the Apostle Paul kept the Torah!

[bugkiller]

I was speaking about the LAW, and what it instructs. Prior to the Gospel of our Salvation in Christ. Even under Moses, redemption was via, the prior covenant made with their father Abraham.

There never has been any redemption in any other covenant except the NC by grace.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I was speaking about the LAW, and what it instructs. Prior to the Gospel of our Salvation in Christ.
Even under Moses, redemption was via, the prior covenant made with their father Abraham.

What is your view of this covenantle parable in Luke 16? Thanks

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:26 " 'And besides all this, between us[Abraham/Grace/Life] and ye[Moses/Law/Death] there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "

What is the "great gulf" which stands between the rich man and Lazarus? Paul aptly explains it to us in the 11th chapter of Romans. He tells us that God has blinded the Jews and "given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day" (Rom. 11:8).
He goes on to say that "a partial hardening would happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles had come in" (Rom. 11:25). In II Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul says that the Jews' "minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart."

The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions! Yet because of the Eternal Father's great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26).

 

[annier]

What is your view of this covenantle parable in Luke 16? Thanks

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary


What is the "great gulf" which stands between the rich man and Lazarus? Paul aptly explains it to us in the 11th chapter of Romans. He tells us that God has blinded the Jews and "given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day" (Rom. 11:8).
He goes on to say that "a partial hardening would happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles had come in" (Rom. 11:25). In II Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul says that the Jews' "minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart."

The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions! Yet because of the Eternal Father's great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26).

As for the great gulf, I would say is death itself, from the law. But I never thought about that one much. Good question though. The reason I say death itself, is because of this.
Concerning the resurrection......
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Also corresponding to the eternal nature of the ORDER of Christ as our high priest.

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

And as for the covenant.

Take note of what is spoken to Abraham personally, in the 1st covenant in verse .
12 ¶ And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 ¶ And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land,

Abraham was told he was going to die. The promise of his in heritance in the land HAD ALWAYS BEEN AFTER HE HAD DIED. Therefore Abe, Isaac, and Jacob and Joseph all looked to the resurrection to attain the promises. For the inheritance that was to the seed in this life was to the 4th Generation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

What is your view of this covenantle parable in Luke 16? Thanks

​

As for the great gulf, I would say is death itself, from the law. But I never thought about that one much. Good question though. The reason I say death itself, is because of this.
Concerning the resurrection......
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Also corresponding to the eternal nature of the ORDER of Christ as our high priest.

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

And as for the covenant.

Take note of what is spoken to Abraham personally, in the 1st covenant in verse .
12 ¶ And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 ¶ And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land,

Good post!
I will look at it tomorrow

I may also post it on this thead I created....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436472/
Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".



.

 

[annier]

Then was God foolish in offering up His only begotten Son to provide redemption?

bugkiller

No. The redemption in Moses was only earthly. A shadow. It concerned the inheritance to Abrams seed of the 4th generation. We inherit the kingdom in the next life in Christ. That is also the inheritance Abraham, Isaac, a Jacob and Joseph looked forward to.
Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

 

[annier]

There never has been any redemption in any other covenant except the NC by grace.

bugkiller

??????
Israel was not redeemed from slavery in Egypt? Come on.
The covenant of circumcision ALWAYS BROUGHT THEM BACK TO THE PROMISED INHERITANCE. This is speaking of their worldly, earthly promises. I know scripture says that the glory of the new covenant, makes the lesser glory of the old SEEM as no Glory in comparison. But, the redemption of Israel from Egypt was by the covenant made with their fathers. So too is the Passover, and feast of unlevened bread a service to that covenant. It was a SHADOW. That covenant is about GOD'S FAITHFULNESS, not theirs. There is no salvation and redemption by the law. It is by God's faithfulness.

 

[bugkiller]

No. The redemption in Moses was only earthly. A shadow. It concerned the inheritance to Abrams seed of the 4th generation. We inherit the kingdom in the next life in Christ. That is also the inheritance Abraham, Isaac, a Jacob and Joseph looked forward to.
Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

What were they redeemed from with redemption in Moses an earthly redemption? I do not understand what you mean by earthly or that redempthion was such.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

??????
Israel was not redeemed from slavery in Egypt? Come on.
The covenant of circumcision ALWAYS BROUGHT THEM BACK TO THE PROMISED INHERITANCE. This is speaking of their worldly, earthly promises. I know scripture says that the glory of the new covenant, makes the lesser glory of the old SEEM as no Glory in comparison. But, the redemption of Israel from Egypt was by the covenant made with their fathers. So too is the Passover, and feast of unlevened bread a service to that covenant. It was a SHADOW. That covenant is about GOD'S FAITHFULNESS, not theirs. There is no salvation and redemption by the law. It is by God's faithfulness.

OK you can have earthly redemption if you like. I love the spiritual redemption idea much better. It is my soul I am concerned with and not my body which will never be redeemed.

The covenant of circumcision brought what inheritance? I never heard that before. Is that inheritance something everyone should desire?

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

??????
Israel was not redeemed from slavery in Egypt? Come on.
The covenant of circumcision ALWAYS BROUGHT THEM BACK TO THE PROMISED INHERITANCE. This is speaking of their worldly, earthly promises. I know scripture says that the glory of the new covenant, makes the lesser glory of the old SEEM as no Glory in comparison. But, the redemption of Israel from Egypt was by the covenant made with their fathers. So too is the Passover, and feast of unlevened bread a service to that covenant. It was a SHADOW. That covenant is about GOD'S FAITHFULNESS, not theirs. There is no salvation and redemption by the law. It is by God's faithfulness.

the the bottom line is when the new man was created, and NT theology shows the cross, as the redemption line.
romans 5, the ONE act, the ONE man, eph 2 the cross, eph 4, col 3, new manm, 2 cor 5;17, new creation, etc,. They were all in adam unless you can show otherwise, all dead in adam #1, all alive only in adam #2.

 

[annier]

OK you can have earthly redemption if you like.

What do you mean by that?

I love the spiritual redemption idea much better. It is my soul I am concerned with and not my body which will never be redeemed.

I like it much better too. That is the more glorious redemption my post mentioned. Which is why I do not understand your comment above.

The covenant of circumcision brought what inheritance?

The covenant made with Abraham in the flesh, gave the Israelites the land of caanan.

I never heard that before. Is that inheritance something everyone should desire?

bugkiller

Read exodus. It is a shadow of the inheritance we all have in Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

By the way, saint Paul didn't keep Torah; how could he, he was no longer able to offer sacrifices for sins because the one and only acceptable sacrifice was made for him and he was a partaker of the sacred meal in which he ate the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

So, since the Law contains no more than a reflection of the good things which were still to come, and no true image of them, it is quite incapable of bringing the worshippers to perfection, by means of the same sacrifices repeatedly offered year after year. Otherwise, surely the offering of them would have stopped, because the worshippers, when they had been purified once, would have no awareness of sins. But in fact the sins are recalled year after year in the sacrifices. Bulls' blood and goats' blood are incapable of taking away sins, and that is why he said, on coming into the world: You wanted no sacrifice or cereal offering, but you gave me a body. You took no pleasure in burnt offering or sacrifice for sin; then I said, 'Here I am, I am coming,' in the scroll of the book it is written of me, to do your will, God. He says first You did not want what the Law lays down as the things to be offered, that is: the sacrifices, the cereal offerings, the burnt offerings and the sacrifices for sin, and you took no pleasure in them; and then he says: Here I am! I am coming to do your will. He is abolishing the first sort to establish the second. And this will was for us to be made holy by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ made once and for all.
(Hebrews 10:1-10)

If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them.
(Hebrews 10:26)

 

[annier]

What were they redeemed from with redemption in Moses an earthly redemption? I do not understand what you mean by earthly or that redempthion was such.

bugkiller

Earthly, worldly, a SHADOW. The kingdom of priests, which was a shadow of the hevenly realities we all have in Christ.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The Sinai/Horeb covenant covenant was not made with their fathers....
Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.


De 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all looked forward to the eternal inheritance, promised after this world and this life

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by bugkiller What were they redeemed from with redemption in Moses an earthly redemption? I do not understand what you mean by earthly or that redempthion was such.

bugkiller

Earthly, worldly, a SHADOW.
The kingdom of priests, which was a shadow of the hevenly realities we all have in Christ.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
.

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1

TABERNACLE SHADOWS
OF
THE BETTER SACRIFICES

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes/Shadows.

THE Tabernacle which God commanded the people of Israel to construct in the Wilderness of Sin, and in connection with which all their religious services and ceremonies were instituted, was, the Apostle Paul assures us, a shadow of good things to come. (`Heb. 8:5; 10:1`; `Col. 2:17`) In fact, the whole nation of Israel, as well as its laws and its religious services and ceremonies, was typical.

This being true, our understanding of the plan and work of salvation now in progress, as well as their future development, cannot fail to be greatly enlightened by a careful study of those "shadows" which the Israelites, for our edification, were caused to repeat year by year continually until the Gospel age introduced their antitypes--the realities. `1 Pet. 1:11`; `Heb. 10:1-3`
It is not simply to gain a historical knowledge of the Jewish forms, ceremonies and worship that we come to the investigation

.​

 

[brinny]

By the way, saint Paul didn't keep Torah; how could he, he was no longer able to offer sacrifices for sins because the one and only acceptable sacrifice was made for him and he was a partaker of the sacred meal in which he ate the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

So, since the Law contains no more than a reflection of the good things which were still to come, and no true image of them, it is quite incapable of bringing the worshippers to perfection, by means of the same sacrifices repeatedly offered year after year. Otherwise, surely the offering of them would have stopped, because the worshippers, when they had been purified once, would have no awareness of sins. But in fact the sins are recalled year after year in the sacrifices. Bulls' blood and goats' blood are incapable of taking away sins, and that is why he said, on coming into the world: You wanted no sacrifice or cereal offering, but you gave me a body. You took no pleasure in burnt offering or sacrifice for sin; then I said, 'Here I am, I am coming,' in the scroll of the book it is written of me, to do your will, God. He says first You did not want what the Law lays down as the things to be offered, that is: the sacrifices, the cereal offerings, the burnt offerings and the sacrifices for sin, and you took no pleasure in them; and then he says: Here I am! I am coming to do your will. He is abolishing the first sort to establish the second. And this will was for us to be made holy by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ made once and for all.
(Hebrews 10:1-10)

If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them.
(Hebrews 10:26)

Exactly.

 

[brinny]

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1

TABERNACLE SHADOWS
OF
THE BETTER SACRIFICES

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes/Shadows.

THE Tabernacle which God commanded the people of Israel to construct in the Wilderness of Sin, and in connection with which all their religious services and ceremonies were instituted, was, the Apostle Paul assures us, a shadow of good things to come. (`Heb. 8:5; 10:1`; `Col. 2:17`) In fact, the whole nation of Israel, as well as its laws and its religious services and ceremonies, was typical.

This being true, our understanding of the plan and work of salvation now in progress, as well as their future development, cannot fail to be greatly enlightened by a careful study of those "shadows" which the Israelites, for our edification, were caused to repeat year by year continually until the Gospel age introduced their antitypes--the realities. `1 Pet. 1:11`; `Heb. 10:1-3`
It is not simply to gain a historical knowledge of the Jewish forms, ceremonies and worship that we come to the investigation

a foreshadowing, amen.

 

[The Hermit]

So who has the final authority to determine who is or is not MJ?

Do you know?

 

[bugkiller]

Earthly, worldly, a SHADOW. The kingdom of priests, which was a shadow of the hevenly realities we all have in Christ.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The Sinai/Horeb covenant covenant was not made with their fathers....
Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.


De 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all looked forward to the eternal inheritance, promised after this world and this life

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

So I am confused here. What covenant did God make with the COI. Mt Sinai is in Horeb. This is the same place the way I read the Scripture and see the atlas.

What covenant is Moses talking about in Deut 5? It seems that the same chapter talks about the contents of the stone tablets. Is that not the covenant?

Sorry but I can not connect the Hebrews passage you present being associated with Deut 5. Moses presents nothing based on promises in Deut 5. Moses does present the 10 Cs though.

How do you related Deut 5 to Abarham' covenants? He did not have the 10 Cs or the law.

So Abraham, Isaac and Jacob looked for something beyond this life. That provision is not made in the covenant issued to Israel in Horeb at Mt Siani. This same covenant was not issued to Israel according to Rom 11:32 where it explicitly states God made them violators (apeitheia - obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will). This definitely is not the righteousness imputed to Abraham spoken about in Romans 4 or the faith in Hebrew 11.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

As for the great gulf, I would say is death itself, from the law. But I never thought about that one much. Good question though. The reason I say death itself, is because of this.
Concerning the resurrection......
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Also corresponding to the eternal nature of the ORDER of Christ as our high priest.

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

And as for the covenant.

Take note of what is spoken to Abraham personally, in the 1st covenant in verse .
12 ¶ And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 ¶ And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land,

Abraham was told he was going to die. The promise of his in heritance in the land HAD ALWAYS BEEN AFTER HE HAD DIED. Therefore Abe, Isaac, and Jacob and Joseph all looked to the resurrection to attain the promises. For the inheritance that was to the seed in this life was to the 4th Generation.

But both men were dead.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

No. The redemption in Moses was only earthly. A shadow. It concerned the inheritance to Abrams seed of the 4th generation. We inherit the kingdom in the next life in Christ. That is also the inheritance Abraham, Isaac, a Jacob and Joseph looked forward to.
Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

So how does that line up with the promise given to Abraham?

There are 2 covenants made with Abraham. One about the land of Canaan and another about eternal matters. See any book about theology to help you in this.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

What is your view of this covenantle parable in Luke 16? Thanks

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary


What is the "great gulf" which stands between the rich man and Lazarus? Paul aptly explains it to us in the 11th chapter of Romans. He tells us that God has blinded the Jews and "given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day" (Rom. 11:8).
He goes on to say that "a partial hardening would happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles had come in" (Rom. 11:25). In II Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul says that the Jews' "minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart."

The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions! Yet because of the Eternal Father's great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26).
​

As for the great gulf, I would say is death itself, from the law. But I never thought about that one much. Good question though. The reason I say death itself, is because of this.
Concerning the resurrection......
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Also corresponding to the eternal nature of the ORDER of Christ as our high priest.

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

And as for the covenant.

Take note of what is spoken to Abraham personally, in the 1st covenant in verse .
12 ¶ And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 ¶ And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land,

Abraham was told he was going to die. The promise of his in heritance in the land HAD ALWAYS BEEN AFTER HE HAD DIED. Therefore Abe, Isaac, and Jacob and Joseph all looked to the resurrection to attain the promises. For the inheritance that was to the seed in this life was to the 4th Generation.

Excellent!

I am going to put your post on this thread I have on that "great gulf" in Luke 16

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436472/
Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".

Tis true. Jesus spoke many parables to the Judeans/Israelites He came to, which also was prophecied He would do in the OT/OT

Isaiah 28:11 And with stammering/deriding lip and in-tongue, another He shall speak to the people, this.

Ezekiel 17:2 Son of adam, propound thou a riddle and speak thou a proverb/04912 mashal unto house of Israel

I would say it also helps if one goes back to the OT/OC of the Bible to understand this parable, keeping in mind the AUDIENCE our Lord was talking to then.

A view I have is that great chasm could be representing "FAITH" and Hebrews 11:29 brings that up concerning the OC Hebrews crossing the divided Red Sea. Thoughts?

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm hath been established so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276> (5725)

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

.