the Apostle Paul kept the Torah!

[Steve Petersen]

but the first elementals in 4, was the law paul and jesus were under, that is a fact. So that confrims the definition of the second wordage of elementals in 4;9.

Source?

Elementalism - . motivated by or symbolic of primitive and powerful natural forces or passions: elemental rites of worship

 

[Frogster]

Source?

sure steve, by the way prager is cool see we have something in common.

ok, paul said WE were under elemenatals, the only thing paul was under was judaism he is in the WE, he then goes on to say, jesus was born under the law, establishing that the elementals or 4;3, it had to be judaism.


3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.

the children were the jews in 4:1-7.

ok, now look how he mentions jesus born under law. to redeem those born under it, proving the definition of the elementals, which can also mean abc's in the greek, which would be confimed with the children word od 4;3, and the child of 4;1



4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons

so 1-7 is about paul, and jesus born under the law, until the redemption came, the abc's of 4:3 were judaism.

paul and Jesus were under the law, a fact that the text bears out.

what other law could he be referring to, for him and Jesus in 4, besides, we know the redemption was from the mosaic law, gal 3;13, same redemption word as in 4;5, the law.

 

[Frogster]

Source?

Elementalism - . motivated by or symbolic of primitive and powerful natural forces or passions: elemental rites of worship

elementals or worlds crude notions can also mean spirits, but the abc's fits here, same stoichen (check spelling )as heb 5;12, and that context of the simple doctrine, they did not know.

 

[Shimshon]

Here Paul is obviously talking to people who had formerly been pagan.

Yes he is and he's telling them not to fall back into following days months and seasons. But, not back into paganism but into Judaism. Because others came teaching them they need to follow the law. Paul is telling them that they don't need to follow days months and seasons all over again. not when they were formerly pagans and not now within Judaism

 

[MoreCoffee]

whoops, duplicated post! wonder how that happened.... I am sure I clicked the button only once!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Originally Posted by Steve Petersen

Here Paul is obviously talking to people who had formerly been pagan.

Yes he is and he's telling them not to fall back into following days months and seasons. But, not back into paganism but into Judaism. Because others came teaching them they need to follow the law. Paul is telling them that they don't need to follow days months and seasons all over again. not when they were formerly pagans and not now within Judaism

The above is obviously not True for the Reasons that Frogster gave. Other reasons are also obvious. It appears to be a bit of spin, religious spin for the sake of shoring up an unsupportable doctrine about Sabbath and Law observance. [These remarks apply to Steve Petersen's post]

 

[Frogster]

Yes he is and he's telling them not to fall back into following days months and seasons. But, not back into paganism but into Judaism. Because others came teaching them they need to follow the law. Paul is telling them that they don't need to follow days months and seasons all over again. not when they were formerly pagans and not now within Judaism

yes, agreed, they were pagans.

 

[Frogster]

The above is obviously not True for the Reasons that Frogster gave. Other reasons are also obvious. It appears to be a bit of spin, religious spin for the sake of shoring up an unsupportable doctrine about Sabbath and Law observance.

agreed, and gimmie some coffee!

 

[annier]

Yes he is and he's telling them not to fall back into following days months and seasons. But, not back into paganism but into Judaism. Because others came teaching them they need to follow the law. Paul is telling them that they don't need to follow days months and seasons all over again. not when they were formerly pagans and not now within Judaism

Yep, weak and beggarly elements of the Levitical priesthood...

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

[Steve Petersen]

In the Roman world, if you were not a member of a licit religion (like Judaism) you were expected to participate in the Imperial cult.

Gentiles become believers in Jesus, but Paul won't let them convert to Judaism, which would allow them to avoid the Roman charge of atheism. But, being believers in God, they could not very well participate in the Roman imperial cult either.

Their tenuous situation made them vulnerable to moving one way or the other, back to paganism or into Judaism (via conversion.)

Mind you, in cities, if you were not a member in some kind of guild, it was nearly impossible for a tradesman to find work. Guilds had their own religious cults on top of the Roman imperial cult.

The need to be a member of one group or another could be a matter of life and death.

 

[Frogster]

In the Roman world, if you were not a member of a licit religion (like Judaism) you were expected to participate in the Imperial cult.

Gentiles become believers in Jesus, but Paul won't let them convert to Judaism, which would allow them to avoid the Roman charge of atheism. But, being believers in God, they could not very well participate in the Roman imperial cult either.

Their tenuous situation made them vulnerable to moving one way or the other, back to paganism or into Judaism (via conversion.)

Mind you, in cities, if you were not a member in some kind of guild, it was nearly impossible for a tradesman to find work. Guilds had their own religious cults on top of the Roman imperial cult.

The need to be a member of one group or another could be a matter of life and death.

i know about the cult, but we don't see paul fighting off the cult, but they were going to law, 4:21, and 5:3, not the cult, the direction is clear, and the whole of the text is clear.

the covenantal comparison between Abraham, and Moses is clear too, proving what the argument was. Paul was not fighting the cult, the "two front" argument that some believe in is not a valid one.

 

[Habakk]

nope, peter, paul, barnabas, and the rest of the jews were living as gentiles in antioch..

love the amplified...

gal 4:12 Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [[e]a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [[f]in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].

Proof texting wars with the amplified version now.

 

[bugkiller]

Yes he is and he's telling them not to fall back into following days months and seasons. But, not back into paganism but into Judaism. Because others came teaching them they need to follow the law. Paul is telling them that they don't need to follow days months and seasons all over again. not when they were formerly pagans and not now within Judaism

Does not this also apply to Jewish Christians? I would think so. I do wonder if the Jewish Christians are the problem here. I think Paul indicates false brethern infiltrating the Church. False brethern are not Christians. Gal 2:4 - And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

agreed, and gimmie some coffee!

The Irish stuff?

bugkiller

 

[Shimshon]

Does not this also apply to Jewish Christians? I would think so. I do wonder if the Jewish Christians are the problem here. I think Paul indicates false brethern infiltrating the Church. False brethern are not Christians. Gal 2:4 - And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

bugkiller

Sadly, yes, just like today. And here in these forums. Those who claim to be part of us have departed with a message not from God. But that does not make all Jewish Christians/Messianic Jews false bretheren. Paul himself was a Jew, as am I. But I am quite the minority here. Then again, so was Paul in his land. He was continually beat, stoned, and chased out town. Even his own home land. Just like the suffering Yeshua said we would encounter for holding 'His' message.

But yes, the problem was the heretical Jewish believers who demanded observance to the Law of Moses to complete their 'conversion' into the Kingdom.

Yeshua is our covering and the one who converts our hearts into a circumcised work of His own. Not made by hands of men through ritual circumcision or obervances to the Law, but by the hands of God through the Spirit who does the good works of God within you.

 

[bugkiller]

i know about the cult, but we don't see paul fighting off the cult, but they were going to law, 4:21, and 5:3, not the cult, the direction is clear, and the whole of the text is clear.

the covenantal comparison between Abraham, and Moses is clear too, proving what the argument was. Paul was not fighting the cult, the "two front" argument that some believe in is not a valid one.

bugkiller

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Irish stuff?

bugkiller

Oh yes! We like the Irish stuff

 

[bugkiller]

Sadly, yes, just like today. And here in these forums. Those who claim to be part of us have departed with a message not from God. But that does not make all Jewish Christians/Messianic Jews false bretheren. Paul himself was a Jew, as am I. But I am quite the minority here. Then again, so was Paul in his land. He was continually beat, stoned, and chased out town. Even his own home land. Just like the suffering Yeshua said we would encounter for holding 'His' message.

But yes, the problem was the heretical Jewish believers who demanded observance to the Law of Moses to complete their 'conversion' into the Kingdom.

Yeshua is our covering and the one who converts our hearts into a circumcised work of His own. Not made by hands of men through ritual circumcision or obervances to the Law, but by the hands of God through the Spirit who does the good works of God within you.

Yeah discussing the MJ movement or real MJ folks is a messey endoeavor here. Unfortunately there are few true MJ folks posting here. Our problem comes from the people of MJ movement of which true MJ are not a part of in my understanding.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by bugkiller The Irish stuff?

Oh yes! We like the Irish stuff

Ever see this movie "Only The Lonely", where Maureen O'Hara stars as an feisty Irish Catholic and her son [John Candy..RIP] falls in love with a Jewish mortician?

Only the Lonely (1991) Trailer - YouTube

 

[Frogster]

Proof texting wars with the amplified version now.

hey, give a guy a break!

besides, that is what it means, unless you can show otherwise.