The Arminian View

[msortwell]

From the Arminian perspective . . .

What must happen for a man to change (or be changed) from the unsaved condition to a saved condition.

That is, what must the man do, if anything?

What must God do, if anything?

What must Christ do, if anything?

What must the Holy Ghost do, if anything?

In what order must these things happen?

Do God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost treat all unsaved men equally? That is, does God's justice REQUIRE Him to afford every man that was ever born the exact same chance to be saved?

 

[Terene]

Can I answer your questions even if my answers are not from the Ariminian perspective?

 

[msortwell]

Can I answer your questions even if my answers are not from the Ariminian perspective?

I would respectfully ask you to wait for a bit. I am truly hoping that a true Arminian (not what we Calvinists like to label Arminian) will provide a thoughtful response.

I believe I know the "Arminian" answers, but, being a Calvinist, may have some subtle misconceptions.

It is my expectation that the similarities between the Calvinistic view and the Arminian view are significant - and we rarely spend ANY time speaking to those similarities.

Neither do we often speak to whether or not those similarities are sufficient to consider one another to be within the sphere Christian "orthodoxy," despite perceiving each other as holding to significant doctrinal errors.

 

[msortwell]

O.K., I'll offer up the following - A Calvinist's understanding of the Arminian View

From the Arminian perspective . . .

What must happen for a man to change (or be changed) from the unsaved condition to a saved condition?
That is, what must the man do, if anything?

A man must trust that the gospel is true . . . that Christ died for his sins, that He was buried, and that He rose on the 3rd day . . . all according to the Scriptures.

What must God do, if anything?

God must, consistent with His own promise, by grace, through faith, impute the Man's sins to Christ, and Christ's righteousness to the man.

What must Christ do, if anything?

Christ accomplished what was required of Him on the cross. He has no additional work to accomplish to save the man.

What must the Holy Ghost do, if anything?

The Holy Ghost must work upon the heart of the man to enable the man to trust in the truth of the gospel and therefore look to Christ for salvation.

In what order must these things happen?

God performed His active part prior to the creation of the world when He did determine how sinful men would be reconciled to Himself through the sacrifice of His Son and the work of the Holy Ghost.

Again, Christ accomplished what was required of Him on the cross. He has no additional work to accomplish to save the man - having agreed before the foundation of the world how sinful men would be reconciled to God.

The Holy Ghost, in agreement with Father and Son since before the foundation of the world, moves actively in the heart of the man at the time(s) determined by God the Father.

Do God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost treat all unsaved men equally? That is, does God's justice REQUIRE Him to afford every man that was ever born the exact same chance to be saved?

No.


ARMINIANS . . . HOW DID I DO? HAVE I CORRECTLY REPRESENTED YOUR VIEWS? FEEL FREE TO MAKE CORRECTIONS AS NECESSARY!

 

[msortwell]

Can I answer your questions even if my answers are not from the Ariminian perspective?

ANSWER AWAY . . . AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE!

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, for one thing, it's spelled CalVINist. Nit-picking? Maybe, but if you want to have any credibility, realize that spell-checking is your friend. If you can't even be bothered to spell things correctly, why should anyone take you seriously?

And, all this vitriol and hatred toward Calvinism, and by extension, Calvinists, is tiresome, futile, and a waste of time. Why fight against Fellow Christians, when our common enemy is Satan? Did it ever occur to anyone that fighting other Christians is what the devil wants, to keep the focus off of him? Quit playing his game!

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh foolish man. Why then pick fights with orthodox or arminians which is what this thread is all about.

Who is picking a fight? Not me. I'm advocating abandoning the Calvinist and Arminian bashing as unproductive. Why would you call that foolish?

 

[msortwell]

How about this

Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He forknew it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

What do to think ?

I THINK you ignored the question. This question has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with foreknowledge.

 

[msortwell]

How about Calvinism being so contradictory. Eg Christmas calvanists - No (L).

After all - To be a 4 point Calvinist one must misunderstand at least one of the 5 points .... R C Sproul.

If any one of the 5 points of Calvanism is denied, the Reformed heritage is completely lost... Herman Hoeksema. I was going to quote Boettner on this but I thought the hypo-Calvanists would blow a gasket.

What about Gods Sovereignty ?
To Say on one hand that God has made certain all that ever happens, and yet to say that man is responsible for what he does.. Is nonsense! It must be one or the other. So the Calvanist has to make up his mind....Edwin Palmer (Calvanist)

How am I doing ?

AGAIN . . . you have ignored the question. The point of this post IS NOT to attack the Arminian view, but to afford a platform where it can be, admittedly within a narrow scope, displayed accurately.

Calvinist, like Arminians, ought to understand the "opposing" view accurately. Too often Calvinists attack a false model of Arminanism, even as Arminians frequently argue against a false model of Calvinism.

We ought to AT LEAST be able to agree about where our differences truly are!

 

[msortwell]

Oh foolish man. Why then pick fights with orthodox or arminians which is what this thread is all about.

You presume a great deal. This thread does nothing but ask Arminians to express their view on a few of the major aspects of our reconcilliation to God through Christ. For your assertion to have any validity, you should wait until some Calvinist enters into the discussion, and conducts himself consistent with what YOU have asserted is MY motivation for starting this thread.

Your conduct thus far has shown a complete lack of grace - you could choose to enter into what could be a productive discussion.

If you wish to contribute to the discussion, I would ask that you grade my attempt at an Arminian response to the questions.

 

[Skala]

Or this

God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil

I.E. Forknowedge. nothing decreed, freewill etc

Apparently you don't understand Calvinism if you think Calvinism teaches men's wills are forced.

What Calvinism teaches is that God works on the will, by grace, so that a man becomes willing when previously he was not.

Thus,w hen a man accepts Christ, he does so because he wants to, not because he was forced.

You can't force somebody to do something they are already willing to do. But you can compel them, which is what John 6:44 teaches.

 

[msortwell]

Apparently you don't understand Calvinism if you think Calvinism teaches men's wills are forced.

What Calvinism teaches is that God works on the will, by grace, so that a man becomes willing when previously he was not.

Thus,w hen a man accepts Christ, he does so because he wants to, not because he was forced.

You can't force somebody to do something they are already willing to do. But you can compel them, which is what John 6:44 teaches.

That is what I was speaking of before. People attack the opposing view without an real understanding of what that view really is. In this thread it is my hope that genuine Arminians will reveal what they believe and the Calvinists will only try to understand what is said, asking questions, only to clarify, but NOT to challenge or debate the views expressed.

Perhaps, if the discussion actually gets rolling, we might discuss the similarities and differences between the Arminian and Calvinistic views.

 

[Skala]

2Ch 30:5-12
(5) So they decreed to make a proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, that the people should come and keep the Passover to the LORD, the God of Israel, at Jerusalem, for they had not kept it as often as prescribed.
(6) So couriers went throughout all Israel and Judah with letters from the king and his princes, as the king had commanded, saying, "O people of Israel, return to the LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, that he may turn again to the remnant of you who have escaped from the hand of the kings of Assyria.
(7) Do not be like your fathers and your brothers, who were faithless to the LORD God of their fathers, so that he made them a desolation, as you see.
(8) Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD and come to his sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever, and serve the LORD your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you.
(9) For if you return to the LORD, your brothers and your children will find compassion with their captors and return to this land. For the LORD your God is gracious and merciful and will not turn away his face from you, if you return to him."
(10) So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them.
(11) However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.
(12) The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD.

Look at what's going on here. God sent messengers to call men to repentance. Verse 11-12 tells us that some of them responded posivetely. Verse 12 gives us some insight as to why the men that responded positivity did so: because God gave them hearts to obey.

@ JohnCalvinNot:

Did God "force" these men to obey? Or did he work on their hearts so that they became willing? Did they obey because they wanted to obey (due to God's working on their hearts) or did they obey, kicking and screaming, against their wills?

I await your response.

 

[bling]

From the Arminian perspective . . .

What must happen for a man to change (or be changed) from the unsaved condition to a saved condition

.
I cannot ‘speak” for all Arminians and do not know if I am one myself. But I am not Calvinist[/font]

That is, what must the man do, if anything?

It is closer to being less than nothing then something. Nothing would mean you could maintain your pride, while with less than nothing you give up your pride. It is not a “work” as the first century Jew and most people today would have defined “work” (and would say a person begging for charity is not working). A mature adult must direct the God given “faith” everyone has, toward trusting (believing) in a benevolent creator to the point of humble (giving up pride and doing what the lowliest mature person on earth can do) accepting God’s Love in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness (relieving him of the burden of sin) and thus Love much himself (“…he that is forgiven much will Love much…&#8221. [/font]

What must God do, if anything?

God is always doing all He can or allowing all He can to help willing mature adult humans fulfill their objective. The problem is God cannot instinctively make a person with Godly type Love (robotic love or a pull string doll that says I love you). God cannot “force” His Love on a human, since that would not be Loving on his part and the Love we got would not be Godly type Love.

What must Christ do, if anything?

Christ and God are in full harmony.

What must the Holy Ghost do, if anything?

Again He is in full harmony with God and Christ. The indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit would come after your acceptance of God’s Love.

In what order must these things happen?

You reach maturity.

You sin.

You feel the burden of your transgressions (conscious awareness).

You desire and seek relief from the burden of your transgressions (hurting of other people in the past).

You trust (believe/faith) in a must needed benevolent Creator to somehow/someway relief you of your burden.

God immediately jumps at the opportunity to forgive you before you can even speak (like father toward the prodigal son) and forgives you relieving you of your burden. Also with forgiveness comes the your birthright to heaven.

You feel the burden being removed.

You realize you have been forgiven of much and thus Love much.

Do God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost treat all unsaved men equally? That is, does God's justice REQUIRE Him to afford every man that was ever born the exact same chance to be saved?

There are “save” individuals that never reach adult maturity so they do not “sin”. These individuals might go on and die without ever fulfilling their earthly objective, but even though the Bible does not specifically address this situation, I feel from my knowledge of God, they would go on to heaven with only a strong child for wonderful parent type love and not Godly type Love. In heaven we might have the privilege and honor of protecting and preserving these individual with Godly type Love.

All mature adults (those that have sinned) do seem to have the opportunity I have described.

 

[msortwell]

.
I cannot ‘speak” for all Arminians and do not know if I am one myself. But I am not Calvinist[/font]

Thank you for your contribution, but I am sure that your beliefs are outside of what a genuine Arminian would view as consistent with their theology.

If any actual Arminians opt to enter into the discussion they might comment on your understanding and it similarities to and difference with their beliefs.

And you are correct, you are clearly not a Calvinist.

 

[Skala]

Bling:

This is off topic but it sounds like you deny Original Sin and that is a very serious issue my friend!

 

[bling]

Bling:

This is off topic but it sounds like you deny Original Sin and that is a very serious issue my friend!

The problem is not that Adam and Eve sinned, but that “all have sinned”.

You are right in the fact that I do not “blame” Adam and Eve for my previous condition, in fact I thank them for living through the whole Garden situation to the point of being kicked out, because it helps me (and I am sure them) to realize how lousy the Garden situation was for fulfilling my earthly objective. All mature adults will ask at some point in their lives “How could a Loving God allow this to happen?” God needed to and did address that question at the beginning (not with blame Adam and Eve, but with the situation without tragedies does not provide the best situation for fulfill your objective).

Sin is not the problem and has purpose.

 

[bling]

Thank you for your contribution, but I am sure that you're beliefs are outside of what a genuine Arminian would view as consistent with their theology.

If any actual Arminians opt to enter into the discussion they might comment on your understanding and it similarities to and difference with their beliefs.

And you are correct, you are clearly not a Calvinist.

I have been called Arminian before.
Remember "Calvinism" has a wide range of believes and not all are Hypo Calvinistics.
Is there a problem with my take on Arminian believe?

 

[Skala]

The problem is not that Adam and Eve sinned, but that “all have sinned”.

You are right in the fact that I do not “blame” Adam and Eve for my previous condition, in fact I thank them for living through the whole Garden situation to the point of being kicked out, because it helps me (and I am sure them) to realize how lousy the Garden situation was for fulfilling my earthly objective. All mature adults will ask at some point in their lives “How could a Loving God allow this to happen?” God needed to and did address that question at the beginning (not with blame Adam and Eve, but with the situation without tragedies does not provide the best situation for fulfill your objective).

Sin is not the problem and has purpose.

Yes my friend, all have sinned because they are born into Adam's race. In other words, you don't become a sinner by sinning, but the reason people sin is because they are sinners.

David tells us that he was born into sin and conceived in iniquity. He's not a special case.

You don't have to teach a child how to lie, cheat, steal, disobey parents, violently hit his playmates, be selfish, etc. They innately know how to do that. That proves that mankind is sinful by nature. The fact that they don't have to be shown how to do that, but that they know how to do it by nature, proves that they are sinners and that is why they sin.

Humans are born into a fallen race. Adam was their representative. Adam brought sin, guilt and condemnation upon his entire posterity. Paul is clear in Romans 5 that men die because they are guilty in Adam, not merely because they are guilty for their own sins (though that is true, too). Adam represents his people in the way Christ represents His people. Christ is considered, by the Apostle Paul, a type of Adam. (and vice versa)

That means what Adam did affected me, but what Christ did affected me to. If you deny original sin that means you deny Paul's argument that Christ is a type of Adam, which means you deny that both parties (Adam and Christ) act as federal heads for the people they represent.

If you deny Adam as your federal head, then to be consistent you must deny Christ as your federal head, too. In short, if you deny original sin you also deny the very doctrine of salvation itself!

 

[msortwell]

I have been called Arminian before.
Remember "Calvinism" has a wide range of believes and not all are Hypo Calvinistics.
Is there a problem with my take on Arminian believe?

As stated by another, your position seems to deny the impact of original sin upon all the descendents of Adam. Your view seems as though it might best align with what has been labeled Semipelagianism or Pelagianism. It would be worth your time to take a look into what those schools of thought teach and if they align with your views - and take the time to look and the broader implications of the two views.