The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Der Alte]

Ok using the text you supplied, is that the very thing that scripture says must be done for people to be saved? If we confess with out tongue and believe in our hearts Jesus is then we are saved- is that not what your definition says?

Please quote me the exact part of the definition I posted which says that?

1 to accept an offer 2 to make admission of wrong /confess 3 to declare openly in acknowledgement-profess . How is that not what all people must do.

Where is "GLADLY?" FYI the word "gladly" does not occur in the EOB. I wonder how the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB missed that?

Why does this idea of everyone doing this as scripture says will happen so repulsive to those who hold to ECT , unless they see the false hood of the idea that God would create people he knew he would have to torture forever, and that scares them because if that is true, which it is, what else in the tradition they hold to is false also and that is a scary thing to think your box that God is in is too small.no one likes to admit they are wrong it takes courage and maturity, something that is lacking in many.

No fear just fact. I have yet to receive a rational, reasoned response to Jeremiah 13:11-14 Matthew 7:21-23. You have yet to say something for which I would need to admit I am wrong.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"Might have" NOT "will have" "Might become" NOT "will become."

Should that not read "in assurance of the life of the age...?"

The apotkatastasis is not mentioned in Colossians.


Where does Galatians say that "the one NOT sowing in the spirit will reap life in the age?

First off you are distorting the word “might “ the way that you are using it as I might be able to do xyz is one way to use might but it can also be used in this way- xyz must happen so that I might do something. This use is how I read the “might “ in these verses. In the Gal verse I did not say not sowing, go back and reread it.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

How is that not what all people must do. Why does this idea of everyone doing this as scripture says will happen so repulsive to those who hold to ECT , unless they see the false hood of the idea that God would create people he knew he would have to torture forever, and that scares them because if that is true, which it is, what else in the tradition they hold to is false also and that is a scary thing to think your box that God is in is too small.no one likes to admit they are wrong it takes courage and maturity, something that is lacking in many.

Der Alte said: Are you familiar with the punctuation mark the lowly period? It looks like this. According to two passages which I have posted a number of times all people will not be saved.
Jeremiah 13:11-14 and Matthew 7:21-23

Hmmmmmm, I specifically remember you taking offense, calling them insults, at a couple comments I made just a few post back. Yes? My comments were made with the intent of stirring your heart to actually look at what you were writing. I said them with a spirt of brotherly love. I actually do care about you my friend.

The above comment I highlighted is nothing but malicious in its intent. Just like when you took a crap on Jeff’s thread, in spite of his polite request in the opening post, to please refrain from commenting if you are not a proponent of UR. Again, nothing but malicious in its intent. Yet you wish to pretend you are a poster child for proper forum etiquette during a discussion. If you cared to help Jeff with his delivery, you could have privately messaged him. Instead you chose to publicly mock him. Here is another statement delivered in love:

”Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭3‬-‭5‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 7:3-5 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is th | English Standard Version 2016 (ES

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is th

bible.com

blessings

Side note: Whether you acknowledge it or not your handling of the Jeremiah text you so often quote is just, well like I stated before, embarrassing and you should stop using it. You provide no support from any other source, other than your own forced interpretation imposed upon it because of your theological stance. But you demand from me to prove you wrong. Prove what wrong? Brother, it’s your chosen text, not mine. The least you can do is supply some relevant information concerning future punishment contained “IN” the text. Surely you have an abundance of other Scripture that is actually contextually accurate, not just driven by your personal bias against UR.

Good grief …

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Please quote me the exact part of the definition I posted which says that?

Where is "GLADLY?" FYI the word "gladly" does not occur in the EOB. I wonder how the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB missed that?

No fear just fact. I have yet to receive a rational, reasoned response to Jeremiah 13:11-14 Matthew 7:21-23. You have yet to say something for which I would need to admit I am wrong.

How many times do I have to say it? I agree with each of these as plainly written. They are for this age except Jeremiah was for the last age. Not the age to come. Until you get caught up to speed on how God works using ages you will not understand.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Somewhat interesting BUT what do the words "...saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." mean to you? Can you show me some specific words from God where God, Himself relents and decides to take pity on, and spares and shows mercy to those in the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Jacob that He has destroyed. I'll wait while you look up those specific verses.


Irrelevant. What does the word "destroy" mean.

If you are going to reference "old testament Scholars Keil & Delitzsch, John Gill, and Biblical Illustrator"etc please state what they said and where they said it. But Jesus said something about future punishment.


Vague refences like this are meaningless.

Nonsense! I quoted the verses completely I did not add or take away anything! And it does not contradict and is not contradicted by anything in the book it was quoted from

Nonsense. Please show me exactly where I "eisegeted" anything?

Nonsense. Second false reference to "out-of-context Scripture in Jeremiah 13." Please show me exactly how it is out of context with anything in the book of Jeremiah? tic toc. You accused me of eisegesis now accusing me of quoting out-of-context. You cannot show me specifically where I did, in fact, do either?
Here is another passage which you can falsely accuse me of quoting out-of-context and/or eisegesis. Please be specific?

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never' he does not mean someday by and by. Here is another favorite of mine quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT

Matt 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [aionios] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aionios] life.”​

EOB Link

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

You want an example of God resorting what He destroyed Ok Jude 1:7 Sodom and Gamora destroyed with eternal fire. Ezekiel 16:53-55 God will restore Somdom and Gomorrah. How can God restore what he has destroyed? Jer 32:27 I am Yahweh, God of all flesh. Is anything too difficult for me?

 

[Der Alte]

Ok I am horrible at spelling I know , but you have not refuted what I said. Maybe the books you use don’t use gladly, the ones I looked up did but that’s not the point. Is not confessing with your tongue how we became saved? That was the point and using the definition that you gave fits that statement. I know you don’t like it but it’s there.

Yes, confessing with our tongues is how we became saved. But ἐξομολογέω/exomologeo I quoted gave the correct definition which does not include the word "gladly'"
When do these "footstools" confess with their tongues?
Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Luke 20:43
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts 2:35
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 10:13
(13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

When Jesus' namesake, Joshua in the O.T. made his enemies his footstool there was no confessing etc. Jos 10:23-26

 

[Der Alte]

First off you are distorting the word “might “ the way that you are using it as I might be able to do xyz is one way to use might but it can also be used in this way- xyz must happen so that I might do something. This use is how I read the “might “ in these verses. In the Gal verse I did not say not sowing, go back and reread it.

When God says He "might" do something that is what He means. When God means something definitely will happen that is what He says.

 

[Der Alte]

How many times do I have to say it? I agree with each of these as plainly written. They are for this age except Jeremiah was for the last age. Not the age to come. Until you get caught up to speed on how God works using ages you will not understand.

Neither of the vss. I quoted say anything about different ages. Perhaps you might have read where I said, "When Jesus says 'never' He does not mean Someday by and by." In the Jeremiah passage "...saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them." does not allow for a subsequent age pardon. Unless you can show me a vs. where God changes His mind about this specific incident. What God did or did not do to Sodom and Gomorrah is not relevant.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Yes, confessing with our tongues is how we became saved. But ἐξομολογέω/exomologeo I quoted gave the correct definition which does not include the word "gladly'"
When do these "footstools" confess with their tongues?
Mark 12:36
(36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 22:44
(44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Luke 20:43
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts 2:35
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 10:13
(13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

When Jesus' namesake, Joshua in the O.T. made his enemies his footstool there was no confessing etc. Jos 10:23-26

Here are the verses that we get the understanding of what God meant by footstool.Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool/ Matt 5:34-35 Whereas I tell you not to swear at all; neither by heaven , inasmuch as it is Gods throne; Nor by the earth, inasmuch as it is the footstool of his feet… These tell us that the earth is Gods footstool and this will happen in the ages to come. That is why we are told by Jesus in the Lord’s Prayer “ your will be done on earth as in heaven “ it’s still in process 1Cor 15:25 For he must reign till he puts all enemies under his feet.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Neither of the vss. I quoted say anything about different ages. Perhaps you might have read where I said, "When Jesus says 'never' He does not mean Someday by and by." In the Jeremiah passage "...saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them." does not allow for a subsequent age pardon. Unless you can show me a vs. where God changes His mind about this specific incident. What God did or did not do to Sodom and Gomorrah is not relevant.

So when God says he will restore Sodom and Gomorrah it irrelevant because it doesn’t fit you idea of “ eternal destruction “ is that being intellectually honest?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

When God says He "might" do something that is what He means. When God means something definitely will happen that is what He says.

So you disagree with my analysis of might , ok you have your opinion.

 

[Der Alte]

So when God says he will restore Sodom and Gomorrah it irrelevant because it doesn’t fit you idea of “ eternal destruction “ is that being intellectually honest?

God did not say that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was eternal. And I already know the proof text you are going to respond with. It doesn't say what you think it does. Where does God say He will spare, have mercy and reverse the destruction of the disobedient Israelites and Jacobites, Jer 13:11-14? I want to see that verse. That God restored Sodom and Gomorrah does not mean He will restore all sinful, disobedient nations.

 

[Der Alte]

Here are the verses that we get the understanding of what God meant by footstool.Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool/ Matt 5:34-35 Whereas I tell you not to swear at all; neither by heaven , inasmuch as it is Gods throne; Nor by the earth, inasmuch as it is the footstool of his feet… These tell us that the earth is Gods footstool and this will happen in the ages to come. That is why we are told by Jesus in the Lord’s Prayer “ your will be done on earth as in heaven “ it’s still in process 1Cor 15:25 For he must reign till he puts all enemies under his feet.

There is that "ages to come" again with no scriptural support. "These tell us that the earth is Gods footstool and this will happen in the ages to come." If as you allege all mankind are God's footstool, why do so many vss. say "until God makes your enemies your footstool." if they already are? Joshua in the O.T. shows us what it means.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alte said: Are you familiar with the punctuation mark the lowly period? It looks like this. According to two passages which I have posted a number of times all people will not be saved.
Jeremiah 13:11-14 and Matthew 7:21-23

Hmmmmmm, I specifically remember you taking offense, calling them insults, at a couple comments I made just a few post back. Yes? My comments were made with the intent of stirring your heart to actually look at what you were writing. I said them with a spirt of brotherly love. I actually do care about you my friend.

The above comment I highlighted is nothing but malicious in its intent. Just like when you took a crap on Jeff’s thread, in spite of his polite request in the opening post, to please refrain from commenting if you are not a proponent of UR. Again, nothing but malicious in its intent. Yet you wish to pretend you are a poster child for proper forum etiquette during a discussion. If you cared to help Jeff with his delivery, you could have privately messaged him. Instead you chose to publicly mock him. Here is another statement delivered in love:

”Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭3‬-‭5‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 7:3-5 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is th | English Standard Version 2016 (ES

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is th

bible.com

blessings

Side note: Whether you acknowledge it or not your handling of the Jeremiah text you so often quote is just, well like I stated before, embarrassing and you should stop using it. You provide no support from any other source, other than your own forced interpretation imposed upon it because of your theological stance. But you demand from me to prove you wrong. Prove what wrong? Brother, it’s your chosen text, not mine. The least you can do is supply some relevant information concerning future punishment contained “IN” the text. Surely you have an abundance of other Scripture that is actually contextually accurate, not just driven by your personal bias against UR.

Good grief …

It is not a forced interpretation. I have not added or taken anything out of the passage. The words mean exactly what they say. Nothing you have said here or anywhere else conclusively shows that I am misrepresenting Jeremiah 13:11-14. Am I also misrepresenting Matthew 7:21-23.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Did or did not Jesus say in vs. 21 "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Did or did not Jesus say in vs. 23 "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[Der Alte]

So when God says he will restore Sodom and Gomorrah it irrelevant because it doesn’t fit you idea of “ eternal destruction “ is that being intellectually honest?

You are misrepresenting what I said. Once again, the fact that God chose to restore Sodom and Gomorrah is NOT relevant to disobedient Israel and Jacob in Jeremiah 13 11-14 especially when God specifically used these words. "saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

 

[Jeff Saunders]

There is that "ages to come" again with no scriptural support. "These tell us that the earth is Gods footstool and this will happen in the ages to come." If as you allege all mankind are God's footstool, why do so many vss. say "until God makes your enemies your footstool." if they already are? Joshua in the O.T. shows us what it means.

I have never said all mankind is Gods footstool that is inaccurate. Scripture support for age to come . Again you really need to take notes I have given it to you before. Heb 6:5 / Matt 12:32 /Eph 1:21 / Eph 2:7 / Luke 20:35 /Mark 10:30 these are some there are more. Please write these down so next time you ask you can look at your notes and remember.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You are misrepresenting what I said. Once again, the fact that God chose to restore Sodom and Gomorrah is NOT relevant to disobedient Israel and Jacob in Jeremiah 13 11-14 especially when God specifically used these words. "saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

Did you not say to show you one example of God restoring what was destroyed? That’s what I did.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

There is that "ages to come" again with no scriptural support. "These tell us that the earth is Gods footstool and this will happen in the ages to come." If as you allege all mankind are God's footstool, why do so many vss. say "until God makes your enemies your footstool." if they already are? Joshua in the O.T. shows us what it means.

So you don’t believe that Jesus when he said that the earth was Gods footstool he knew what he was talking about but Joshua did?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

God did not say that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was eternal. And I already know the proof text you are going to respond with. It doesn't say what you think it does. Where does God say He will spare, have mercy and reverse the destruction of the disobedient Israelites and Jacobites, Jer 13:11-14? I want to see that verse. That God restored Sodom and Gomorrah does not mean He will restore all sinful, disobedient nations.

Is it not your opinion that aioniou fire from Jude 1:7 is eternal fire? It’s your definition not mine .

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

It is not a forced interpretation. I have not added or taken anything out of the passage. The words mean exactly what they say. Nothing you have said here or anywhere else conclusively shows that I am misrepresenting Jeremiah 13:11-14. Am I also misrepresenting Matthew 7:21-23.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Did or did not Jesus say in vs. 21 "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Did or did not Jesus say in vs. 23 "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

First, it speaks volumes to me concerning your character, or should I say, lack there of, that you have not offered your brother a simple, public apology. Very sad my brother. That is now twice. Your heart is bound up in pride and everything you see in the Scripture is viewed through the lens of fear and death …

Concerning the above, often quoted Scripture? Yes, Jesus most definitely did speak those words. No denial here … Perhaps if you will take the time to connect the verses you so often quote, with what Jesus was speaking of “prior” to and “following” those Scriptures, we can have a fruitful and meaningful discussion.

Unless you think those Scriptures are not relevant? How about it brother? Care to actually try and provide some context that will shed light on why Jesus spoke such somber and provocative words?

blessings