The Assumption of Mary

[laconicstudent]

It is easy to see into people's hearts when one looks at people's actions and words.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

You might want to consider what implications this has for you before you start telling other people what they believe. Its frankly absurd.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Balderdash!

There is nothing idolatrous about believing in the Assumption. That is nothing more than your unsupported opinion.Catholics offer adoration and worship [latria] to God alone and veneration and honor above all the other saints [hyperdulia] to the Mother of God alone. In the words of St. Bernard of Clairveaux, Doctor of the Church: "Observe whose mother she is." The dogma of the Assumption stands on the dogma of the Immaculate Conception [Mary's preservation from the stain of original sin by divine intervention], so if Catholics had believed in the Assumption without first having understood that Mary was exempt from incurring the penalty of sin and death, then by all means they would have committed idolatry. Because our Lady isn't subject to the universal law of sin, as the rest of us are, she justly precedes us in the glory of the resurrection with Christ as the firstfruits.

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ, the firstfruits; then at his coming, those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15, 22-23

"Behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
The Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name."
Luke 1, 48-49 [NAB]

Belief in Mary's freedom from all stain of sin had existed by the 3rd century. So naturally the faithful were inclined to believe that Mary was taken bodily to heaven, in light of her empty tomb. If she were still interred, the early Christians would have preserved and kept her remains as a sacred relic for veneration, as were the remains of the saints and martyrs of post-apostolic time according to early Church custom.

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from prutidity and corruption."
Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me [ante A.D. 235]

"Arise, LORD, come to your resting place, you and your majestic ark."
Psalm 132, 8 [NAB]

In his Infancy Narrative, Luke presents Mary as the ark of the New Covenant while recounting her visit to Elizabeth by referring to the Second Book of Samuel. His gospel bears witness to this sacred Tradition of apostolic time in Palestine: a regional and private tradition that eventually had reached universal proportion in the Hellenistic world. To be consistent in their invocation of Mary as a type of pure and incorrupt ark of the Covenant, they couldn't have been disinclined to believe in her bodily Assumption into heaven. The fact that there are no written works which explicitly address this great event in the life of Mary until the 6th century is inconsequential. It would be fallacious to presume that the faithful of the nascent and early Church held no belief in this great merciful deed of God in salvation history because we have no extant written works in our possession. But the Assumption could have been orally preached, which is strongly apparent. The first know feast day celebrating this marvelous event was established in Palestine in the 5th century. Modern Christians who are separated from the historic apostolic Christian faith must rely on extant written works to confirm what has been revealed and believed in by Christians through the early centuries. But for Catholics, since early time, the Assumption has been a living and dynamic tradition that has developed over time.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
2 Thessalonians 2, 15 [NAB]

Pax Christu

Scripture tells us that all generations will call Mary Blessed; how's that for "Sola Scriptura"!

Beautyful Icon!

Like I said, Mary is an idol to the Catholic church. She is worshiped above God. That is evident by the defense her worshipers speak.

Sounds like you have never been to a RC Mass; or a Lutheran one for that matter. I am sorry that you carry so much bias against those who worship our Lord in a manner that is different than yours.

Our Lord honored His mother, Scripture honors her, and the Church has, and continues to honor her. If we choose to disregard these facts, then we not only dishonor Mary, but her Son who loved and honored her in full perfection; a perfection which try as we may, we can not even honor our own mothers with!

 

[Rhamiel]

Mark
you bring up a good point
Studious One, have you ever been to a Catholic Mass?

 

[Studious One]

Mark
you bring up a good point
Studious One, have you ever been to a Catholic Mass?

Don't have to. I have seen videos of the Mass in the news and on EWTN.

Very paganistic rituals interwoven in readings of Scripture.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

love is love
they see that we love Mary and they yell "this is worship!!"


we are ment to love God above all else
but we are also made to love others
we were made in His image... what does this really mean? I think... that in part, it means we are ment to love love love love love
true love, deep love, of giving of ourself
we love God, and we love His angels and saints
We love Mary
not more then God

Not more than God, but because of God!

 

[lovernotafighter]

How does praying count as worship? I just sent a prayer to a district court clerk praying for a deferment from jury service. Do I worship the clerk now?

How does it NOT count as worship? If bowing does, then praying does.
Oh please, you're more intelligent than that. You weren't doing that in a religious context and it isn't even the same use of the word prayer.

Acts 10

25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

PS. You never responded to my point about bowing down to people/icons/staues.

 

[laconicstudent]

Don't have to. I have seen videos of the Mass in the news and on EWTN.

Very paganistic rituals interwoven in readings of Scripture.

So no, you've never been to one.

 

[laconicstudent]

How does it NOT count as worship? If bowing does, then praying does.

Repeating yourself isn't going to do anything.

Oh please, you're more intelligent than that. You weren't doing that in a religious context and it isn't even the same use of the word prayer.

The fact that I am doing it in a religious context does nothing to effect what I am doing. I prayed to the clerk of the court for a boon (a deferment). I prayed to the Mother of God for a boon (her prayers). Neither is worship.

Acts 10

Feel free to elaborate anytime.

PS. You never responded to my point about bowing down to people/icons/staues.

Because its patently ridiculous.

Bowing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"
Bowing (also called stooping) is the act of lowering the torso and head as a social gesture in direction to another person or symbol. It is most prominent in Asian cultures but it is also typical of nobility and aristocracy in many countries and distinctively in Europe. Sometimes the gesture may be limited to lowering the head. It is especially prominent in China, Korea, India, Taiwan, Japan, and Vietnam where it may be executed standing or kneeling."


Do I really have to explain further to you that bowing is a social gesture?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Don't have to. I have seen videos of the Mass in the news and on EWTN.

Very paganistic rituals interwoven in readings of Scripture.

Pagan?

Our Liturgical traditions originate in worship forms mandated by God to His people in the OT. The Christianization of these forms came in the 1st. century. We know this from the Didicahe; which BTW is where the Doxology "for Thine is the kingdom..." comes from. I'm sure you use it, but it's not found in the Bible either.

Sola Scrptura is fine, but so are traditions which are neither condemned or forbiden by Scriputre, even though one may not find them there.

 

[lovernotafighter]

Repeating yourself isn't going to do anything.



The fact that I am doing it in a religious context does nothing to effect what I am doing. I prayed to the clerk of the court for a boon (a deferment). I prayed to the Mother of God for a boon (her prayers). Neither is worship.



Feel free to elaborate anytime.



Because its patently ridiculous.

Bowing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"
Bowing (also called stooping) is the act of lowering the torso and head as a social gesture in direction to another person or symbol. It is most prominent in Asian cultures but it is also typical of nobility and aristocracy in many countries and distinctively in Europe. Sometimes the gesture may be limited to lowering the head. It is especially prominent in China, Korea, India, Taiwan, Japan, and Vietnam where it may be executed standing or kneeling."


Do I really have to explain further to you that bowing is a social gesture?

You really didn't pray to him. You asked him not to do jury duty.
Religious context is very important.

As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

You see that he bowed out of reverence for Peter's spiritual standing, not because it was a simple greeting!

 

[laconicstudent]

You really didn't pray to him. You asked him not to do jury duty.

Read a dictionary. They are the same thing.

Religious context is very important.

You don't explain how.

You see that he bowed out of reverence for Peter's spiritual standing, not because it was a simple greeting!

Oh please, that isn't a bow. That's groveling on the ground. When I meet my local abbot, I take his blessing and kiss his hand, which he is fine with. If I fell down and groveled at his feet, he'd probably snap at me just like St. Peter did to St. Cornelius.

 

[Studious One]

Pagan?

Our Liturgical traditions originate in worship forms mandated by God to His people in the OT. The Christianization of these forms came in the 1st. century. We know this from the Didicahe; which BTW is where the Doxology "for Thine is the kingdom..." comes from. I'm sure you use it, but it's not found in the Bible either.

Sola Scrptura is fine, but so are traditions which are neither condemned or forbiden by Scriputre, even though one may not find them there.

Your teaching that Mary is the mother of all Christians is mandated by God? Really?

Please show me in Scripture where I can find that tidbit of information.

 

[laconicstudent]

Your teaching that Mary is the mother of all Christians is mandated by God? Really?

Please show me in Scripture where I can find that tidbit of information.

"
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman,[b] here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.'






And from the Akathist to the Theotokos, Joy of All Who Sorrow,



Ikos 5
Beholding Thee crucified with Him in Thy heart and standing with His beloved disciple by the Cross, Thy Son and God did say: Woman, behold Thy son, and to His disciple: Behold thy mother, thereby giving Thee as sons all that believe in Him. And having in Thee a good mother, placing all our hope in Thee amid our sorrow, as partakers of the sorrows and sufferings of Thy Son, we cry to Thee:
Rejoice, mother of the Christian race!
Rejoice, Thou that didst adopt us at the Cross of Thy Son!
Rejoice, Thou that didst unite God with mankind!
Rejoice, Thou that didst join the faithful to the Lord!
Rejoice, ewe that didst bear the Lamb that taketh away the sin of the world!
Rejoice, cup that drawest joy for us from the Fountain of Immortality!
Rejoice, surety of the salvation of sinners!
Rejoice, search for the perishing!
Rejoice, unexpected joy of sinners!
Rejoice, raising up of all the fallen!
Rejoice, healer of all infirmities!
Rejoice, alleviation of every sorrow!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!


Kontakion 6
O Mother of God, all the ends of the earth proclaim Thy mercies, for by Thy sacred protection Thou dost shelter the whole Christian race for which Thou dost supplicate Christ our Savior and dost deliver from all misfortune Thy pious and God-fearing servants who faithfully cry out to God:
Alleluia!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Your teaching that Mary is the mother of all Christians is mandated by God? Really?

Please show me in Scripture where I can find that tidbit of information.

I did not say that, I said that we must honor her as her Son did, as Scripture shows us.

 

[Studious One]

"
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman,[b] here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.'

Better get some new glasses, that passage does not say Mary is the Mother of all Christians. Nor does it say that all Christians took her into their home.

 

[Studious One]

I did not say that, I said that we must honor her as her Son did, as Scripture shows us.

Where does Scripture tell us to honor her? All I can find concerning what people will say concerning her is that they will call her blessed.

I have no doubt she was blessed.

But there is not a single passage that says we are to honor Mary.

Why, Jesus did not even honor her in the following passage:

Matthew 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[Dylan Michael]

SO, Tell me this what verse in the bible mandates Sola Scriptura?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Where does Scripture tell us to honor her? All I can find concerning what people will say concerning her is that they will call her blessed.

I have no doubt she was blessed.

But there is not a single passage that says we are to honor Mary.

Why, Jesus did not even honor her in the following passage:

Matthew 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

If you are using the above quote to prove that we should dishonor Mary, you are way off base.

In vs. 48-50 our Lord is telling us that the spiritual family of believers (which includes His earthly family) take priority over his earthly family; and that doing the Father's will we identify ourselves as members of the family of Jesus.

We can turn this around. If our Lord God Jesus Christ sees the family of believers as His family, should we not also, as believers, see the family of believers (which includes His earthly family) as our family also? Seems to me that this is a given, considering we are to emulate Christ.

 

[Rhamiel]

Your teaching that Mary is the mother of all Christians is mandated by God? Really?

Please show me in Scripture where I can find that tidbit of information.

if you rea the Bible you will see that the Christians are called "members of the Body of Christ"
by St.Paul in his letters to the Corinthians and other places too

so if we are part of the body of Christ
then Mary is our Mother

 

[Studious One]

if you rea the Bible you will see that the Christians are called "members of the Body of Christ"
by St.Paul in his letters to the Corinthians and other places too

so if we are part of the body of Christ
then Mary is our Mother

Mary is not our mother.