the Apostle Paul kept the Torah!

[Amber Bird]

Why wouldn't Paul keep the Torah? Wasn't he a Pharisee before he began acting as a disciple of Jesus?
And how would it be wrong if Paul did keep the Torah? Wasn't Jesus sent to further the old testament doctrines with a new covenant built atop that?


What say you netzarim?

 

[Standing Up]

yawn.

Still waiting for that verse that tells us that Peter ate unclean foods.

I already know that the vision was in reference to people. Peter told us so. Twice.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Hope that helps.

 

[Standing Up]

Why wouldn't Paul keep the Torah? Wasn't he a Pharisee before he began acting as a disciple of Jesus?
And how would it be wrong if Paul did keep the Torah? Wasn't Jesus sent to further the old testament doctrines with a new covenant built atop that?


What say you netzarim?

New, not an addition.

 

[tzadik]

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Hope that helps.

tsk tsk tsk. If I had a dollar for the times I've had to address Galatians 2 on here...


11. But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

What was Peter doing here? He was behaving just like a sinner. Just like a Gentile. Don't believe me? Let's see what Messiah has to say about his behavior.

46. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47. "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Peter was guilty of the very thing Messiah taught on at the end of Matthew 5. He was behaving JUST LIKE A GENTILE! For fear of the circumcision judaizing group, he would only hang out with his jewish brethren. Not only that, what makes matters worse, Peter was the one God personally addressed in a vision in Acts 10 instructing him that it's good to deal with Gentile believers!

Not sure you know this but the Torah teaches that "the stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 19:34.

Peter was going against the Torah, and against the teachings of Messiah by behaving like a gentile, or sinner in fear of the circumcision group.

THIS is why he was rebuked by Peter. They were being hypocrites!

13. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

It's funny that many think this "living like Gentiles" was a positive awesome thing, when in actuality it was hypocrisy and dishonest. In fact Paul gives a pretty good definition of what he meant with the term "Gentile" in verse 15!

14. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Peter was behaving like the Gentiles, while trying to compel them to behave like children of God.

15. "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

Hope that helps.

 

[Frogster]

yawn.

Still waiting for that verse that tells us that Peter ate unclean foods.

I already know that the vision was in reference to people. Peter told us so. Twice.

please, what declared the gentiles unclean, but the food laws? why were there animals on the sheet, why did God say eat, and in 11;3, they got mad that PETER ATE...ATE..READ ACTS 11;3, IT SAYS ATE.

OK, now what did paul mean by i became like u in gal 4;12?

 

[Frogster]

tsk tsk tsk. If I had a dollar for the times I've had to address Galatians 2 on here...


11. But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

What was Peter doing here? He was behaving just like a sinner. Just like a Gentile. Don't believe me? Let's see what Messiah has to say about his behavior.

46. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47. "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Peter was guilty of this very thing Messiah taught on at the end of Matthew 5. He was behaving JUST LIKE A GENTILE! For fear of the circumcision judaizing group, he would only hang out with his jewish brethren.

Not sure you know this but the Torah teaches that "the stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 19:34.

Peter was going against the Torah, and against the teachings of Messiah by behaving like a gentile, or sinner in fear of the circumcision group.

THIS is why he was rebuked by Peter. They were being hypocrites!

13. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

It's funny that many think this "living like Gentiles" was a positive awesome thing, when in actuality it was hypocrisy and dishonest. In fact Paul gives a pretty good definition of what he meant with the term "Gentile" in verse 15!

14. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Peter was behaving like the Gentiles, while trying to compel them to behave like children of God.

15. "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

Hope that helps.

lol, so then u r saying that the whole church were living as pagans?

it says eating, it was aboviously about the food. living as a gentiles just meant no torah stuff with food, and festivals.


u should read about peter talkling about virtue in his epistles, like there was peter drunk in the streets with barnabas and the rerst of the jewish christians in antioch?

so that means that by way of rebuke from paul,. they would have to return to their prior "paganistic acts"?

why dou think he went on to say, not just by law...tsk tsk tsk..

 

[Frogster]

u said on the other thread, that u think living as a gentile meant, peter was living as a pagan...sinful paganism type of thing.

 

[Frogster]

tsk tsk tsk. If I had a dollar for the times I've had to address Galatians 2 on here...


11. But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

What was Peter doing here? He was behaving just like a sinner. Just like a Gentile. Don't believe me? Let's see what Messiah has to say about his behavior.

46. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47. "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Peter was guilty of the very thing Messiah taught on at the end of Matthew 5. He was behaving JUST LIKE A GENTILE! For fear of the circumcision judaizing group, he would only hang out with his jewish brethren. Not only that, what makes matters worse, Peter was the one God personally addressed in a vision in Acts 10 instructing him that it's good to deal with Gentile believers!

Not sure you know this but the Torah teaches that "the stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 19:34.

Peter was going against the Torah, and against the teachings of Messiah by behaving like a gentile, or sinner in fear of the circumcision group.

THIS is why he was rebuked by Peter. They were being hypocrites!

13. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

It's funny that many think this "living like Gentiles" was a positive awesome thing, when in actuality it was hypocrisy and dishonest. In fact Paul gives a pretty good definition of what he meant with the term "Gentile" in verse 15!

14. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Peter was behaving like the Gentiles, while trying to compel them to behave like children of God.

15. "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

Hope that helps.

try as u will, it say eating with gentiles, and we all know that the food laws were a major issue, so history proves u wrong.

 

[ananda]

Why wouldn't Paul keep the Torah? Wasn't he a Pharisee before he began acting as a disciple of Jesus?

I believe this is a common error among mainstream Christians: the Pharisees were in fact not strict Torah observers! The Pharisees substituted their own traditions ("Oral Torah") in place of YHWH's Commandments ("Written Torah"). Mainstream Christians misunderstand the Pharisees' observance of their "Oral Torah" and thus wrongly believe them to be strict followers of the Written Torah. The Pharisees believed they were themselves wholly righteous because of their strict observance of Oral Torah, confusing obedience to it with obedience to Written Torah. Paul himself demonstrated this misunderstanding in Phl 3:5,6, and mainstream Christians have been misled as well when they read his statement and arrive at the same erroneous belief regarding Pharisees.

We see confirmation in the writings of Josephus and the Dead Sea Scrolls: the scribes and Pharisees were actually those who abandoned much of Written Torah and were loose in its observation; they were also the group that "loosened the commands" by modifying Written Torah through their own traditions in Oral Torah. The Sadducees were in reality the strict Torah observant group. We also have additional confirmation of this in Scripture when we see Messiah chastising the Pharisees (and their associated scribes) on various occasions, and not the Sadducees. We must indeed be more Torah-observant than the lawless, liberal Pharisees, to enter into the kingdom of heaven (Mt 5:20)!

(The Pharisees' error of adherence to Oral Torah, in spite of Written Torah, is perpetuated today by their direct descendants: Rabbinic - Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform - Judaism.)

And how would it be wrong if Paul did keep the Torah?

Of course it wouldn't be wrong for anyone to follow (Written) Torah ... the very definition of sin is to break the Law (1John 3:4). We avoid sin by following the Law.

With that said, I do believe Pharisee Paul followed the Law when it suited him (just like Messiah accused the Pharisees of doing). For example, in Gal 2:1, Paul stated that he stayed away from Jerusalem for 14 years. In doing so, Paul disobeyed Torah. YHWH required all males to appear before Him in the Temple at Jerusalem three times a year on certain moedim/feast days (Ex 23:17), and obviously Paul did not do that.

Wasn't Jesus sent to further the old testament doctrines with a new covenant built atop that? What say you netzarim?

I believe Messiah came to throw off all the traditions (Oral Torah) which had built up around the Written Torah, to restore Israel to YHWH's pure Word. He will usher in the New Covenant, which will see Torah written on our hearts, during His millenial reign on earth.

 

[tzadik]

please, what declared the gentiles unclean, but the food laws?

Where in the world do you get this stuff!?

why were there animals on the sheet, why did God say eat, and in 11;3, they got mad that PETER ATE...ATE..READ ACTS 11;3, IT SAYS ATE.

All valid questions, but that doesn't change the fact that you are ASSUMING he ate unclean foods. Scripture NEVER mentions it. EVER. So you can beat around that bush all you want, but at the end of the day you must admit that in order for you to use Peter as your "pork backup" you will have to resort to assumptions. Anyone can assume anything they want in the Bible.

Truth, however is found in the text!

lol in fact the one TRUE fact we know is that Peter has NEVER eaten anything unclean! He says so! in plain English/Hebrew/Greek.

 

[tzadik]

try as u will, it say eating with gentiles, and we all know that the food laws were a major issue, so history proves u wrong.

You using assumptions as your #1 backup proves you wrong.

 

[Frogster]

Why wouldn't Paul keep the Torah? Wasn't he a Pharisee before he began acting as a disciple of Jesus?
And how would it be wrong if Paul did keep the Torah? Wasn't Jesus sent to further the old testament doctrines with a new covenant built atop that?


What say you netzarim?

paul could not live torah, he just rebuked peter for declaring the gentiles unclean, when peter reverted back to torah, we need to forget the torah.

 

[Frogster]

You using assumptions as your #1 backup proves you wrong.

if the food laws were not the contention, why the sheet, filled with animals?

why does acts 11;3 say they criticized peter, after he ATE...ATE...

 

[tzadik]

paul could not live torah, he just rebuked peter for declaring the gentiles unclean, when peter reverted back to torah, we need to forget the torah.

Spoken like a true anti-Torah champ.

Matthew 24:12 much?

 

[tzadik]

if the food laws were not the contention, why the sheet, filled with animals?

why does acts 11;3 say they criticized peter, after he ATE...ATE...

assumption one.
unclean animals on the sheet MUST mean that Peter ate them.

assumption two.
peter eating with Gentile believers, must mean that peter ate unclean foods.

HUGE assumptions.

squasher one.
Peter told everyone exactly what the vision meant TWICE. both times---people--never food.

squasher two.
All Gentile believers in the "NT" lived their lives according to the ONLY Scriptures they learned from [Scriptures that would include Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.]

 

[Standing Up]

tsk tsk tsk. If I had a dollar for the times I've had to address Galatians 2 on here...


11. But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

What was Peter doing here? He was behaving just like a sinner. Just like a Gentile.

Okay, leaving superlatives aside, you agree Peter was eating unclean foods, just like a (hold your nose) sinner Gentile. Oops, not leaving aside the superlatives.

Don't believe me? Let's see what Messiah has to say about his behavior.

46. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47. "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Peter was guilty of the very thing Messiah taught on at the end of Matthew 5. He was behaving JUST LIKE A GENTILE! For fear of the circumcision judaizing group, he would only hang out with his jewish brethren.

Hold on. Your interpretation is a complete reversal of the point. Jesus is saying greet not only your brothers (Jewish), but also your "non" brothers (Gentiles).

Not only that, what makes matters worse, Peter was the one God personally addressed in a vision in Acts 10 instructing him that it's good to deal with Gentile believers!

Indeed. We've already agreed that Peter was eating unclean food with the sinner Gentiles.

Not sure you know this but the Torah teaches that "the stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 19:34.

Peter was going against the Torah, and against the teachings of Messiah by behaving like a gentile, or sinner in fear of the circumcision group.

THIS is why he was rebuked by Peter. They were being hypocrites!

What? We agreed Peter was eating unclean food with the sinner Gentiles. BUT when the party from James son of Joseph/Mary came to town, Peter pulled back. Even Barnabas was caught up in the hypocrisy.

13. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

It's funny that many think this "living like Gentiles" was a positive awesome thing, when in actuality it was hypocrisy and dishonest.

The dishonesty was in the fact that Peter followed Jesus' command, UNTIL the party from James son of Joseph/Mary arrived. At that point, he became hypocritical. What Peter believed (okay to eat unclean foods with sinner gentiles), was not what Peter practiced (sat with James' party).

In fact Paul gives a pretty good definition of what he meant with the term "Gentile" in verse 15!

14. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Peter was behaving like the Gentiles, while trying to compel them to behave like children of God.

15. "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

Hope that helps.

Not unless you finish Paul's thought, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law [LIKE EATING UNCLEAN FOODS], but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Hope that helps.

 

[tzadik]

Okay, leaving superlatives aside, you agree Peter was eating unclean foods, just like a (hold your nose) sinner Gentile. Oops, not leaving aside the superlatives.

Hold on. Your interpretation is a complete reversal of the point. Jesus is saying greet not only your brothers (Jewish), but also your "non" brothers (Gentiles).

Indeed. We've already agreed that Peter was eating unclean food with the sinner Gentiles.

What? We agreed Peter was eating unclean food with the sinner Gentiles. BUT when the party from James son of Joseph/Mary came to town, Peter pulled back. Even Barnabas was caught up in the hypocrisy.

The dishonesty was in the fact that Peter followed Jesus' command, UNTIL the party from James son of Joseph/Mary arrived. At that point, he became hypocritical. What Peter believed (okay to eat unclean foods with sinner gentiles), was not what Peter practiced (sat with James' party).

Not unless you finish Paul's thought, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law [LIKE EATING UNCLEAN FOODS], but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Hope that helps.

Like I mentioned to your pal Froggy...there is ZERO mention iN Scriptures that Peter, or better yet, any true believer ate any unclean foods.

It's ALL assumed.

What we DO know is that Peter says in Acts 10 that he's NEVER eaten anything unclean. That is the ONLY non-assumed fact.

And I'm sure everyone should know that NO one is justified by works of the law

Should be common knowledge, seeing the Law of God was NOT given for redemption but for instruction

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Okay, leaving superlatives aside, you agree Peter was eating unclean foods, just like a (hold your nose) sinner Gentile. Oops, not leaving aside the superlatives.​

​

​

Like I mentioned to your pal Froggy...there is ZERO mention iN Scriptures that Peter, or better yet, any true believer ate any unclean foods.

Ya may have a point there bro

 

[weathered]

Ya may have a point there bro

Paul said meat doesn't destroy Gods work, and i don't see peter contradicting him or rebuking him. We are free from the law, Paul and James both refer to liberty and no apostle teaches that we observe any holy day or food law that i can see.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Paul said meat doesn't destroy Gods work, and i don't see peter contradicting him or rebuking him. We are free from the law, Paul and James both refer to liberty and no apostle teaches that we observe any holy day or food law that i can see.

I would tend to agree and one reason I started this thread earlier

http://www.christianforums.com/t7538322/
Romans 14:14,15 Did Paul declare all foods clean? [poll thread]