The Assumption of Mary

addo · Feb 20, 2011

Studious One said:
Where does Scripture tell us to honor her? All I can find concerning what people will say concerning her is that they will call her blessed.

I have no doubt she was blessed.

But there is not a single passage that says we are to honor Mary.

Why, Jesus did not even honor her in the following passage:

Matthew 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

I feel that I should add something.

Jesus Christ had another opportunity -even a better one than the one above- to show that Christians should treat Mary in a more special way:

"And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!" But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28)

Jesus had the perfect opportunity to elevate Mary for bringing Him into the world and raising Him but He didn't. He actually taught us the contrary! Mary is just as blessed as any other person who hears the word of God and keeps it! Is Mary blessed? Indeed, for she obeyed God. But also every other person who obeys God is blessed. This means that if one is to raise Mary because she was blessed for nursing our Lord, then that person should also raise to the same level all people that hear the word of our Lord and keep it!

To the Lord, Mary is not elevated far above the rest of the Christians. True it is that she had a special calling, but she si not the only one.

Qoheleth85 said:
if you rea the Bible you will see that the Christians are called "members of the Body of Christ"
by St.Paul in his letters to the Corinthians and other places too

so if we are part of the body of Christ
then Mary is our Mother

No. If we are part of the body of Christ, Mary is our sister, because she was part of the same body we are. Or are you saying she was not part of the body of Christ? I hope not.

MamaZ · Feb 20, 2011

Mary did not birth the Church. The HS did. This is why one must be born again.

Slaol121 · Feb 20, 2011

Mary is not our mother - she was the earthly mother of Jesus. To treat her like our mother is idolatry.

Zeek · Feb 20, 2011

Qoheleth85 said:
if you read the Bible you will see that the Christians are called "members of the Body of Christ"
by St.Paul in his letters to the Corinthians and other places too

so if we are part of the body of Christ
then Mary is our Mother

Once again Qoheleth, you are trying to mix flawed human logic with divine revelation, and your sums like 2+2=5 do not add up...it merely demonstrates a lack of carefully handling the Scriptures, and trying to make it fit your doctrinal stance.

As Addo correctly states, Mary would be our sister in the L-rd...do you really think that if any of these Marian doctrines were of tantamount importance the traditions and teachings of the Apostles would have neglected to inform us of such?

Many who firmly believe these Marian traditions seem to have a curious willingness to believe the most unbiblical teachings to the utter neglect of biblical directives...I can only presume this willful blindness comes from centuries of acknowledging un-Scriptural teachings, and believing that those like myself who try to remonstrate for biblical clarity, are merely out to sling mud and mock what might be considered 'sacred truths'.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. 9 The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

In light of what Paul states here, it is with a heavy heart that I say many Marian doctrines are not true....bring dishonour....are incorrect....impure....quaint, superficial and sentimental rather than lovely...bring the Gospel into disrepute....and they are not taught by Paul or anyone else....so why o why don't our dear brothers and sisters in Jesus that till now have believed and defended these things, submit themselves to the word of G-d and correct centuries of poor and false teachings by laying them aside and letting the blood of Jesus cleanse them from all unrighteousness...then move forward.

I am persuaded by the Spirit that such things are possible...but people need to lay hold of the truth...and stop trying to defend the indefensible....look into Scripture, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth, meditate on His words, don't lean on your own understanding and seek His Kingdom first.

DiligentlySeekingGod · Feb 20, 2011

Dylan Michael said:
SO, Tell me this what verse in the bible mandates Sola Scriptura?

This thread is not about Sola Scriptura, so to discuss it would be off-topic.

DiligentlySeekingGod · Feb 20, 2011

Well said Zazal.

justinangel · Feb 21, 2011

Studious One said:
Not ignorance on my part at all. The very words of the Catholics reveal how much they worship Mary. Their rosaries, their bowing to her, their praying to her, their elevating her to queen of heaven, their making her comediatrix, coredeemer and advocate, .... all these reveal the hearts of the Catholic and the position Mary holds in their eyes.

In Asia the students customarily stand up and bow to their teacher at the start of class out of deference - not worship. The same applies with greeting respected elders. It is out of honour and respect that we sentient beings bow when supplicating Mary in prayer that ultimately is directed to her divine Son together with her united prayerful support. It is thus for his blessed mother's sake above all that Jesus will answer our prayers. All the graces we receive are through Mary's merited intercession, whether we invoke her or not, by virtue of her intimate association with her Son in the divine work of salvation and collaboration with the Holy Spirit since her free consent at the Annunciation.

Her mediatory role between Christ (who mediates between the Father and us in his humanity, not divinity) and us is allegorically illustrated in the narrative of the wedding feast at Cana which expresses the traditional belief in apostolic time after Mary's dormition. Asking any righteous person to pray for us does not amount to worshipping her. There is no saint more righteous than our Lord's mother was, and she does serve as advocate to God's people just as the queen mother (Gebirah) of a Davidic king did in the kingdom of Judah by right of her royal maternity. Jeremiah uses the word meleketh to distinguish the pagan godess (queen of heaven) from the Davidic queen mother. The angel Gabriel greeted Mary with a salutation reserved for royal personages in ancient time: "Chaire kecharitomene!" The Judaic Christians of apostolic time traditionally perceived Mary as a type of Gebirah whose throne would naturally be situated next to her divine Son - the King of kings - in heaven where our Lord reigns.

In the Gospel of Luke we have Mary presenting her divine infant in the temple in consecration to God as her firstborn son in accord with the Judaic tradition which commemorates Abraham's willingnes to sacrifice his firstborn son of Sarah, Isaac. On this occasion Simeon provides a sound lesson for all of Christ's followers who participate in his work of salvation: expect to suffer togther with him for the salvation of souls. The apostle Paul could never have served to help save souls in his ministry if he had been unwilling to endure the hardships he faced for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. But since he was happy to suffer with and for Christ, he was able to serve our Lord in establishing his Church (Col 1:24).

When Simeon said to Mary, "And you yourself a sword shall pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed," (Lk 2:35) he was alluding to the tremendous spiritual suffering she would have to bear on account of her love for her Son with whom she was associated in her suffering on our behalf. In other words, Mary would now have to suffer in her soul having consecrated her firstborn Son to God for the satisfaction of our sins. Simeon's prophecy was fulfilled when Mary stood at the foot of the cross and had to suffer the agony of watching her beloved Son die a cruel and humiliating death. But by the fulness of grace with which she had always been endowed in perfection (kecharitomene), our Blessed Mother stood erect and endured her painful ordeal for the sake of mankind's New Covenant with God in a true spirit of faith working through love reminiscent of Abraham who merited God's blessings for his chosen people.

It is in this associative capacity that Mary is invoked as co-Redemptrix. Her faith, love, and obedience not only helped complete God's plan of salvation, but these virtues of hers appealed to the divine pleasure all the more for the satisfaction of our sins in light of Eve's disbedience and transgression. Mary made saitisfaction by right of friendship with God (meritum congruo), our Lord and Saviour made satisfaction in strict justice (meritum condigno). It is through his merits alone that ours can be honoured by the Father through his grace. We are not passive spectators in God's work of salvation - but his co-workers in and through Christ (1 Cor 3:9). Mary was no ordinary mother, but one to the paschal lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world. As a devout Jew, she understood the expiatory value of the traditional paschal sacrifices in the temple, and she saw their ultimate atoning fulfilment in the sacrifical Lamb which she willingly offered that Passover for our redemption after having already consecrated him to God in the place of Abraham. Mary was a passive spectator in that she refused to act in discordance with God's will and forfeit the grace of salvation for mankind.

"He was born of Mary the fair ewe."
Melito de Sardo, Easter Homily [c.A.D. 177]

Pax Christu

Rhamiel · Feb 21, 2011

Studious One said:
Mary is not our mother.

Prove that with Scripture, I used the Bible to show that we are part of the Body of Christ and that Mary is the Mother of Christ

addo said:
I feel that I should add something.

Jesus Christ had another opportunity -even a better one than the one above- to show that Christians should treat Mary in a more special way:

"And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!" But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28)

Jesus had the perfect opportunity to elevate Mary for bringing Him into the world and raising Him but He didn't. He actually taught us the contrary! Mary is just as blessed as any other person who hears the word of God and keeps it! Is Mary blessed? Indeed, for she obeyed God. But also every other person who obeys God is blessed. This means that if one is to raise Mary because she was blessed for nursing our Lord, then that person should also raise to the same level all people that hear the word of our Lord and keep it!

To the Lord, Mary is not elevated far above the rest of the Christians. True it is that she had a special calling, but she si not the only one.

No. If we are part of the body of Christ, Mary is our sister, because she was part of the same body we are. Or are you saying she was not part of the body of Christ? I hope not.

She is our Sister and our Mother

Blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it, read the Gospel of Luke chapter 1
Mary has heard the word of the Lord and has kept it, her prayer is as beautiful as any of the Prophets of the OT
She is double blessed, blessed with the honor of being the mother of Jesus Christ and with the honor of being a humble servant of God the most high, Jesus was responding to a woman who just saw Mary as blessed for being His mother without taking the second part into account, Jesus did not have to add that she was blessed to be His mother because the woman he was talking to allready understood that

Slaol121 said:
Mary is not our mother - she was the earthly mother of Jesus. To treat her like our mother is idolatry.

what does "earthly mother" mean?

MamaZ · Feb 21, 2011

Qoheleth85 said:
Prove that with Scripture, I used the Bible to show that we are part of the Body of Christ and that Mary is the Mother of Christ

She is our Sister and our Mother

Blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it, read the Gospel of Luke chapter 1
Mary has heard the word of the Lord and has kept it, her prayer is as beautiful as any of the Prophets of the OT
She is double blessed, blessed with the honor of being the mother of Jesus Christ and with the honor of being a humble servant of God the most high, Jesus was responding to a woman who just saw Mary as blessed for being His mother without taking the second part into account, Jesus did not have to add that she was blessed to be His mother because the woman he was talking to allready understood that

what does "earthly mother" mean?

Really. Can you show me the scripture explaining this that you have just said? I know that Jesus spoke to the people who came and told Him His mother was outside. He asked who is my mother? Scripture shows us who our mother is. It is not a person but a covenant. The Free woman. Who was not Mary. For she was born under the law.

Dylan Michael · Feb 22, 2011

MamaZ said:
Mary did not birth the Church. The HS did. This is why one must be born again.

HS? Holy Scriptures? The bible did not give birth to the church, the church is about 300 years older than the bible.

DiligentlySeekingGod · Feb 22, 2011

I think she was referring to the Holy Spirit, and not the Holy Scriptures.

MamaZ · Feb 22, 2011

Dylan Michael said:
HS? Holy Scriptures? The bible did not give birth to the church, the church is about 300 years older than the bible.

The Holy Spirit birthed the Church. Scripture was around before the church was born. For even from the OT scriptures speak of Christ.

sheina · Feb 22, 2011

MamaZ said:
The Holy Spirit birthed the Church. Scripture was around before the church was born. For even from the OT scriptures speak of Christ.

Amen! The OT was the standard for faith and practice for the Apostles before the completion of the New Testament.

justinangel · Feb 22, 2011

sheina said:
Amen! The OT was the standard for faith and practice for the Apostles before the completion of the New Testament.

The oral teachings of Christ were "the standard for faith and practice" for the apostles. The Old Testament does not hold further divine revelation concerning the New Covenant. It was after the Church was born on Pentecost that the Old Testament was interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the infallible teaching authority of the Church based on the teachings of Christ through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

"The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name -- he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you."
John 14, 26

"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you."
John 16, 12-14

The Jews have rejected the words of Christ by appealing to the Old Testament: the standard for their faith and practice together with the Talmud. What was further revealed by God was initially spoken by our Lord. Thus the Old Testament must be supplemented with the oral teachings of Christ and his apostles. They first preached what they heard from their Master and eventually understood in a clearer light by the guidance of the Paraclete. Only then could they appeal to the Old Testament to confirm their traditional beliefs. Scripture has always come from sacred Tradition. And Christ intended that it be properly interpreted in light of that tradition by the legitimate apostolic teaching authority (magisterium) of his Church. Jesus did not leave his apostles orphans (Jn 14:18) by advising them to strictly rely on the Old Testament after his departure from earth. Rather they were assured that they would come to understand what was newly revealed by our Lord's spoken word through the Holy Spirit. Church dogmas (Trinitarian, Christological, and Marian) have since developed over time through this revelatory channel under the guardianship of the divinely appointed teaching office of the Church. Neither Christ nor the Apostles set a mandate that would facilitate the passing on of Bibles to each and every individual to interpret for himself based on his own presuppositions and thereby human traditions. This very idea and practice doomed Protestantism to perpetual splintering from the start.

"Now the cause...of the false opinions, and of the impious statements or ignorant assertions about God, appears to be nothing else than the not understanding Scripture according to its spiritual meaning, but the interpretation of it agreeably to the mere letter. And, therefore, to those who believe that the sacred books are not the compositions of men, but that they were composed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, agreeably to the will of the Father of all things through Jesus Christ, and that they have come down to us, we (the universal episcopate of the Catholic Church) must point out the ways of interpreting them which appear correct to us, who cling to the standard (traditional norm) of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succession of the apostles."
Origen, First Principles 4, 1:9 [A.D. 230]

Phillip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?"
Acts 8, 30-31

Pax Christu

justinangel · Feb 22, 2011

sheina said:
Amen! The OT was the standard for faith and practice for the Apostles before the completion of the New Testament.

The oral teachings of Christ were "the standard for faith and practice" for the apostles. The Old Testament does not hold further divine revelation concerning the New Covenant. It was after the Church was born on Pentecost that the Old Testament was interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the infallible teaching authority of the Church based on the teachings of Christ through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

"The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name -- he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you."
John 14, 26

"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you."
John 16, 12-14

The Jews have rejected the words of Christ by appealing to the Old Testament: the standard for their faith and practice together with the Talmud. What was further revealed by God was initially spoken by our Lord. Thus the Old Testament must be supplemented with the oral teachings of Christ and his apostles. They first preached what they heard from their Master and eventually understood in a clearer light by the guidance of the Paraclete. Only then could they appeal to the Old Testament to confirm their traditional beliefs. Scripture has always come from sacred Tradition. And Christ intended that it be properly interpreted in light of that tradition by the legitimate apostolic teaching authority (magisterium) of his Church. Jesus did not leave his apostles orphans (Jn 14:18) by advising them to strictly rely on the Old Testament after his departure from earth. Rather they were assured that they would come to understand what was newly revealed by our Lord's spoken word through the Holy Spirit. Church dogmas (Trinitarian, Christological, and Marian) have since developed over time through this revelatory channel under the guardianship of the divinely appointed teaching office of the Church. Neither Christ nor the Apostles set a mandate that would facilitate the passing on of Bibles to each and every individual to interpret for himself based on his own presuppositions and thereby human traditions. This very idea and practice doomed Protestantism to perpetual splintering from the start.

"Now the cause...of the false opinions, and of the impious statements or ignorant assertions about God, appears to be nothing else than the not understanding Scripture according to its spiritual meaning, but the interpretation of it agreeably to the mere letter. And, therefore, to those who believe that the sacred books are not the compositions of men, but that they were composed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, agreeably to the will of the Father of all things through Jesus Christ, and that they have come down to us, we (the universal episcopate of the Catholic Church) must point out the ways of interpreting them which appear correct to us, who cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succession of the apostles."
Origen, First Principles 4, 1:9 [A.D. 230]

Phillip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?"
Acts 8, 30-31

Pax Christu

sheina · Feb 22, 2011

Was it necessary to post two of the same post to make your point, justinangel?

Christians have never been without the Scripture. The Old Testament Scriptures served as the standard of truth for the first century church (not the Catholic church)..Jew and Gentile alike. Their common conviction was that the Old Testament, properly understood, was a revelation of Christ. There they found a prophetic record of Jesus' life, teaching, death, and resurrection. Within a short time the New Testament Scriptures took their place alongside the Old Testament. For this reason, the early church was never without the written Word of God

justinangel · Feb 22, 2011

sheina said:
Was it necessary to post two of the same post to make your point, justinangel?

Christians have never been without the Scripture. The Old Testament Scriptures served as the standard of truth for the first century church (not the Catholic church)..Jew and Gentile alike. Their common conviction was that the Old Testament, properly understood, was a revelation of Christ. There they found a prophetic record of Jesus' life, teaching, death, and resurrection. Within a short time the New Testament Scriptures took their place alongside the Old Testament. For this reason, the early church was never without the written Word of God

I apologize. On my first submission the page went blank and I received an error report, so I went back and tried again. Let's not be so cynical.

laconicstudent · Feb 23, 2011

sheina said:
Was it necessary to post two of the same post to make your point, justinangel?

Christians have never been without the Scripture. The Old Testament Scriptures served as the standard of truth for the first century church (not the Catholic church)..Jew and Gentile alike. Their common conviction was that the Old Testament, properly understood, was a revelation of Christ. There they found a prophetic record of Jesus' life, teaching, death, and resurrection. Within a short time the New Testament Scriptures took their place alongside the Old Testament. For this reason, the early church was never without the written Word of God

Excuse me, but you are contradicting yourself. Was it a "short time" before we got the New Testament, or were we "never without" it?

sheina · Feb 23, 2011

laconicstudent said:
Excuse me, but you are contradicting yourself. Was it a "short time" before we got the New Testament, or were we "never without" it?

Excuse me? What does the bolded part of my post say?

Christians have never been without the Scripture.

Do you not consider the Old Testament scriptures?

The New Testament was completed during the days of the apostles:

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The New Testament was received by the believers in the early churches:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

You seem to be the one who is contradicting yourself and twisting what I said.

laconicstudent · Feb 23, 2011

sheina said:
Excuse me? What does the bolded part of my post say?

Christians have never been without the Scripture.

Do you not consider the Old Testament scriptures?

No, but I do notice a lot of Christians delete parts of it, but thats an entirely different argument.

sheina said:
The New Testament was completed during the days of the apostles:

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The New Testament was received by the believers in the early churches:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Okay, so you would be fine with saying that the Holy Scriptures were not complete when the Church was established?

sheina said:
You seem to be the one who is contradicting yourself and twisting what I said.

How kind of you.

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