn.

PURE VIRGIN QUEEN, IMMACULATE MOTHER OF GOD,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!​

Virgin selfexplanatory
queen = mother of the King
Mother of Jesus Christ

VIRGIN MOTHER, QUEEN, COVERING US LIKE A PERFECT GARMENT

HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

We are saved by Jesus Christ Wo was born of her, by her cooperation and humility the our Salvation was born into the world; the Godman Jesus Christ.

HIGHEST OF HEAVENS, BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN'S RAYS,

HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

Theosis - like the appearance of Moses' face, and the face of Stephen before his martyrdom.

DELIGHT OF VIRGIN CHOIRS, SUPREME OF ALL ANGELS

HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

For monastics (who are voluntarily celibate) her example is an encouragement.
We are "above" the angels (per Paul, "don't you know that you will judge the angels ?")

BRIGHTER THAN THE SKIES, CLEARER THAN LIGHT,

HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

Again a reference to the uncreated light (see above, Moses and Stephen).

HOLIEST OF ALL HEAVENLY LEGIONS OF SAINTS

HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

The first among the Saints, as by her assent Christ was born, making possible also the resurrection and ascension (as first was chosen by God the incarnation before the others).

MARY, QUEEN NYMPH, SOURCE OF OUR DELIGHT,

HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

This is not the first of what might be called awkward translations -- are you sure the word is not nymph but nymphe = bride in Greek ?

MODEST MAIDEN, QUEEN, HOLIEST MOTHER
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

See above, (she is above all mothers as she gave birth to Jesus Christ)

MOST HONOURED OF CHEROUVEIM, MOST GLORIOUS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
OF THE BODILESS SERAPHEIM HIGHEST OF ALL THRONES

If this is the EO Akathist, this is a truly inaccurate translation !
It should be higher than the cherubim, more glorious than the seraphim. Again, see above (Paul, we will judge the angels; we are higher than the angels). (This translation seems to claim Mary is a noetic creature, not a human - weird.)

HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, EVER VIRGIN LADY OF THE UNIVERSE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
IMMACULATE, ALL PURE NYMPH, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

Christ recapitulates all in Himself (Paul) and is the King of all creation (including the universe) which, per the terminology of antiquity means she is queen. IE, by calling her queen, her Son is identified as KING.

They got "nymph" wrong again (check the Scriptures -- Christ is the bridegroom/nymphos. Does your translator call Him a nymph, too )

I BEG YOU OUR LADY HEAR YOUR SUPPLICANT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
YOUR BLESSING I SEEK, QUEEN.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

Yup, we ask for her prayers.

MAIDEN MODEST, IMMACULATE, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU, SACRED TEMPLE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

Christians are "temples" of the Holy Spirit (Paul).

TAKE NOTICE OF ME AND CLEANSE ME FROM ALL EVIL,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
AND INTERCEDE FOR ME TO EARN THE ETERNAL LIFE.

Take notice, ie pray for me;
cleanse - note that by imitating those whose walk in Christ is more mature, and also fulfilled, we learn "the Way" (this is Paul's repeated advice, to be imitating others including himself).
We all intercede for each other - for what ? Primarily that we may continue and finish the race in "the Way", in Christ.

​

I wish I could rejoice and sing this hymn...but I can't, it is so obviously rife with literal unequivocal worship of Mary that it demonstrates beyond any doubt that the whole semantic word games that try to show she is merely venerated, and people just honour her, are utterly false....nor is there any ambiguity to the context, it is a hymn of praise and adoration that attributes G-ds sovereign authority to her.

1. you are making a false accusation - we do not worship Mary.
2.the meanings of words DO matter (which you deride as 'semantics); like the mistake of calling Christ a nymph.
3. I am beginning to think you desire to be offended, as you seem to have little if no interest in hearing others. Sounds like centuries of foreign policy to me (We know what you think, and what you need, even though we know nothing about you nor do we care to. Hubris. )

It is undoubtably blasphemous, but tradition, devotion and religious music disguise the enormity of what is happening when one lifts Mary up in worship like this.

Now we're accused of blasphemy ? This is bearing false witness; is that okay in your book ?

No compunction indeed !

 

[Thekla]

Zazal said.....I wasn't asking you to take my word on historical Jewish practices...you can do the homework yourself and decide from a wide variety of sources.
First and foremost Scripture makes mention of some of the rather foolish Jewish teachings that abounded at the time, along with an assortment of old wives tales and unprofitable practices. Paul was at pains to warn disciples not to take these things on board or allow them to get mixed in with true doctrine.



Well if you have done the research why are you still disputing with me, and trying to get me chasing my tail by finding relevant quotes about Jewish myth and fable, when you can also see it quite clearly mentioned in Scripture?

I didn't mean to "get you to chase your tail" - there is no explicit mention in Scripture of what these were, so of course I wondered how you felt free to apply correlate them with this discussion.

However for the benefit of others, here are some of the Jewish practices, found in the Bible...which are at the very least...unprofitable.

1. Some Jews took tithing to ridiculous limits....even tithing minute portions of herbs... Luke 11:37

Relevance ?

2. Some Jews made ceremonial washing into a religious art-form...Mark 7:1

Relevance ?

3. Some Jews wrongly taught the worship of Angels...Colossians 2:18

See the context, please; Paul is here describing practices born of the "fleshly" intellect and pride. How is acknowledging that another Christian is more spiritually mature than oneself the result of pride or "intellect"

Indeed, relying on the intellect alone is impossible if one is to strive as a Christian !

And: " ...and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body is nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God." (Col 2:19)

The body of Christ is not divided ! Even by death - if one believes it is, is such a one not separated also from the Head ?

4. Some listened to fables and were so consumed with discussing various intellectual and moral possibilities that all they did was raise question after question, but never pursuing truth and desiring holiness. 1Tim 1:3

Relevance ?

5. Circumcision became a snare as well, simply because many Jews did not understand the grace of G-d, and that He wasn't trying to make the Gentiles Jews...but a New Creation, together with Jews. Galations 5:6
...........................................................................

Relevance ?

The Fables and Myths that abounded are probably referenced through works that were in circulation at the time such as preserved today in the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha.

Evidence ?

The Talmud contains various stories that are passed down from ancient verbal tradition, but are more like fairy-tales.

Relevance ?

Then there are the books of mysticism that were written later, but demonstrate a long-standing fascination with esoteric, gnostic occultic practices.

Relevance ?

I know people within Jewish communities that practice soothsaying and give talks on astrology and tarot....and these are strict Orthodox communities.

Relevance ?

In dealing with Jewish Folklore, Myth and Fable, LOUIS GINZBERG writes this revealing snippet, which to my mind gives a clue, why there is such controversy in some of the teachings that emerged as authoritative, during the first four centuries.

Besides the pseudepigrapha there are other Jewish sources in Christian garb. In the rich literature of the Church Fathers many a Jewish legend lies embalmed which one would seek in vain in Jewish books. Legends of the Jews - Louis Ginzberg's Preface to the Legends of the Jews

Point, and evidence beyond speculation ?

 

[MamaZ]

Where is the rest ?

This will help to describe what you've selected; ie describe the context.

Do you say: woe to those who call evil good and good evil because you think Mary is evil ?

And if you describe what is good as evil, is that also not an offense against the working of God ?

It is not that Mary would be evil but the practice of worshipping her as this song does is evil. For it places this woman some that is sung about in the position of God. This Mary sung about is not ineed the Mary of the bible.

 

[Thekla]

It is not that Mary would be evil but the practice of worshipping her as this song does is evil. For it places this woman some that is sung about in the position of God. This Mary sung about is not ineed the Mary of the bible.

Please see my post to Zazal re: explanations for each line.

Please do not make false claims.

 

[MamaZ]

Please see my post to Zazal re: explanations for each line.

Please do not make false claims.

First, the Mary of the bible is a very humble and obedient servant of the Lord chosen from before the foundation of the earth to be Gods. We do not see anything in the writings of the Apostles in the scripture that even lead us to lift Mary up and sing to her. In fact Mary disappears in the writing of the scripture after the book of Acts. Second, one must prove my false claims. Read the lyrics of the song. It is plain in what the song is saying. Third, can you prove to me through the writings of the scripture that Mary is to lifted up and sang to or prayed to? Can you show me through the teachings of the Apostles writings that Mary should be considered more than what scripture testifies of her. A humble handmaiden of the Lord which so many women today are just the same?

 

[laconicstudent]

......and for those interested, here are the words the first Hymn.

PURE VIRGIN QUEEN, IMMACULATE MOTHER OF GOD,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
VIRGIN MOTHER, QUEEN, COVERING US LIKE A PERFECT GARMENT
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HIGHEST OF HEAVENS, BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN'S RAYS,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
DELIGHT OF VIRGIN CHOIRS, SUPREME OF ALL ANGELS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
BRIGHTER THAN THE SKIES, CLEARER THAN LIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HOLIEST OF ALL HEAVENLY LEGIONS OF SAINTS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, QUEEN NYMPH, SOURCE OF OUR DELIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MODEST MAIDEN, QUEEN, HOLIEST MOTHER
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MOST HONOURED OF CHEROUVEIM, MOST GLORIOUS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
OF THE BODILESS SERAPHEIM HIGHEST OF ALL THRONES
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, EVER VIRGIN LADY OF THE UNIVERSE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
IMMACULATE, ALL PURE NYMPH, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU OUR LADY HEAR YOUR SUPPLICANT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
YOUR BLESSING I SEEK, QUEEN.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MAIDEN MODEST, IMMACULATE, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU, SACRED TEMPLE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
TAKE NOTICE OF ME AND CLEANSE ME FROM ALL EVIL,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
AND INTERCEDE FOR ME TO EARN THE ETERNAL LIFE.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

​

...............................................................................................

Gorgeous, isn't it?

I wish I could rejoice and sing this hymn...but I can't, it is so obviously rife with literal unequivocal worship of Mary that it demonstrates beyond any doubt that the whole semantic word games that try to show she is merely venerated, and people just honour her, are utterly false....

Well, not exactly "obviously" or "unequivocal" considering the majority of Christendom disagrees with you.

nor is there any ambiguity to the context, it is a hymn of praise and adoration that attributes G-ds sovereign authority to her.

It does not attribute God's sovereign authority to her. Honestly, where do you pick up such weird ideas about a hymn?

It is undoubtably blasphemous, but tradition, devotion and religious music disguise the enormity of what is happening when one lifts Mary up in worship like this.

It isn't worship. Nor blasphemy.

It has nothing to do with the Mary of Scripture,

Yes, unless there is another Theotokos outside of Scripture, which I doubt, it probably is discussing Mary, daughter of Sts. Joachim and Anna, Mother of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

so I have no compunction in condemning this religious disfigurement and unholy caricature of the mother of Jesus...it merely brings shame upon the Body and also demonstrates the reality of Isaiah 5:20 which says:-

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

You haven't had much trouble condemning all sorts of things anyways.

I believe anyone who reads the words of this hymn...which is symptomatic of myriad other such hymns...should be deeply troubled by the content.

May G-d remove the scales from our eyes.

You are welcome to your own opinions, naturally.

YouTube - O Virgin Pure-Orthodox Byantine Chant

O Virgin, pure, immaculate. O Lady Theotokos. O Rejoice Bride Unwedded.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Well said, MamaZ.

 

[Thekla]

First, the Mary of the bible is a very humble and obedient servant of the Lord chosen from before the foundation of the earth to be Gods. We do not see anything in the writings of the Apostles in the scripture that even lead us to lift Mary up and sing to her. In fact Mary disappears in the writing of the scripture after the book of Acts. Second, one must prove my false claims. Read the lyrics of the song. It is plain in what the song is saying. Third, can you prove to me through the writings of the scripture that Mary is to lifted up and sang to or prayed to?

I went line by line and gave a description of the Scriptural references and theology (and corrected what seemed to be badly translated).

Please refer to that post.

He that humbles himself shall be exalted. (Luke 14:11, Matthew 23:12).

But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 1 Cor. 12

We honor what is honorable, exalt those who have humbled themselves. This is the teaching of God in the Scriptures.

Can you show me through the teachings of the Apostles writings that Mary should be considered more than what scripture testifies of her. A humble handmaiden of the Lord which so many women today are just the same?

Where does Scripture teach that human beings are "interchangeable" in the eyes of God ? That any "humble handmaiden" of God would do, and that God did not deliberately according to His will choose Mary ?

And how can you assess every woman to come to this conclusion ? How can you see every heart for all of time ?

The Scriptures teach that Mary is "blessed among women" -- that means in comparison to all other women.
God conferred this great blessing on Mary in particular - who are you to diminish the will of God in this matter?

 

[Zeek]

Where is the rest ?
This will help to describe what you've selected; ie describe the context.

You mean there is more? I would have quoted more if it had been available.

Do you say: woe to those who call evil good and good evil because you think Mary is evil ?

Now that is just a daft question Thekla. Of course I don't consider the L-rds mother to be evil. I was quoting that verse because certain brethren here that resolutely promote non-biblical Marian doctrine as if it is perfectly acceptable....and adore the ghastly man-made idol of Mary as if G-d Himself approves...that is calling evil...good.

And if you describe what is good as evil, is that also not an offense against the working of God ?

If I was calling something evil, that was good...I would indeed be offending G-d....but the Spirit within me provokes me to come against such teachings, which I believe are a stench in His nostrils, and a stain upon the Body of Messiah to which we all belong.

I don't say this lightly, flippantly or without realising my own short-comings and sinfulness....but it really is time to put an end to all this religious nonsense, and to run the race set before us with undivided hearts devoted to the L-rd alone.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Interesting. I wondered the same thing too. I think Catholics place too much emphasis on Mary.

## Far from it - she's hardly ever mentioned. The Church give her almost no attention. A feast here, a devotion there, the occasional title, a prayer or two: that's hardly anything

FWIW, today is the proper date of the feast of St. Thomas Aquinas

But to the OP, what do you think of the supposed appearence of Mary at Fatima?

 

[Hairy Tic]

Where is the rest ?

This will help to describe what you've selected; ie describe the context.

Do you say: woe to those who call evil good and good evil because you think Mary is evil ?

And if you describe what is good as evil, is that also not an offense against the working of God ?

## Wonderful hymn

 

[Thekla]

You mean there is more? I would have quoted more if it had been available.

I didn't see a citation for what you quoted, and given the apparent poor quality of the translation it is hard to tell, but I think that may be the case, yes.

Now that is just a daft question Thekla. Of course I don't consider the L-rds mother to be evil. I was quoting that verse because certain brethren here that resolutely promote non-biblical Marian doctrine as if it is perfectly acceptable....and adore the ghastly man-made idol of Mary as if G-d Himself approves...that is calling evil...good.

If you saw my subsequent post to you, then you will find that the concepts in the piece are scripturaly supported. The language used (ie Queen) do express these concepts within a cultural context which may be unfamiliar to you, but that does not make the piece "evil".
It is God who selected Mary and honored her by her participation in His will enacted as a method for our salvation. (Please see my prior post to Mama Z.)

If I was calling something evil, that was good...I would indeed be offending G-d....but the Spirit within me provokes me to come against such teachings, which I believe are a stench in His nostrils, and a stain upon the Body of Messiah to which we all belong.

Because you are perhaps unfamiliar with the cultural expressions and the Scriptural support (which I have provided). This, combined with the apparently inept translation and it seems your expectations resulted in a deep misread.

I would be willing to provide further clarification on the Scriptural supports where my description may have been unclear to you.

I don't say this lightly, flippantly or without realising my own short-comings and sinfulness....but it really is time to put an end to all this religious nonsense, and to run the race set before us with undivided hearts devoted to the L-rd alone.

I think few or perhaps none of us recognize the true depth of our shortcomings. In this matter, I do think you have leaped to a conclusion unwarranted upon further inspection.

Consider - if our hearts are undivided, then we will become more Christ-like. We will come to (through participation) love as He loves, love whom He loves, honor whom He honors (1 Cor.). What is the extent of God's love ? We cannot treat it as something measurable.

I do hope you will consider my subsequent post.
If you do not wish to look at the Scriptural supports, that is up to you.
But, whatever the case, I ask that you not make such comments; that you consider that perhaps you are unfamiliar with what you speak about.
Your reaction - despite each statement in the piece having Scriptural support - suggests the latter case is likely.

 

[Zeek]

TAKE NOTICE OF ME AND CLEANSE ME FROM ALL EVIL,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
AND INTERCEDE FOR ME TO EARN THE ETERNAL LIFE.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

Take notice, ie pray for me;
cleanse - note that by imitating those whose walk in Christ is more mature, and also fulfilled, we learn "the Way" (this is Paul's repeated advice, to be imitating others including himself).
We all intercede for each other - for what ? Primarily that we may continue and finish the race in "the Way", in Christ.

You conveniently miss out commenting on the Hymn asking Mary to cleanse us from all evil...that is blasphemous, but I daresay I have yanked it out of context, or the translation doesn't really convey the proper meaning.

The sad thing is that I could place literally hundreds or even thousands of prayers and hymns to Mary on these boards that show again and again that it is not the Mary of the Bible....sure some of the things attributed to her are correct....but the vast majority elevate her to a god-like status, and this has nothing to do with the L-rds mother that we know and love from Scripture.

I have gradually realised that just as false Messiahs have been promoted through such teachings as the Mormons or JW's...in which they call Him Jesus, but in actual fact the things they believe about Him, demonstrate they do not know Him. So in a similar way part of the Church have a distorted view about Mary which is why I have found it so hard to understand...but now I think I see that it is another Mary.

1. you are making a false accusation - we do not worship Mary.

You can say what you like...the very words of the hymns you sing or the prayers you offer to this false Mary, are far more eloquent than your empty denials.

2.the meanings of words DO matter (which you deride as 'semantics); like the mistake of calling Christ a nymph.

I don't deny that might be a poor translation....I didn't know any better, and got it from what I believe was an Orthodox site. I only deride the game played with semantics, which always takes the heat off the heart of the issue, and re-directs the argument down a side alley.

3. I am beginning to think you desire to be offended, as you seem to have little if no interest in hearing others. Sounds like centuries of foreign policy to me (We know what you think, and what you need, even though we know nothing about you nor do we care to. Hubris. )

You are wrong...I am not personally offended about any of this....but I am deeply concerned that such blatantly false teachings should continue unchallenged. I don't get any pleasure coming against these things again and again...it gives me no joy saying 'brethren this isn't right, we need to ditch some of these teachings/practices etc'.

I don't know what you mean about foreign policies...all I can say is to repeat that until I came here about four months ago, I had no real idea that my Catholic and Orthodox brethren believed some of the things we now argue and discuss...and it troubles my spirit more than I can express...which is why I am compelled to plead for the truth.

I have also made it very clear that I do not consider myself on any side....I am part of the One Body....not Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant or any other faction....but part of the One True Church made up of Believers washed in the blood of the Lamb....and because of that I cannot keep silent.

Now we're accused of blasphemy ? This is bearing false witness; is that okay in your book ?

If the hat doesn't fit, don't wear it.

The Hymn asked Mary to cleanse us from all evil....she does not have either the power or the authority to do such a thing....only G-d. Therefore I am not bearing false witness....I am pointing out that such a thing is blasphemous because it implies she can do what only G-d can do....it is completely ridiculous.

If you want to continue to justify praise and worship to a false man-made facsimile of the L-rds mother...that is your choice...all the hundreds of years of practice, and the endorsement of foolish men in leadership positions can no longer hide what is now so obvious.

 

[laconicstudent]

If you want to continue to justify praise and worship to a false man-made facsimile of the L-rds mother...that is your choice...all the hundreds of years of practice, and the endorsement of foolish men in leadership positions can no longer hide what is now so obvious.

But Thekla isn't justifying "worship to a false man-made facsimile". She is advocating the pious respect and relationship with another Christian woman, the Champion Leader of all Christian.

YouTube - To Thee the Champion Leader

 

[Dylan Michael]

You can say what you like...the very words of the hymns you sing or the prayers you offer to this false Mary, are far more eloquent than your empty denials.

And you may say what you like, but we do not worship anybody but the triune God.
Sorry.

 

[Thekla]

You conveniently miss out commenting on the Hymn asking Mary to cleanse us from all evil...that is blasphemous, but I daresay I have yanked it out of context, or the translation doesn't really convey the proper meaning.

I have explained before: the Theotokos is not understood to have her own "power", just as Peter's shadow is said to have healed - but we know the healing was actually by the power of God. It is what Paul describes as God "energizing" the action in or through us.
I also explained that thinking Mary has her "own power" would be akin to thinking she conceived Christ by her own power. Neither is believed.
And I am deeply grieved that you ignore all my efforts to explain things to you - and this is why I tend to think it is your desire to be offended.

The sad thing is that I could place literally hundreds or even thousands of prayers and hymns to Mary on these boards that show again and again that it is not the Mary of the Bible....sure some of the things attributed to her are correct....but the vast majority elevate her to a god-like status, and this has nothing to do with the L-rds mother that we know and love from Scripture.

It is even sadder that you would not care to listen to others presenting their own beliefs and understandings, and instead prefer to tacitly claim they lie to you or worse.

I have gradually realised that just as false Messiahs have been promoted through such teachings as the Mormons or JW's...in which they call Him Jesus, but in actual fact the things they believe about Him, demonstrate they do not know Him. So in a similar way part of the Church have a distorted view about Mary which is why I have found it so hard to understand...but now I think I see that it is another Mary.

If this is a true concern of yours, why would you not be extraordinarily cautious about distorting what another says to you ? "He who is not trustworthy in the small matter ..."

You can say what you like...the very words of the hymns you sing or the prayers you offer to this false Mary, are far more eloquent than your empty denials.

So you explicitly accuse me of false testimony ?
And of false worship ?
Despite what I say ?

Then of course, if you will to believe this of me, there is indeed no value in continuing the dialogue - indeed, thus there never was a dialogue.

I don't deny that might be a poor translation....I didn't know any better, and got it from what I believe was an Orthodox site. I only deride the game played with semantics, which always takes the heat off the heart of the issue, and re-directs the argument down a side alley.

Semantics may carry for you a pejorative meaning, but that is semantics -- the linguistic study of the meaning of language. It is a study (like sociolinguistics) which identifies the closer meaning of a term within its cultural and historic mileau, and is essential for matters such as the translation of the Holy Scriptures. Without it, you would not have a translation of the Scriptures - and unfortunately some translations of the Scriptures into English could use a bit more semantic analysis as they fall well short of the Greek sense of the original.

We cannot communicate without first understanding where our use of the same terminology does and does not 'cross'. And without establishing commonly understood meaning/territory, there will not be dialogue - no matter how much we think we are engaging in dialogue.

You are wrong...I am not personally offended about any of this....but I am deeply concerned that such blatantly false teachings should continue unchallenged. I don't get any pleasure coming against these things again and again...it gives me no joy saying 'brethren this isn't right, we need to ditch some of these teachings/practices etc'.

If you have "no personal stake" in this, then why do you refuse to listen and consider what is said to you, to try to actually understand, instead preferring to assume the worst of the person you claim to desire to "help" ?
IE, your refusal to "hear" and your insistence that others are not being straight with you (ex., claiming semantics etc.) approach the psychological meaning of suspicion - not love. How can you actually humanly contact - dialogue - when you are suspicious or worse that others deliberately lie to you ?

I don't know what you mean about foreign policies...all I can say is to repeat that until I came here about four months ago, I had no real idea that my Catholic and Orthodox brethren believed some of the things we now argue and discuss...and it troubles my spirit more than I can express...which is why I am compelled to plead for the truth.

But not enough interest in truth to consider that some may answer you truthfully. Or that truth must include context and meaning.

I have also made it very clear that I do not consider myself on any side....I am part of the One Body....not Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant or any other faction....but part of the One True Church made up of Believers washed in the blood of the Lamb....and because of that I cannot keep silent.

And because I am a member of the body of Christ, I answer you truthfully and receive in return accusation.

If the hat doesn't fit, don't wear it.

In no instance is it yours to decide.

The Hymn asked Mary to cleanse us from all evil....she does not have either the power or the authority to do such a thing....only G-d. Therefore I am not bearing false witness....I am pointing out that such a thing is blasphemous because it implies she can do what only G-d can do....it is completely ridiculous.

I have described this before and above - your claims are false.

If you want to continue to justify praise and worship to a false man-made facsimile of the L-rds mother...that is your choice...all the hundreds of years of practice, and the endorsement of foolish men in leadership positions can no longer hide what is now so obvious.

It seems you are not willing to actually engage in a dialogue.
That's okay.
I do wish you would have been honest on this from the beginning, as I could have saved much time and applied myself to more potentially fruitful endeavors.

glory be to Jesus Christ +

 

[Thekla]

YouTube - The Life-giving Spring

 

[Hairy Tic]

......and for those interested, here are the words the first Hymn.

PURE VIRGIN QUEEN, IMMACULATE MOTHER OF GOD,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
VIRGIN MOTHER, QUEEN, COVERING US LIKE A PERFECT GARMENT
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HIGHEST OF HEAVENS, BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN'S RAYS,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
DELIGHT OF VIRGIN CHOIRS, SUPREME OF ALL ANGELS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
BRIGHTER THAN THE SKIES, CLEARER THAN LIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HOLIEST OF ALL HEAVENLY LEGIONS OF SAINTS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, QUEEN NYMPH, SOURCE OF OUR DELIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MODEST MAIDEN, QUEEN, HOLIEST MOTHER
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MOST HONOURED OF CHEROUVEIM, MOST GLORIOUS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
OF THE BODILESS SERAPHEIM HIGHEST OF ALL THRONES
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, EVER VIRGIN LADY OF THE UNIVERSE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
IMMACULATE, ALL PURE NYMPH, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU OUR LADY HEAR YOUR SUPPLICANT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
YOUR BLESSING I SEEK, QUEEN.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MAIDEN MODEST, IMMACULATE, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU, SACRED TEMPLE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
TAKE NOTICE OF ME AND CLEANSE ME FROM ALL EVIL,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
AND INTERCEDE FOR ME TO EARN THE ETERNAL LIFE.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

​

...............................................................................................

I wish I could rejoice and sing this hymn...but I can't, it is so obviously rife with literal unequivocal worship of Mary that it demonstrates beyond any doubt that the whole semantic word games that try to show she is merely venerated, and people just honour her, are utterly false....nor is there any ambiguity to the context, it is a hymn of praise and adoration that attributes G-ds sovereign authority to her.

## Wrong. STM that we, who use these hymns and prayers, are likely to know our own intentions, and what we mean by the words & ideas we use. You may think we are going too far, but our attitude to the Mother of God hads been explained time and time again.

Would you put up with a Muslim telling what you mean by praising Jesus Christ ? Then please allow us to know whether we are giving the Mother of God what we should not.

It is undoubtably blasphemous,

## No more so than worshipping a crucified Jew as Almighty God is. To those who do not see Him aright, that is all He is. To those who see who do not see what great things God has done in & for her, Mary the Mother of God is just another woman. Catholic & other non-Protestants see what her Son is, and what she is. Fundamentalists see what her Son is, but not what she is.

but tradition, devotion and religious music disguise the enormity of what is happening when one lifts Mary up in worship like this.

## It is not false - you Fundamentalists are the ones who give a title of God the Son to a mere dead book, so don't try lecturing Catholics & Orthodox & members of other ancient churches about blasphemy. If OTOH that book - set of books, rather - is rightly called the Word of God, then what forbids Catholics to call her by titles which properly & fully describe her Son ? If the Bible is anything, it is through the Life-giving Spirit. And the same is true of Mary.

If 1800 years of Christians have done wrong to honour Mary

• not in one place but the world over
• & as Christians wonderful for their God-given holiness have rejoiced to honour Mary
• to speak good things of her
• to defend the rightness of honouring her
• & as those who are separated by many divisions have agreed in praising her
• & as many have arisen in the past to criticise, not abuses only, but the rightness of praising her at all
  
• - so the objections to doing so are not new
• & as converts have been among the most zealous in spreading devotion to Mary
• - some of whom were anti-Christian & anti-Marian
• & as the Protestant churches, who feared that devotion to Mary was obscuring Christ, discouraged devotion to her, and are losing adoration of Him; whereas those whom they called "Mariolatrous" have kept both adoration of Him, & veneration of His Mother.

- is it credible that the Church of Christ could be so utterly mistaken ? To except people to believe such a thing, is asking far too much. That is as credible as the rubbish about her Son being an alien or a hundred other kinds of nonsense.

When we offer the Eucharistic Sacrifice to her, you will be right to complain that we adore her - but not before.

It has nothing to do with the Mary of Scripture, so I have no compunction in condemning this religious disfigurement and unholy caricature of the mother of Jesus...it merely brings shame upon the Body and also demonstrates the reality of Isaiah 5:20 which says:-

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

I believe anyone who reads the words of this hymn...which is symptomatic of myriad other such hymns...should be deeply troubled by the content.

## Not in the slightest. There are others like it, which praise the mother of God on very simlar terms, and that is as it should be. She is worthy of praise and honour and love and devotion, entirely worthy. To se her as the Church sees her is something that for many takes time. And some have eyes to see, while others do not.

Why is it not obvious that the language is at times metaphorical, & necessarily so ? She is more, not less, than any mortal tongue can say. Calling her "Brighter than the sun's rays" is not an expression of an astronomical measurement; it does not mean that she is of the same temperature as Aldebaran or Antares. It is the fault of Fundamentalism, if it cannot distinguish between a hymn to the Virgin & statements of scientific fact. If Fundamentalists can't see the difference between honouring, loving, venerating, admiring & praising the Mother of God OTOH, and the God Whose Wisdom created her for Himself that she might be the Mother of the Son of God, Who is her Creator, Lord, Redeemer, Saviour & God OTOH, then the's no point in trying to show that the Mother of God, & her Divine Son, though very alike, are incommensurable. For Who is unable to see that God is not a creature, & that therefore the holiest of creatures, Mary the Mother of God, cannot possibly be mistaken for her God ? If she is not God, how ius it possible to honour her as though she were ?

To God Almighty the Liturgy is offered; never to the Mother of God. Such a thing is out of the question, because the Church knows very well that sacrifice, an act of adoration, can be offered to God alone. We do not adore the Mother of God. Is the respect shown to those in authority sinful ? By normal Fundamentalist logic it must be - if it not wrong to show honour to those who may be great sinners, but are reckoned honourable because of the offices they hold, how can it be wrong to show honour to Jesus Christ by show respect, love and veneration for those through whom He has glorified Himself ?

May G-d remove the scales from our eyes.