The Assumption of Mary

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

It seems like a stretch of Scripture to me too, sheina.

 

[Thekla]

The Apostle Paul was NOT advocating "venerating" anybody. The Apostle Paul was continually burdened about the danger of false teaching and he was warning believers that many unregenerate false teachers would creep into the churches and would deceive many. This passage has NOTHING to do with Mary. From Romans thru Revelation, there is NO mention of Mary.

To venerate is to show honor or respect.
Judges in this country, for example, are called "your honor".

We are to imitate - per the teaching of Paul - those who are honorable, ie walk in Christ.

There is no mention of most of the Apostles from Romans thru Revelation.
Should that matter ?

 

[sheina]

To venerate is to show honor or respect.
Judges in this country, for example, are called "your honor".

"Venerate" is defined as "to solicit the goodwill of a god, worship, revere" (Random House Webster's College Dictionary)

You won't find the word "venerate" in Scripture.

We are to imitate - per the teaching of Paul - those who are honorable, ie walk in Christ.

Show us evidence in the Bible where Mary "walked" in Christ.

There is no mention of most of the Apostles from Romans thru Revelation.
Should that matter ?

How many of the Apostles do you "venerate"? It seems that your "veneration" of Mary "stands out" above almost all the Apostles which are mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Thekla]

"Venerate" is defined as "to solicit the goodwill of a god, worship, revere" (Random House Webster's College Dictionary)

You won't find the word "venerate" in Scripture.

Of course, because the Scriptures were written in Greek not English.
And the Webster's definition is a bit stilted, don't you think ? People venerate or honor others they've never even met without regard for solicitation ! Writers honor other writers from previous generations, for example.
But you will find the idea of giving honor, of imitating (which in fact are related - as by imitating someone we honor them) - repeatedly, in fact, in the epistles of Paul.

Show us evidence in the Bible where Mary "walked" in Christ.

She heard the word of God from Gabriel, and she kept it ! If she had not, Christ would not have been born of her. Most of the apostles fled, but Mary - even as a mother, making it more difficult - stood by the cross at the crucifixion. She was present at Pentecost as well.

Why would you think she did not "walk in Christ" ?

How many of the Apostles do you "venerate"? It seems that your "veneration" of Mary "stands out" above almost all the Apostles which are mentioned in the Bible.

All of the Apostles are "venerated", as well as John the Baptist, many from the OT, and more. Mary is held in high regard -- God willed the method of our salvation to include the incarnation through Mary.

We honor the method God wills for our salvation. We honor the prophecy of Scripture that all generations will call Mary blessed. We honor those whom God has called for His method to be fulfilled.

 

[WarriorAngel]

ven·er·ate/ˈvenəˌrāt/

Verb: Regard with great respect; revere.


I suppose it depends on what dictionary explains it - or which portion of the definition you chose to use.

 

[Zeek]

A mere sample of what venerating Mary is all about...just simple prayer requests, and honouring a faithful individual? You decide.

Mary, Mother of God
O Mary, Mother of God as You are above all creatures in Heaven and Earth, more glorious than the Cherubim, more noble than any here below, Christ has given You to His people, firm bulwark and Protectress, to shield and save sinners who fly unto You.
Therefore O Lady, all embracing refuge, we solemnly recall Your sweet protection, and beg Christ forever for His mercy. Amen.
...................................................................................................
Prayer to Our Mother of Perpetual Help
O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke Thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let Your name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on You, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations, I shall never cease to call on You, ever repeating Your sacred name, Mary, Mary. O what consolation, what sweetness, what confidence, what emotion fills my soul when I pronounce Your sacred name, or even only think of You! I thank God for having given You, for my good, so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely pronouncing Your name; let my love for You prompt me ever to hail You, Mother of Perpetual Help. Amen.​

 

[sheina]

A mere sample of what venerating Mary is all about...just simple prayer requests, and honouring a faithful individual? You decide.

Mary, Mother of God
O Mary, Mother of God as You are above all creatures in Heaven and Earth, more glorious than the Cherubim, more noble than any here below, Christ has given You to His people, firm bulwark and Protectress, to shield and save sinners who fly unto You.
Therefore O Lady, all embracing refuge, we solemnly recall Your sweet protection, and beg Christ forever for His mercy. Amen.
...................................................................................................
Prayer to Our Mother of Perpetual Help
O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke Thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let Your name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on You, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations, I shall never cease to call on You, ever repeating Your sacred name, Mary, Mary. O what consolation, what sweetness, what confidence, what emotion fills my soul when I pronounce Your sacred name, or even only think of You! I thank God for having given You, for my good, so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely pronouncing Your name; let my love for You prompt me ever to hail You, Mother of Perpetual Help. Amen.​

Wow! That pretty much nails this "veneration" on its head! It's more like the "exaltation of Mary"...and prayers which one would say to our Heavenly Father!

 

[laconicstudent]

A mere sample of what venerating Mary is all about...just simple prayer requests, and honouring a faithful individual? You decide.

Mary, Mother of God
O Mary, Mother of God as You are above all creatures in Heaven and Earth, more glorious than the Cherubim, more noble than any here below, Christ has given You to His people, firm bulwark and Protectress, to shield and save sinners who fly unto You.
Therefore O Lady, all embracing refuge, we solemnly recall Your sweet protection, and beg Christ forever for His mercy. Amen.
...................................................................................................
Prayer to Our Mother of Perpetual Help
O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke Thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let Your name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on You, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations, I shall never cease to call on You, ever repeating Your sacred name, Mary, Mary. O what consolation, what sweetness, what confidence, what emotion fills my soul when I pronounce Your sacred name, or even only think of You! I thank God for having given You, for my good, so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely pronouncing Your name; let my love for You prompt me ever to hail You, Mother of Perpetual Help. Amen.​

I can't see anything wrong with the first, the second is a bit hyperbolic, but I still don't see anything particularly wrong.

 

[xfisherman]

No, but that's not the point.

Its your religion point,but I would rather follow God's point...

Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

 

[laconicstudent]

YouTube - Evlogitaria Matins

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

A mere sample of what venerating Mary is all about...just simple prayer requests, and honouring a faithful individual? You decide.

Mary, Mother of God
O Mary, Mother of God as You are above all creatures in Heaven and Earth, more glorious than the Cherubim, more noble than any here below, Christ has given You to His people, firm bulwark and Protectress, to shield and save sinners who fly unto You.
Therefore O Lady, all embracing refuge, we solemnly recall Your sweet protection, and beg Christ forever for His mercy. Amen.
...................................................................................................
Prayer to Our Mother of Perpetual Help
O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke Thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let Your name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on You, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations, I shall never cease to call on You, ever repeating Your sacred name, Mary, Mary. O what consolation, what sweetness, what confidence, what emotion fills my soul when I pronounce Your sacred name, or even only think of You! I thank God for having given You, for my good, so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely pronouncing Your name; let my love for You prompt me ever to hail You, Mother of Perpetual Help. Amen​

​

I can't see anything wrong with the first, the second is a bit hyperbolic, but I still don't see anything particularly wrong.

OK LS, so it doesn't worry you at all...probably because you have been subjected to this sort of thing over many years...therefore I wouldn't expect there to be any sensitivity, or even recognition that something is badly wrong...you have developed a built in immunity.

Could you perhaps place yourself in my shoes and make a stab at why I find it shocking, offensive, and ultimately sacrilegious...and that far from honouring Mary it dishonours her?

 

[Thekla]

Here is the EO hymn re: the Theotokos (lit. God-bearer, as Mary gave birth to/bore Jesus Christ)

"Axion esti"

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.

 

[laconicstudent]

OK LS, so it doesn't worry you at all...probably because you have been subjected to this sort of thing over many years...therefore I wouldn't expect there to be any sensitivity, or even recognition that something is badly wrong...you have developed a built in immunity.

Epic fail. Its been only a year and a half. Before that I'd spent my entire life in the camp of "Roman Catholics are polytheistic goddess worshipers".

Could you perhaps place yourself in my shoes and make a stab at why I find it shocking, offensive, and ultimately sacrilegious...and that far from honouring Mary it dishonours her?

Yes? Because that was me as recent as 2009.

Perhaps we should avoid making ad hominem assumptions about personal history, because that one fell flat on its face.

 

[Standing Up]

Originally Posted by Zazal

A mere sample of what venerating Mary is all about...just simple prayer requests, and honouring a faithful individual? You decide.

Mary, Mother of God
O Mary, Mother of God as You are above all creatures in Heaven and Earth, more glorious than the Cherubim, more noble than any here below, Christ has given You to His people, firm bulwark and Protectress, to shield and save sinners who fly unto You.
Therefore O Lady, all embracing refuge, we solemnly recall Your sweet protection, and beg Christ forever for His mercy. Amen.
...................................................................................................
Prayer to Our Mother of Perpetual Help
O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke Thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let Your name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on You, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations, I shall never cease to call on You, ever repeating Your sacred name, Mary, Mary. O what consolation, what sweetness, what confidence, what emotion fills my soul when I pronounce Your sacred name, or even only think of You! I thank God for having given You, for my good, so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely pronouncing Your name; let my love for You prompt me ever to hail You, Mother of Perpetual Help. Amen​

​

OK LS, so it doesn't worry you at all...probably because you have been subjected to this sort of thing over many years...therefore I wouldn't expect there to be any sensitivity, or even recognition that something is badly wrong...you have developed a built in immunity.

Could you perhaps place yourself in my shoes and make a stab at why I find it shocking, offensive, and ultimately sacrilegious...and that far from honouring Mary it dishonours her?

I'd guess that nearly all the stuff devoted to Mary is a reappointment, a redirection of David's psalms to God. As a simple example:

From
Psalm 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

To
o Lady all embracing refuge

From LORD is my refuge to Mary is my refuge.

 

[Rhamiel]

Epic fail. Its been only a year and a half. Before that I'd spent my entire life in the camp of "Roman Catholics are polytheistic goddess worshipers".



Yes? Because that was me as recent as 2009.

Perhaps we should avoid making ad hominem assumptions about personal history, because that one fell flat on its face.

has it been such a short amouont of time?

God bless you brother

 

[Studious One]

I'd guess that nearly all the stuff devoted to Mary is a reappointment, a redirection of David's psalms to God. As a simple example:

From
Psalm 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

To
o Lady all embracing refuge

From LORD is my refuge to Mary is my refuge.

Yes, it is clear that God is put on the sidelines.

 

[laconicstudent]

has it been such a short amouont of time?

God bless you brother

Thanks, obviously there was more of a transition than that, but yeah, I'm hardly coming from "years" of "subjection" with an "immunity" and "no sensitivity".

 

[Zeek]

Epic fail. Its been only a year and a half. Before that I'd spent my entire life in the camp of "Roman Catholics are polytheistic goddess worshipers".



Yes? Because that was me as recent as 2009.

Perhaps we should avoid making ad hominem assumptions about personal history, because that one fell flat on its face.

Yep, I take your point, I jumped to conclusions...sorry.

Maybe you have not yet considered the weight of opposition to some of the practices discussed in these threads does actually have a firm foundation....even if some of us who are opposed to them put our feet in our mouths at times, or display less love than we should.

 

[Zeek]

I'd guess that nearly all the stuff devoted to Mary is a reappointment, a redirection of David's psalms to God. As a simple example:

From
Psalm 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

To
o Lady all embracing refuge

From LORD is my refuge to Mary is my refuge.

Yes that is the conclusion that seems so obvious to me.....and my frustration is why can't those brethren that endorse such things through their words, actions and devotions see a bit more clearly that they are promoting unbiblical tradition...rooted in man and not in G-d.

 

[narnia59]

Yes, it is clear that God is put on the sidelines.

Since the Divine Liturgy for the EO and the Mass for the Catholics is the official prayer of the church and the center of our worship, perhaps you would care to analyze those prayers and show how it is clear that God is put on the sidelines?

Rather, people go to the sidelines to get only specific prayers they want to analyze and ignore the core and heart of our worship, and then cast stones to the whole. Which perhaps is why you make no headway in convincing people that your viewpoint has merit.