The Aquarium Argument: Why the universe wasn't created for humans.

[SkyWriting]

How do you know this?

There are no physical or time restraints.
You don't have a body. Right?

 

[Tinker Grey]

There are no physical or time restraints.
You don't have a body. Right?

That doesn't answer the question. Even photons don't go faster than light. How do you know a spiritual body has no mass let alone some property that allows for faster than light travel.?

 

[driewerf]

Scientifically, the result can be considered less than the Cause of the effect.
So scientifically speaking, God would be larger than our Cosmos, if we assume some losses in the transformation.

Nonsense.
A spark can start a forest fire.
A single sperm and ovum can result in an elephant.
An acorn grows into an oak.
A snowball can start an avalanche.
And according to some book, a single bite of an apple caused the fall of the whole world.
Speaking of small causes with great effects.

 

[SkyWriting]

Nonsense.
A spark can start a forest fire.
A single sperm and ovum can result in an elephant.
An acorn grows into an oak.
A snowball can start an avalanche.
And according to some book, a single bite of an apple caused the fall of the whole world.
Speaking of small causes with great effects.

Yes, destruction can spiral.
But growth and creation requires infinite intelligence and planning.
We are still learning what atoms are made of.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The miracles in the Bible did not violate the laws of physics.

Cool! So we should eventually be able to replicate those 'miracles'.

Reality is based on perception, and God is the premier expert at changing people's perception's.

Ah, so you're saying the miracles didn't actually happen, God faked the perception of them?

As I explain in my sig file, God changes the mind of man to match what He has already implemented as His perfect plan.

So much for free will...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Yes, destruction can spiral.
But growth and creation requires infinite intelligence and planning.
We are still learning what atoms are made of.

Did you ever see that documentary about the 'Giant Crystal Cave'? This was growth without any need for intelligence or planning - in the right conditions, crystals just grow:

[btw, that's not Photshop, it's the real thing]

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That doesn't answer the question. Even photons don't go faster than light. How do you know a spiritual body has no mass let alone some property that allows for faster than light travel.?

If a massless spiritual body existed, it would have to travel at c (but not faster than c).

 

[TedT]

It would certainly make more sense to have a universe not solely created for the benefit of humans.

Humans refers ONLY to sinners, those of HIS creation that chose to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god OR who rebelled against HIS plans for them. The elct and holy spirits with HIM who chose to never sin are an uncountable myriad.

Once all evil is eradicated from this reality and everyone is living in the heavenly state of a holy, heavenly communion ie marriage, with HIM, the vsst universe will be our play ground to explore the glories HE made just for our enjoyment.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

In the Spirit world, we can move faster than light speed.
If we were only physical beings, then the rest of the Cosmos would be wasted.

OK, that sounds implausible, where's the evidence to support it? How come the information returned by the probes to the outer planets was so surprising?

If we can travel the cosmos FTL, how come we didn't know the cosmos beyond our galaxy even existed until the early 20th century?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Spirit can move freely with no physical or time restraints. So the Cosmos only looks big due to our current limitations in this life.

There is no evidence for "spirit" separate from the by-product of the brain. Until you have evidence of it and we have characterized its physical properties, claims like this are just unwarranted speculation.

 

[durangodawood]

...So why would anyone create a universe 93 billion light-years in diameter to house a bunch of tiny humans on a teeny-tiny planet?...

Why not?

I'm actually a little dismayed that the universe is only 93B light years across. It could have been much bigger.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Why not?

I'm actually a little dismayed that the universe is only 93B light years across. It could have been much bigger.

It is - it's only the observable universe that's 93 billion ly in diameter. Current evidence suggests the unobservable part extends at least hundreds of times further than that (possibly infinite).

 

[durangodawood]

It is - it's only the observable universe that's 93 billion ly in diameter. Current evidence suggests the unobservable part extends at least hundreds of times further than that (possibly infinite).

Well that would be an improvement. But infinite might be too large. Perhaps we can split the difference?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Well that would be an improvement. But infinite might be too large. Perhaps we can split the difference?

Sure, you could try half of infinite...

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Occasionally the claim comes up that the universe was somehow invented entirely for the benefit of the human race: a bunch of teeny-tiny humans squirreled away on a teeny-tiny planet in a corner of a single galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies. For point of reference, the current size of the universe is an estimated 93 billion light-years in diameter.

In comparison, I decided to compare what this would be like with creating an equivalent sized aquarium for a handful of small fish. I currently have said group of fish in a modest-sized 20 gallon tank that is 2 feet wide.

Scaling up the fish tank relative to the size of Earth in comparison to the entire universe, the equivalent size of aquarium for those fish would be about 7 light-years in diameter.

To put that size in comparison, our entire solar system is only 1.5 light-years in diameter. The nearest star is only ~4 light-years away. This would be a fish tank big enough to house multiple solar systems.

Would it make sense to build an aquarium 7 light years in diameter to house a handful of fish that are otherwise comfortably housed in a 20 gallon tank? Nope. That seems a highly impractical and rather wasteful use of space.

So why would anyone create a universe 93 billion light-years in diameter to house a bunch of tiny humans on a teeny-tiny planet?

(Note: I fully recognize this is kind of a dumb argument. But I thought it was worth making just to give a sense of scale to the size of the universe.)

The game Minecraft creates a world that is practically infinite in scale- a player could not realistically explore one in a lifetime.

By your rationale such a game must have spontaneously materialized for no particular reason- why would an intelligent designer create such a vast amount of space?

 

[durangodawood]

The game Minecraft creates a world that is practically infinite in scale- a player could not realistically explore one in a lifetime.

By your rationale such a game must have spontaneously materialized for no particular reason- why would an intelligent designer create such a vast amount of space?

How big is the Minecraft world?

 

[RDKirk]

For a believer (christian) in God and His creation described in The Bible. This should not even muster up an ounce of interest or concern for a believer.

But as many actually do not believe in God's creation given in The Bible. Many believers will try to debate science's creation by trying to make science creation the creation of The Bible. Then try to defend this as God's creation, as a witness to there being a God and not only a God, but a God of the Genesis creation.

Interesting how much doubt and confusion in God's creation in Genesis, satan has sown among creation believing christians.

Science does not buffet my faith at all.

First, I don't believe in God because I know the bible, I believe in the bible because I know God. The bible is just one of the ways God expresses Himself.

Second, believing God created the universe does not put into a box how God created the universe. The bible itself tells us to observe the heavens, to "...ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you." Whatever examination of God's creation reveals is how magnificent His power is.

I read such things and merely say, "Huh. So that's how God did it. Very cool."

 

[Doveaman]

Occasionally the claim comes up that the universe was somehow invented entirely for the benefit of the human race: a bunch of teeny-tiny humans squirreled away on a teeny-tiny planet in a corner of a single galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies.

This reminds of the claim that the entire earth was somehow invented entirely for the benefit of the human embryo: a bunch of teeny-tiny cells squirreled away in a teeny-tiny uterus in a corner of a single planet among hundreds of billions of planets.

(Note: I fully recognize this is kind of a dumb argument. But I thought it was worth making just to give a sense of scale to the size of the universe.)

Why is it a dumb argument? Seems reasonable to me.

 

[driewerf]

Yes, destruction can spiral.

So can growth, as other examples showed. But in both cases you initial claim hasnbeen refuted. That claim was:
" Scientifically, the result can be considered less than the Cause of the effect."

But growth and creation requires infinite intelligence and planning.

Nope that doesn't. Or show it. Does it require an infinite intelligence for a fertilized egg to grow into a whale?

 

[SkyWriting]

So can growth, as other examples showed. But in both cases you initial claim hasnbeen refuted. That claim was:
" Scientifically, the result can be considered less than the Cause of the effect."

Nope that doesn't. Or show it. Does it require an infinite intelligence for a fertilized egg to grow into a whale?

Indeed. Man has not designed even one working cell from scratch.
We are lucky if we can modify a cell without causing havoc.