The Assumption of Mary

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by DiligentlySeekingGod

The Church is not a building or a particular church or denomination. According to Scripture, the Universal Church is the body of Christ—all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13). It is made up of all believers in Christ from the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2) until His return. In Scripture, the Church (all those who are truly saved) is called “one body in Christ” in Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 1:17, 1 Corinthians 12:27, Ephesians 4:12; 6:23, Colossians 1:24, and Hebrews 13:3.
​

I'm afraid I think you are interpreting Scripture incorrectly in this case.

That is just a lame and lazy retort...Scripture is not open to private interpretation...it says what it means...there may be certain passages we wrestle with because there is a degree of ambiguity...but with what DSG has posted it is completely self explanatory, and it is disengenuous to dismiss it so lightly....here let me open up some of the passages for everyone to see, and judge for themselves what makes up the Universal Church (Body of Messiah, Body of Believers)....and let me add that no interpretation is necessary....it is not a parable, nor allegorical....even a non-believer can see what is being said....and I am not approaching this with any denominational slant, purely as a Believer in Messiah.

John 3: 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

1Corinthians 12:12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.


1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it:

Colossians 1: 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. 25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

The Bible was eventually collated by a group of Believers, scholars and men in authority...what they did was agree on what was being used in the surrounding communities of Believers as inspired by the Holy Ghost, and what wasn't....their task was merely to confirm what had been the tradition and accepted norm for several hundred years.

It is ironic, that such emphasis is placed upon their role, almost as if it gives the Catholic body of Believers the authority to dictate what Scripture means, simply because under the guidence of the Holy Spirit some of their number at that time were obedient to the direction of the Holy Spirit.

It is even more ironic that many of their number will not subject themselves to the very words that they claim to hold so much store by...that is why in these discussions and arguments the vast majority of Catholics and Orthodox will not use Scripture...simply because it would mean having to submit to it.

All that happens is that the old counter-argument gets wheeled out, and tries to prove that Peter had these miraculous keys that give him and his spiritual descendants (read Rome) sole and permanent authority, and that all other Believers have no solid foundation for their faith, as they simply believe whatever takes their fancy. I would think that just a cursory glance at the history of the Catholic Church and the sins committed at the highest levels over the ages, would be ample demonstration, that perfection does not lie within their gates.

Well said, Zazal.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

That is just a lame and lazy retort...Scripture is not open to private interpretation...it says what it means...there may be certain passages we wrestle with because there is a degree of ambiguity...but with what DSG has posted it is completely self explanatory, and it is disengenuous to dismiss it so lightly....here let me open up some of the passages for everyone to see, and judge for themselves what makes up the Universal Church (Body of Messiah, Body of Believers)....and let me add that no interpretation is necessary....it is not a parable, nor allegorical....even a non-believer can see what is being said....and I am not approaching this with any denominational slant, purely as a Believer in Messiah.

John 3: 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

1Corinthians 12:12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.


1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it:

Colossians 1: 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. 25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I thought his retort was rather lame and lazy myself.

I await his response to my reply in which I asked him to elaborate on how he thinks I misinterpreted each of the Scriptures I posted.

 

[Studious One]

The only time we see this fail, is when individuals and denominations, through reason, or looking at Scripture through the eyes of secular humanists start to pick and choose or look to other sources to give context to Scripture. Doing such is outside the authority given to the church; when such happens, it dishonors the Holy Spirit, dishonoring God, IMO.

In other words, since the doctrines of Mary's perpetual virginity, Mary being Co-Redeemer Co-Mediatrix and Advocate, Mary being Queen of Heaven, Mary being full of grace, Mary giving out signal graces, the doctrine of purgatory, etc., are not found in the Word of God, they bring dishonor to God.

I fully agree.

 

[Dylan Michael]

In other words, since the doctrines of Mary's perpetual virginity, Mary being Co-Redeemer Co-Mediatrix and Advocate, Mary being Queen of Heaven, Mary being full of grace, Mary giving out signal graces, the doctrine of purgatory, etc., are not found in the Word of God, they bring dishonor to God.

I fully agree.

Computers aren't in the word of God.
Cars aren't the word of God.
Hospitals aren't in the word of God.
Altar calls aren't in the word of God
Sola Scriptura isn't in the word of God
"Believers' Baptisms" aren't in the word of God.

The bring dishonor to God.

 

[justinangel]

It seems to me that the evidence of the assumption of Mary is questionable, at best. Why believe this? What possible benefit to salvation does this belief have?

Also, why is it considered to be "blasphemous" to deny that this happened?

If Mary hadn't been assumed into heaven by the power of her divine Son, our Lord's perfect love and honour towards his mother, with respect to the observance of his heavenly Father's law, would be questionable. We believe in the Assumption because we have faith in our Lord's perfect love for his mother and heavenly Father. Belief in the Assumption isn't a question of whether our personal salvation is at stake. Such an attitude borders on selfishness. To deny that Jesus has no perfect love for his mother and would observe his heavenly Father's law is blasphemous. Jesus observed all of his Father's commandments while on earth and certainly would not dismiss any of them as the Son of Man in heaven, considering we in our humanity are expected to follow God's laws in perfect imitation of Christ. There is plenty of implicit scriptural evidence that Mary is in heaven body and soul in hopeful anticipation of the redemption of our own bodies on the last day. She precedes us in the order of grace in virtue of her divine maternity.

"There is only one Physician [one divine Personality], having both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God become man, true life in death, from Mary and from God, first passible and then impassible -- Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians 7, 2 [c.A.D 110]

Pax Christu

 

[Studious One]

Computers aren't in the word of God.
Cars aren't the word of God.
Hospitals aren't in the word of God.
Altar calls aren't in the word of God
Sola Scriptura isn't in the word of God
"Believers' Baptisms" aren't in the word of God.

The bring dishonor to God.

Actually, altar calls are indeed in the Bible. I'll let you look that up (Hint: look in the Pentateuch)

Sola Scriptura simply means that Scripture is all one needs in matters of faith, doctrine and practice. And it is just as true as the fact that Jesus died on a cross.
2 Timothy 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

This passage alone proves Sola Scriptura is indeed Scriptural.

Scripture makes one wise unto Salvaiton. In other words, if one had nothing but the Bible, it would be enough to lead that one to saving faith in Christ.

Scripture is able to make a man perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Clearly, Sola Scriptura is taught in the Word of God.

As to Believer's Baptism, I have already posted the verses. Your claiming it is not there will not make it go away.

Cars, computers and hospitals? Those are not doctines, so clearly you are desparately grasping at straws.

 

[Zeek]

Computers aren't in the word of God.
Cars aren't the word of God.
Hospitals aren't in the word of God.
Altar calls aren't in the word of God
Sola Scriptura isn't in the word of God
"Believers' Baptisms" aren't in the word of God.

They bring dishonor to God.

Dylan, I have to agree with Studious about clutching at straws, this is not an argument, it is a non-sensical retort.

What some of us have been trying to emphasize is that somes parts of the Body of Messiah (in this instance Catholic and Orthodox), have adopted teachings and traditions that not only run contrary to sound doctrine, but actuall promote unbiblical practices that break the direct commandments of G-d.

I don't bring these things up because I want to 'knock' someones faith, but because I want all of us to be the best we can be under the unction of the Holy Ghost...I am sure we all have areas in our understanding that don't quite line up with biblical truth....but to cling to them in the face of hard evidence and Scriptural authority is wrong....and seems to come from a sectarian outlook which is also wrong/unhelpful.

If I can't talk about these things in the love of Jesus, then I wouldn't...but the Church at large needs to wake up and smell the coffee, and put its own house in order....and to stop clinging to teachings and practices that work against the Spirit of Holiness, that divide instead of uniting, and promote the teaching of men above that of G-d Himself.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Just a reminder to us all...

The Greatest Gift

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13 (NKJV)

 

[Zeek]

Thanks for that DSG....timely.

I want to say to any of my Catholic and Orthodox brethren with whom I strongly disagree over certain doctrines, that none of it is personal, none of it is ever meant to be an attack on you, I love you as individual members of the Body, I pray for you to be encouraged and strengthened in the inner man through the ministrations of the Holy Ghost, and I acknowledge that our unity is in our Saviour, without whom none of us would be able to draw near to the Throne of Grace.

With agape love. Zazal

 

[justinangel]

<Staff Edit>

Balderdash!

There is nothing idolatrous about believing in the Assumption. That is nothing more than your unsupported opinion.Catholics offer adoration and worship [latria] to God alone and veneration and honor above all the other saints [hyperdulia] to the Mother of God alone. In the words of St. Bernard of Clairveaux, Doctor of the Church: "Observe whose mother she is." The dogma of the Assumption stands on the dogma of the Immaculate Conception [Mary's preservation from the stain of original sin by divine intervention], so if Catholics had believed in the Assumption without first having understood that Mary was exempt from incurring the penalty of sin and death, then by all means they would have committed idolatry. Because our Lady isn't subject to the universal law of sin, as the rest of us are, she justly precedes us in the glory of the resurrection with Christ as the firstfruits.

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ, the firstfruits; then at his coming, those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15, 22-23

"Behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
The Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name."
Luke 1, 48-49 [NAB]

Belief in Mary's freedom from all stain of sin had existed by the 3rd century. So naturally the faithful were inclined to believe that Mary was taken bodily to heaven, in light of her empty tomb. If she were still interred, the early Christians would have preserved and kept her remains as a sacred relic for veneration, as were the remains of the saints and martyrs of post-apostolic time according to early Church custom.

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from prutidity and corruption."
Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me [ante A.D. 235]

"Arise, LORD, come to your resting place, you and your majestic ark."
Psalm 132, 8 [NAB]

In his Infancy Narrative, Luke presents Mary as the ark of the New Covenant while recounting her visit to Elizabeth by referring to the Second Book of Samuel. His gospel bears witness to this sacred Tradition of apostolic time in Palestine: a regional and private tradition that eventually had reached universal proportion in the Hellenistic world. To be consistent in their invocation of Mary as a type of pure and incorrupt ark of the Covenant, they couldn't have been disinclined to believe in her bodily Assumption into heaven. The fact that there are no written works which explicitly address this great event in the life of Mary until the 6th century is inconsequential. It would be fallacious to presume that the faithful of the nascent and early Church held no belief in this great merciful deed of God in salvation history because we have no extant written works in our possession. But the Assumption could have been orally preached, which is strongly apparent. The first know feast day celebrating this marvelous event was established in Palestine in the 5th century. Modern Christians who are separated from the historic apostolic Christian faith must rely on extant written works to confirm what has been revealed and believed in by Christians through the early centuries. But for Catholics, since early time, the Assumption has been a living and dynamic tradition that has developed over time.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
2 Thessalonians 2, 15 [NAB]

Pax Christu

 

[laconicstudent]

 

[Studious One]

Balderdash!

There is nothing idolatrous about believing in the Assumption. That is nothing more than your unsupported opinion.Catholics offer adoration and worship [latria] to God alone and veneration and honor above all the other saints [hyperdulia] to the Mother of God alone. In the words of St. Bernard of Clairveaux, Doctor of the Church: "Observe whose mother she is." The dogma of the Assumption stands on the dogma of the Immaculate Conception [Mary's preservation from the stain of original sin by divine intervention], so if Catholics had believed in the Assumption without first having understood that Mary was exempt from incurring the penalty of sin and death, then by all means they would have committed idolatry. Because our Lady isn't subject to the universal law of sin, as the rest of us are, she justly precedes us in the glory of the resurrection with Christ as the firstfruits.

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ, the firstfruits; then at his coming, those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15, 22-23

"Behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
The Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name."
Luke 1, 48-49 [NAB]

Belief in Mary's freedom from all stain of sin had existed by the 3rd century. So naturally the faithful were inclined to believe that Mary was taken bodily to heaven, in light of her empty tomb. If she were still interred, the early Christians would have preserved and kept her remains as a sacred relic for veneration, as were the remains of the saints and martyrs of post-apostolic time according to early Church custom.

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from prutidity and corruption."
Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me [ante A.D. 235]

"Arise, LORD, come to your resting place, you and your majestic ark."
Psalm 132, 8 [NAB]

In his Infancy Narrative, Luke presents Mary as the ark of the New Covenant while recounting her visit to Elizabeth by referring to the Second Book of Samuel. His gospel bears witness to this sacred Tradition of apostolic time in Palestine: a regional and private tradition that eventually had reached universal proportion in the Hellenistic world. To be consistent in their invocation of Mary as a type of pure and incorrupt ark of the Covenant, they couldn't have been disinclined to believe in her bodily Assumption into heaven. The fact that there are no written works which explicitly address this great event in the life of Mary until the 6th century is inconsequential. It would be fallacious to presume that the faithful of the nascent and early Church held no belief in this great merciful deed of God in salvation history because we have no extant written works in our possession. But the Assumption could have been orally preached, which is strongly apparent. The first know feast day celebrating this marvelous event was established in Palestine in the 5th century. Modern Christians who are separated from the historic apostolic Christian faith must rely on extant written works to confirm what has been revealed and believed in by Christians through the early centuries. But for Catholics, since early time, the Assumption has been a living and dynamic tradition that has developed over time.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
2 Thessalonians 2, 15 [NAB]

Pax Christu

Like I said, Mary is an idol to the Catholic church. She is worshiped above God. That is evident by the defense her worshipers speak.

 

[justinangel]

Like I said, Mary is an idol to the Catholic church. She is worshiped above God. That is evident by the defense her worshipers speak.

Nothing but biased wishful thinking and total ignorance on your part.

 

[Studious One]

Nothing but biased wishful thinking and total ignorance on your part.

Not ignorance on my part at all. The very words of the Catholics reveal how much they worship Mary. Their rosaries, their bowing to her, their praying to her, their elevating her to queen of heaven, their making her comediatrix, coredeemer and advocate, .... all these reveal the hearts of the Catholic and the position Mary holds in their eyes.

 

[laconicstudent]

Not ignorance on my part at all. The very words of the Catholics reveal how much they worship Mary. Their rosaries, their bowing to her, their praying to her, their elevating her to queen of heaven, their making her comediatrix, coredeemer and advocate, .... all these reveal the hearts of the Catholic and the position Mary holds in their eyes.

None of those are acts of worship. I find it creepy how some people insist they can see into people's hearts.

 

[lovernotafighter]

None of those are acts of worship. I find it creepy how some people insist they can see into people's hearts.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them;

Both are forbidden, even if bowing down to doesn't qualify as worship in itself, praying to certainly does.

 

[laconicstudent]

Both are forbidden, even if bowing down to doesn't qualify as worship in itself, praying to certainly does.

How does praying count as worship? I just sent a prayer to a district court clerk praying for a deferment from jury service. Do I worship the clerk now?

 

[Rhamiel]

love is love
they see that we love Mary and they yell "this is worship!!"

Valentines Day was last week, I saw people spend a lot of money on their lovers, a lot of time too, I know a guy who wrote a song for his girlfriend and got her a ruby necklace, I know a husband who got 24 red roses for his wife and took her out to dinner, I know a girl who works full time and goes to University find the time to cook a 5 course meal from scratch for her boyfriend of 4 years
is a boyfriend an idol? (i am not asking "can relationships be bad and people make an idol out of lovers" I am asking if loving someone automatically makes the other person an idol?"

we are ment to love God above all else
but we are also made to love others
we were made in His image... what does this really mean? I think... that in part, it means we are ment to love love love love love
true love, deep love, of giving of ourself
we love God, and we love His angels and saints
We love Mary
not more then God

 

[Studious One]

None of those are acts of worship. I find it creepy how some people insist they can see into people's hearts.

It is easy to see into people's hearts when one looks at people's actions and words.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.