The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Dec 29, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I provided enough citings to see if you have grasp of the subject matter.

You've answered by no answer. I get why you don't get it. It's not your fault

Even the citing you give has the black hole of the typical one sided voided picture missing the vital party to the drama, our adversary, the devil.

Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan...do the math on who is saying "Lord Lord."

All have, present tense have sin. Romans 3:9
Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

You know, the missing party repeatedly pointed out for you now and repeatedly ignored.

I know who's doing the denying. It's not even you

Hey brother Believe … in the above highlighted sentence I get your idea of Jesus speaking to Satan in his attempt to prevent The Christ from failing to obey His Father’s will. But. I am lost on the part where you are stating those who say, “Lord, Lord …” are really Satan speaking.

Jesus turned the tables on the Pharisees after they said He casts out demons through the power of Beelzebub.
You know the reply Jesus gave so please help me understand how this applies? Remember, these of whom Jesus spoke stated they cast out demons in His Name … I don’t get it?

”But some of them said, “He drives out demons by [the power of] Beelzebul (Satan), the ruler of the demons.”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11‬:‭15‬ ‭AMP‬‬

Luke 11:15 But some of them said, “He drives out demons by [the power of] Beelzebul (Satan), the ruler of the demons.” | Amplified Bible (AMP) | Download The Bible App Now

But some of them said, “He drives out demons by [the power of] Beelzebul (Satan), the ruler of the demons.”

bible.com

”Many will say to Me on that day [when I judge them], ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name?’“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭22‬ ‭AMP‬‬

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day [when I judge them], ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name?’ | Amplified Bible (AMP) | Download The Bible App Now

Many will say to Me on that day [when I judge them], ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name?’

bible.com

BelieveItOarKnot · Dec 31, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
I am lost on the part where you are stating those who say, “Lord, Lord …” are really Satan speaking.

Satan or his demons.

If you grasp the simple scriptural principle that devils do speak through people, the math should be clear. It happens. Even with believers. That's why we test the spirits. Which is a whole nuther study.

Bottom line is we all have sin. We're never sinless. We are all subject to internal temptations via the tempter. And sin is "of the devil" Not every thought, word or deed is just and only on us

All showing there's a lot more going on under the surface

BUT until a person comes clean about the facts of it for themselves they'll never see it or understand it. Nor are they meant to.

Jesus lights up whomever He Wills

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Dec 31, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Satan or his demons.

If you grasp the simple scriptural principle that devils do speak through people, the math should be clear. It happens. Even with believers. That's why we test the spirits. Which is a whole nuther study.

Bottom line is we all have sin. We're never sinless. We are all subject to internal temptations via the tempter. And sin is "of the devil" Not every thought, word or deed is just and only on us

All showing there's a lot more going on under the surface

BUT until a person comes clean about the facts of it for themselves they'll never see it or understand it. Nor are they meant to.

Jesus lights up whomever He Wills

Hey brother … I’m sorry but I think you missed my point? I’m trying to understand why would the Adversary or his minions, if I understand you correctly, be telling Jesus they had cast out demons in His Name? Jesus stated He never knew these persons and they responded with the good works they had done in His Name … Why would Satan or a demon state they were casting out themselves in the Name of The Christ? Hope that clarifies my question.

BTW. I agree with much of what you are saying. Although I am still trying to grasp the sower of the seed, parable’s interpretation, as it applies to all parables. I no longer rule out anything after being shown by our Heavenly Father how I was slandering His Name when I formerly embraced that most wicked doctrine, taught by man and birthed by the spirit of deception.

Looking forward to your reply.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 3, 2025

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Why would Satan or a demon state they were casting out themselves in the Name of The Christ? Hope that clarifies my question.

Because they are present in the persons who did the various works, and they lie, obviously. And these bad unseen actors are considered strangers by Jesus.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
BTW. I agree with much of what you are saying. Although I am still trying to grasp the sower of the seed, parable’s interpretation, as it applies to all parables. I no longer rule out anything after being shown by our Heavenly Father how I was slandering His Name when I formerly embraced that most wicked doctrine, taught by man and birthed by the spirit of deception.

I am a Christian Universalist however that encompasses a fairly wide array of positions from various claimants. I had to sort through most of the variants a couple plus decades ago. It's a very diverse group with a lot of semi crazy stuff and a fair amount of heresies. Not much different than the common denominations that way.

One can be a Chrisitan Universalist and still adhere to eternal punishment/damnation of the devil and his messengers, which settled both side of the equations for me.

Jesus can look any of us directly in the face and speak to the tempter or his own, in any of us. I actually look forward to hearing "depart from me ye workers of iniquity." cough cough, we ALL work iniquity, so what gain is there in lying? Funny how the majority run away from His Words in this particular regard when that should be our day of rejoicing.

His Words, all of them, are life to us. The challenge is to find the good on the darker Words, and my ears have been opened somewhat in this regard. It's deep mining territory for those who are brought into interests. Not for surface dwellers.

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Eph. 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The spirit of disobedience is the devil and his own.

The only difference between us and the common unbeliever is we are actually supposed to see our situation, and battle-resist it. NOT to deny we have a wrestling match on our own hands.

Der Alte · Jan 3, 2025

pdpayne2023 said:
Thank you for the welcome and for your thoughtful reply. As to your first question, yes: Luke 3:5-6; Luke 16:16; John 12:32; Acts 3:19-21; Romans 5:15,18; Romans 11:32; I Corinthians 15:22,28; Ephesians 1:7-10; Colossians 1:19-20; I Timothy 4:10; I John 2:2. These are just a few.
I think it is much easier and faithful to the original languages to interpret seemingly exclusivist passages such as Matthew 25:44-46 in light of the plainly universalist passages rather than the other way around, and for one very simply reason. The words translated in Matthew as "everlasting" and "eternal" did not mean infinite to the ancient Greeks in the way we moderns think. There were Greek words that could have been used for eternal if that's what the author wanted, but he did not use them. Aion and aionios are for a period with a beginning and an end. They never denoted unending, and are the equivalent of the Hebrew, olam. Sadly, the Latin translations inserted the connotation of "eternal" for aion and aionios, which is simply incorrect and certainly regrettable.
However, there are no issues when it comes to the translation of the universalist passages. They are plain in Greek and English. I know it is difficult to step back a read certain passages again with fresh eyes when you have heard them translated and interpretated a certain way for years and years. But that's what I had to do, and what a lot of people must do with these passages to get to the truth of the matter.

Peace,
Daniel

You have not provided any scriptural support for your claim that aion and aionios refer to a period with a beginning. Some time ago I reviewed every occurrence of aionios in the New Testament.
“aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [.03%]
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T. [53%]
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T. [35%]
Despite some uninformed arguments “aionios” is never translated “age(s)” in the N.T. The noun “aion” is sometimes translated “age(s)”
= = = = = = = = = =
Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
In twenty-four [24] of the following verses αἰώνιος/aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal, e.g. “world,”
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 24 verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal/for ever/everlasting.”
"Aionios" is never translated "age" in the NT. That is impossible "aionios" is an adjective, "age" is a noun.

[1] Luke 1:33

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας/lit. unto the eternity [aionas [PlMas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here definitely means eternity.

[2] John 6:58

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/aiona [lit. unto eternity]

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live forever” with “death.” If “live aiona” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiona” by definition here means “eternity.”

[3] John 10:28

(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” “age(s) is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.

[5] John 3:16

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen]I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][unto eternity][fn] see death."

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]

Der Alte · Jan 3, 2025

[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/lit. unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] [lit: unto the eternity of eternities] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “unto the aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Der Alte · Jan 5, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I provided enough citings to see if you have grasp of the subject matter.

You've answered by no answer. I get why you don't get it. It's not your fault

Even the citing you give has the black hole of the typical one sided voided picture missing the vital party to the drama, our adversary, the devil.

Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan...do the math on who is saying "Lord Lord."

All have, present tense have sin. Romans 3:9
Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

You know, the missing party repeatedly pointed out for you now and repeatedly ignored.

I know who's doing the denying. It's not even you

Your comment "You've answered by no answer. I get why you don't get it. It's not your fault..." is patently false I wrote about a paragraph and quoted 6 vs. of scripture. Since you play fast and loose with the truth there is no point in continuing.....

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 6, 2025

Der Alte said:
Your comment "You've answered by no answer. I get why you don't get it. It's not your fault..." is patently false I wrote about a paragraph and quoted 6 vs. of scripture. Since you play fast and loose with the truth there is no point in continuing.....

Asking you why you don't factor our mutual adversary into your theological positions at the expense of our neighbors is not fast and loose unless someone's back is against the wall.

And fwiw your above posts on aion/age is correct. Some universalists are off on that angle. It's not really a critical point to other universalists who would not agree with that position.

Quite oddly there are some universalists who believe in temporary hell for people, which opens other interesting cans of theological worms. And some of that camp even threaten others with that fate just like the commoners in the realm.

Der Alte · Jan 7, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Asking you why you don't factor our mutual adversary into your theological positions at the expense of our neighbors is not fast and loose unless someone's back is against the wall.

And fwiw your above posts on aion/age is correct. Some universalists are off on that angle. It's not really a critical point to other universalists who would not agree with that position.

Quite oddly there are some universalists who believe in temporary hell for people, which opens other interesting cans of theological worms. And some of that camp even threaten others with that fate just like the commoners in the realm.

It has nothing to do with I "don't factor our mutual adversary into ~~your~~ [my] theological positions at the expense of our neighbors." This statement "You've answered by no answer. I get why you don't get it. It's not your fault..." is patently false. I posted an answer. That you don't like or disagree with my answer does NOT equal "no answer."

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 14, 2025

Der Alte said:
I posted an answer

Your answer was, in effect, that Jesus never addressed or spoke to devils in mankind, which obviously was not the case.

However if it is the case (it is) then that fact should enter into any of Jesus' statements

Der Alte · Jan 14, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Your answer was, in effect, that Jesus never addressed or spoke to devils in mankind, which obviously was not the case.

However if it is the case (it is) then that fact should enter into any of Jesus' statements

Perhaps you should reread my post I don't recall ever saying anything remotely like "Jesus never addressed or spoke to devils in mankind."

Matthew 17:18

(18) And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

Luke 4:35

(35) And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not.

Luke 9:42

(42) And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

John 6:70

(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

BelieveItOarKnot · Jan 15, 2025

Der Alte said:
Perhaps you should reread my post I don't recall ever saying anything remotely like "Jesus never addressed or spoke to devils in mankind."

Of course that was the case and technically still is the case because:

All have sin (a fairly well established scriptural fact for everyone other than Jesus)
And sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 (and the related seed statements in the Gospels)
Evil lawless thoughts defile us all, Mark 7:21-23
The tempter (or his own) does provide such thoughts to everyone

Logic would dictate that there are 2 or more parties engaged within everyone. The person and devils, i.e. our personal tempters

Jeff Saunders · Jan 15, 2025

pdpayne2023 said:
Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ. It seems clear to me, on a holistic, contextual reading of the Book of Romans, that Paul supported the idea of universal reconciliation in no uncertain terms. His statements, particularly in chapters 5 and 11, seem to support the eventual salvation not only of the entirety of humanity, but also of the whole cosmos. I have begun explaining my thoughts on this in a series, the first part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 1: The Apostle Paul and the Book of Romans and the second part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 2: The “Problem” of Election in Romans 9-11.

I would love to have a civil discussion here among those who agree and those who disagree.

Looking forward to it!

Peace,
Daniel

Yes this is the gospel and was taught till Augustine. It is still the gospel but most have bought into the pagan ideology ECT

Der Alte · Jan 15, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes, this is the gospel and was taught till Augustine. It is still the gospel but most have bought into the pagan ideology ECT

ECT is NOT heresy. I can and have shown that from multiple scripture. Here are ten verses spoken by Jesu which clearly define aionios as eternal.
…..Some people mistakenly claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never means eternity/eternal” because a few times they refer to things which are not eternal e.g. “world.” 5 times.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not/could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.

[5] John 3:16

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life. Those who do not believe in Jesus, do not have eternal life but perish.

[6]John 5:24

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη/ou me'] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Jeff Saunders · Jan 15, 2025

Light of the East said:
So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or free-spirited. Now, if anyone hears that word, they think of homosexual orientation. The word "gay" is simply not used in conversation as it was 100 years ago and is completely understood differently.

It's possible that your "Greek scholars" are late comers who were trained to believe that the word "aionios" means "eternal" when the historic evidence for it points otherwise.

What do I mean by historic evidence? I mean that the teaching of Apokatastasis was primarily found in the Greek-speaking East, whereas the Latin West developed the idea of God creating an eternal torment chamber for sinners. Now if you have any sort of investigative mind, you have to ask yourself how it was possible that those Greek-speaking fathers of the Church could believe in something that violates Scripture if "aionios" really means "eternal." There is other evidence from how Plato and other Greek-speaking ancients used the word. So unless you are willing to ascribe utter dishonesty to men like St. Isaac of Syria, as well as the many others who spoke the language and understood it as their native tongue, then you must believe that your "scholars" were trained wrong because they didn't go deep enough into history nor examine all the evidence.

And as for the refutation of the blog spot, what evidence would you accept? I don't think you will accept any evidence that contradicts your cherished ideal that God is just waiting to get His hands on sinners and torment them. You, and many other hellists, strike me as having the same feeling as Tertullian and Aquinas had, which is that they looked forward to leaning over the parapets of heaven to watch sinners get what is due them and enjoy the spectacle.

Anyone with half a heart should find the idea of eternal punishment to be both dreadful and sad, not to mention a smear on the very character of the God who enfleshed Himself to suffer a horrendous death that we might be freed from death.

I have found that most of those who believe in ECT are just acting out their religion that teaches them if they don’t jump through the correct hoops they will burn forever and they fear that more than anything, they are safe so it’s ok. Most of the Christian Universal Redemption camp have had a experience with the living God and have tasted and seen He is Good and Love and once you have experienced the Fathers heart you can no longer believe that a loving Father would torture his children forever, that is not love.

Jeff Saunders · Jan 15, 2025

Der Alte said:
ECT is NOT heresy. I can and have shown that from multiple scripture. Here are ten verses spoken by Jesu which clearly define aionios as eternal.
…..Some people mistakenly claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never means eternity/eternal” because a few times they refer to things which are not eternal e.g. “world.” 5 times.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not/could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé

●The double negative [ου μη/ou me'] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

I don’t want you to think you’re being ignored but I don’t think responding to your posts is for me. I will let the Holy Spirit work on you I have done my part.

Jeff Saunders · Jan 15, 2025

Light of the East said:
The evidence seems overwhelming. There was no garbage dump outside Jerusalem.

I shall have to stop making this reference.

**sigh** And it was such a nice reference. LOL!

It was the place the Israelites sacrificed their children to Baal and that is worse than a garbage dump.

Jeff Saunders · Jan 15, 2025

LoveofTruth said:
Hello, firstly I do not believe in Universalism or the eventual salvation of all men. It can be spiritually dangerous for a sinner who rebels against God to think he will eventually be in glory even if he did not believe the gospel and continues in his sin hardened and hated God. This would make God force them into glory and not require repentance and belief. This would make the many words of Jesus, the prophets, and apostles have no meaning in many verses and confound the doctrines.

Secondly however, I can see how some might interpret certain verses to think that all will eventually be saved. I do say that Christ died for the sin of the whole world and made it possible for all men to be saved. That alone is not agreed upon by the Calvinist and others. But scripture is clear that Christ died for the sin of the whole world and not just the world of believers.

But I also have another understanding about the salvation of all men that extends to infants. This one may answer some of the verses that you and others might take as all being saved eventually. Then when you use verses like theses

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” (1 Timothy 4:10 KJV)

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Consider in these type of verses that infants and young children before the "age of accountability" or before they hate the light are saved by the grace of Christ. But when they have "sin revive " (Romans 7:9 KJV), Then they are no longer spiritually alive and die spiritually and need to repent, which not all will do and many will never have the fire quenched and end up in the lake of fire. We see Paul here shows that he was alive once then sin revived and he died

“For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” (Romans 7:9 KJV)

Notice that he was alive in the context without the law once.This being "alive" once, in context cannot mean physical life here, for he said then he died. That death must be spiritual death. The law then would come to his understanding or he would have the light shine in him and then he would be accountable when he understood this/ For where no law is there is no transgression and sin s not imputed where there s no law. So for Paul to say he was alive once without the law and then he died. We know that Jesus blessed the infants brought to him and said of young children of such is the kingdom of God and their angels do always behold the Father.

Can any imagine a one day old infant dying and standing before God and God saying "away from me, all ye that work iniquity"? I cannot. I believe the children have a sin nature and need a saviour as all men do. But that sin nature is in a dormant state and not active or "alive" until sin revives.

So in this light when we read verses that the free gift came upon all men unto Justification through the work of Jesus Christ in time and he is the saviour of all men, especially them that believe. This could possibly answer the issue here. Infants would be spiritually saved by Christ work and the free gift of the Light given to ever man which is the seed sown, Christ is for their justification. But when sin revives and they die they need to be born again or they will never escape the fire in the end and will be judged.

Children, or specifically one day old infants salvation is rarely spoken of in many discussions, Scripture does speak of this.

So in this way all would be saved at one time by the grace of Christ as a one day old infant. or even more so in the womb, then when they hate the light they will be condemned. remember jesus said the reason men are condemned is when they hate the light and not before. his also rebukes the false Calvinistic view that men are predestined to be saved as individuals and predestined to be damned and that they damned never had a chance for salvation.

Also, when you say eternal and everlasting fore does not men endless fire forever. This is also not accurate. We read of another word used for the endless fire, consider,

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:” (Nark 9:43 KJV)

never to be quenched - ἄσβεστος ásbestos, as'-bes-tos; from G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G4570; not extinguished, i.e. (by implication) perpetual:—not to be quenched, unquenchable.

and "ever"

ever -נֶצַח netsach, neh'-tsakh; or נֵצַח nêtsach; from H5329; properly, a goal, i.e. the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (i.e. to the most distant point of view):—alway(-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever(more), perpetual, strength, victory.

“It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:10 KJV)

It shall not be quenched -כָּבָה kâbâh, kaw-baw'; a primitive root; to expire or (causatively) to extinguish (fire, light, anger):—go (put) out, quench.

Jeff Saunders · Jan 15, 2025

LoveofTruth said:
Hello, firstly I do not believe in Universalism or the eventual salvation of all men. It can be spiritually dangerous for a sinner who rebels against God to think he will eventually be in glory even if he did not believe the gospel and continues in his sin hardened and hated God. This would make God force them into glory and not require repentance and belief. This would make the many words of Jesus, the prophets, and apostles have no meaning in many verses and confound the doctrines.

Secondly however, I can see how some might interpret certain verses to think that all will eventually be saved. I do say that Christ died for the sin of the whole world and made it possible for all men to be saved. That alone is not agreed upon by the Calvinist and others. But scripture is clear that Christ died for the sin of the whole world and not just the world of believers.

But I also have another understanding about the salvation of all men that extends to infants. This one may answer some of the verses that you and others might take as all being saved eventually. Then when you use verses like theses

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” (1 Timothy 4:10 KJV)

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Consider in these type of verses that infants and young children before the "age of accountability" or before they hate the light are saved by the grace of Christ. But when they have "sin revive " (Romans 7:9 KJV), Then they are no longer spiritually alive and die spiritually and need to repent, which not all will do and many will never have the fire quenched and end up in the lake of fire. We see Paul here shows that he was alive once then sin revived and he died

“For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” (Romans 7:9 KJV)

Notice that he was alive in the context without the law once.This being "alive" once, in context cannot mean physical life here, for he said then he died. That death must be spiritual death. The law then would come to his understanding or he would have the light shine in him and then he would be accountable when he understood this/ For where no law is there is no transgression and sin s not imputed where there s no law. So for Paul to say he was alive once without the law and then he died. We know that Jesus blessed the infants brought to him and said of young children of such is the kingdom of God and their angels do always behold the Father.

Can any imagine a one day old infant dying and standing before God and God saying "away from me, all ye that work iniquity"? I cannot. I believe the children have a sin nature and need a saviour as all men do. But that sin nature is in a dormant state and not active or "alive" until sin revives.

So in this light when we read verses that the free gift came upon all men unto Justification through the work of Jesus Christ in time and he is the saviour of all men, especially them that believe. This could possibly answer the issue here. Infants would be spiritually saved by Christ work and the free gift of the Light given to ever man which is the seed sown, Christ is for their justification. But when sin revives and they die they need to be born again or they will never escape the fire in the end and will be judged.

Children, or specifically one day old infants salvation is rarely spoken of in many discussions, Scripture does speak of this.

So in this way all would be saved at one time by the grace of Christ as a one day old infant. or even more so in the womb, then when they hate the light they will be condemned. remember jesus said the reason men are condemned is when they hate the light and not before. his also rebukes the false Calvinistic view that men are predestined to be saved as individuals and predestined to be damned and that they damned never had a chance for salvation.

Also, when you say eternal and everlasting fore does not men endless fire forever. This is also not accurate. We read of another word used for the endless fire, consider,

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:” (Nark 9:43 KJV)

never to be quenched - ἄσβεστος ásbestos, as'-bes-tos; from G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G4570; not extinguished, i.e. (by implication) perpetual:—not to be quenched, unquenchable.

and "ever"

ever -נֶצַח netsach, neh'-tsakh; or נֵצַח nêtsach; from H5329; properly, a goal, i.e. the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (i.e. to the most distant point of view):—alway(-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever(more), perpetual, strength, victory.

“It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:10 KJV)

It shall not be quenched -כָּבָה kâbâh, kaw-baw'; a primitive root; to expire or (causatively) to extinguish (fire, light, anger):—go (put) out, quench.

You are making the assumption that one can only accept Jesus while in the mortal body, no place in scripture does this claim exist. If it did then all those from Adam till Jesus could not accept Jesus and thus be lost forever. Unless you don’t believe scripture that says “ none come to the Father except through Jesus “ or you believe that there are multiple ways to the Father.

Der Alte · Jan 15, 2025

pdpayne2023 said:
Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ. It seems clear to me, on a holistic, contextual reading of the Book of Romans, that Paul supported the idea of universal reconciliation in no uncertain terms. His statements, particularly in chapters 5 and 11, seem to support the eventual salvation not only of the entirety of humanity, but also of the whole cosmos. I have begun explaining my thoughts on this in a series, the first part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 1: The Apostle Paul and the Book of Romans and the second part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 2: The “Problem” of Election in Romans 9-11.

I would love to have a civil discussion here among those who agree and those who disagree.

Looking forward to it!

Peace,
Daniel

Verses which contradict any such out-of-context Universal Reconciliation study. Let us begin in the O.T.

Jeremiah 13:10-13

(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.

Jeremiah 13:14

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

The words of Jesus.

Matthew 7:21-23

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

When Jesus says never he does not mean, some day by and by.

Matthew 25:46

(46) And these [on the left vs. 25:33] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 13:41-42

(41) The Son of man [Jesus] shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

(42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Apostle Paul.

Romans 1:24

(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Romans 1:26

(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Romans 1:28

(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

The apostle John, Last book in the Bible no more death or salvation.

Revelation 22:10

(10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:11

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:15

(15) For without [outside new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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