the Apostle Paul kept the Torah!

[Frogster]

Froggy's god?

I was under the impression it was Paul's god that changed it

http://www.christianforums.com/t7538322/
Romans 14:14,15 Did Paul declare all foods clean?



.

ribster to the lambster!

 

[MoreCoffee]

It isn't as if there is no Law, those who are separated from Christ and who know the Law will be judged by it. Those who are united with Christ, who died with him in baptism, are dead to the Law and will rise with Christ to everlasting life. That is part of the gospel message. It is strange that so many do not want to live in the freedom wherewith Christ has made them free.

 

[Steve Petersen]

It isn't as if there is no Law, those who are separated from Christ and who know the Law will be judged by it. Those who are united with Christ, who died with him in baptism, are dead to the Law and will rise with Christ to everlasting life. That is part of the gospel message. It is strange that so many do not want to live in the freedom wherewith Christ has made them free.

Freedom to behave how?

What constitutes sin in this gospel?

 

[MoreCoffee]

It isn't as if there is no Law, those who are separated from Christ and who know the Law will be judged by it. Those who are united with Christ, who died with him in baptism, are dead to the Law and will rise with Christ to everlasting life. That is part of the gospel message. It is strange that so many do not want to live in the freedom wherewith Christ has made them free.

Freedom to behave how?

What constitutes sin in this gospel?

Well, when I mentioned freedom I was alluding to something in saint Paul's letters. Here, let me quote it for you.

For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
(Galatians 5:1-6)

For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another.
(Galatians 5:13-15)

I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ (Jesus) have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
(Galatians 5:16-26)
​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee It isn't as if there is no Law, those who are separated from Christ and who know the Law will be judged by it.

Freedom to behave how?

What constitutes sin in this gospel?

Originally Posted by Steve Petersen The first of the times of 'no law' ended with a Great Flood; the second with rebellion against God and into idolatry for the world. Is this the goal? Not good.

Then God chose Abraham of whom it was said in the Scripture:

Let me ask this.
Was Abraham aware of what he could and couldn't eat, as those food laws were not instituted till Moses.

Look at this conversation between him and the "rich man" in this covenantle parable in Luke 16.

Was this believer, "rich man", in "hell" for eating pork and shrimp?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "

First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39).
The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames").
It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.

LUKE 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things;
but now he is comforted and thou are tormented.

Abraham clearly identifies the rich man as his descendant by calling him "son." He tells him that things have changed.
When the Jews were God's chosen people, they enjoyed the spiritual blessings associated with that status. But now, Abraham says, Lazarus is enjoying those blessings while the rich man is grieving and in sorrow.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One wonders why freedom from the Law is such a fraught concept for some, saint Paul explains many times how we are freed from the Law and what Christian freedom means.

Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace. For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
(Romans 8:1-13)
​

 

[Steve Petersen]

Well, when I mentioned freedom I was alluding to something in saint Paul's letters. Here, let me quote it for you.

For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
(Galatians 5:1-6)

For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another.
(Galatians 5:13-15)

I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ (Jesus) have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
(Galatians 5:16-26)
​

Against doing good there is now Law. Absolutely.

But the categories of sin listed above beg definition. Where do you find that definition? (e.g. immorality, idolatry, licentiousness...hint: Romans 7)

 

[bugkiller]

Against doing good there is now Law. Absolutely.

But the categories of sin listed above beg definition. Where do you find that definition? (e.g. immorality, idolatry, licentiousness...)

Well I find definition from the dictionary on those words. The law only says not to do them. It does not say what they are or mean. Romans shows that gentiles did not get their idea of evil from the law.

You are trying to get someone to say we know that those activites are sin (evil) only because of the law. Not so because Moses knew muerder was wrong and could cost him his life prior to the law. Same goes for Joseph on adultery.

bugkiller

 

[Steve Petersen]

You are trying to get someone to say we know that those activites are sin (evil) only because of the law. Not so because Moses knew muerder was wrong and could cost him his life prior to the law. Same goes for Joseph on adultery.

bugkiller

I didn't say that. Paul did. So did John.

Romans 7: Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness

.

 

[Frogster]

Against doing good there is now Law. Absolutely.

But the categories of sin listed above beg definition. Where do you find that definition? (e.g. immorality, idolatry, licentiousness...hint: Romans 7)

rom 7, where sin used the command in 7;8, and 7:11?

rom 5, where the law was added to increase the sin?

Rom 6;14 where sin has dominion under law?

please advise.

 

[Frogster]

I didn't say that. Paul did. So did John.



.

but John also said he took away sin, and in 1 John 3:23 talked about two commands.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Against doing good there is now Law. Absolutely.

But the categories of sin listed above beg definition. Where do you find that definition? (e.g. immorality, idolatry, licentiousness...hint: Romans 7)

I would have thought that the Law would act as tutor to teach you what sin is but that the Law would have no power to help you avoid sin. Isn't that also a part of the gospel? The Law tells you what not to do but cannot tell you what to do nor give you power to do it. Isn't that why there's a law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? The Spirit is the one who sets free from the condemnation of the sins that the Law defines. The Spirit doesn't set you free by forcing obedience upon you, does he? Christians hold the Law in high esteem but do not depend on observing/obeying it. Forgiveness, renewal, receiving Christ in baptism, Eucharist, prayer, worship, and through the ever present Holy Spirit is where Christians get their life, not by obedience to the demands of the Law.

Let saint Paul explain:

I mean that as long as the heir is not of age, he is no different from a slave, although he is the owner of everything, but he is under the supervision of guardians and administrators until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were not of age, were enslaved to the elemental powers of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption. As proof that you are children, God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir, through God.
(Galatians 4:1-7)
​

Saint Paul also warns that the freedom we have in Christ ought not to be thrown away:

At a time when you did not know God, you became slaves to things that by nature are not gods; but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again? You are observing days, months, seasons, and years. I am afraid on your account that perhaps I have labored for you in vain.
(Galatians 4:8-11)
​

 

[Steve Petersen]

I would have thought that the Law would act as tutor to teach you what sin is but that the Law would have no power to help you avoid sin. Isn't that also a part of the gospel? The Law tells you what not to do but cannot tell you what to do nor give you power to do it. Isn't that why there's a law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? The Spirit is the one who sets free from the condemnation of the sins that the Law defines. The Spirit doesn't set you free by forcing obedience upon you, does he? Christians hold the Law in high esteem but do not depend on observing/obeying it. Forgiveness, renewal, receiving Christ in baptism, Eucharist, prayer, worship, and through the ever present Holy Spirit is where Christians get their life, not by obedience to the demands of the Law.

I agree 100%. So what are we arguing about?

Let saint Paul explain:

I mean that as long as the heir is not of age, he is no different from a slave, although he is the owner of everything, but he is under the supervision of guardians and administrators until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were not of age, were enslaved to the elemental powers of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption. As proof that you are children, God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir, through God.
(Galatians 4:1-7)
​

Good, in as far as it goes. There is more than ONE PURPOSE of the Law though. Besides being guardian, it is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteouness (it is a part of ALL SCRIPTURE, no?)

Saint Paul also warns that the freedom we have in Christ ought not to be thrown away:

At a time when you did not know God, you became slaves to things that by nature are not gods; but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again? You are observing days, months, seasons, and years. I am afraid on your account that perhaps I have labored for you in vain.
(Galatians 4:8-11)
​

Paul is not referencing the Law here, but pagan superstition. Elemetalism is part of most paganism: earth, air, fire, water.

Funny Paul says 'days, months, seasons, and years' but NOT ONCE does he NAME any of God's holy days! He is referring here to days observed by pagans (e.g., Saturnalia, Calends, etc.) This is completely in the vein of the previous verses.

 

[Frogster]

I agree 100%. So what are we arguing about?




Good, in as far as it goes. There is more than ONE PURPOSE of the Law though. Besides being guardian, it is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteouness (it is a part of ALL SCRIPTURE, no?)

but the writings in the verse above, 2 tim 3;15, talks about faith righteousness and salvation, people never quote the verse before 3;16.

15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Paul is not referencing the Law here, but pagan superstition. Elemetalism is part of most paganism: earth, air, fire, water.
Funny Paul says 'days, months, seasons, and years' but NOT ONCE does he NAME any of God's holy days! He is referring here to days observed by pagans (e.g., Saturnalia, Calends, etc.) This is completely in the vein of the previous verses.

how could it be earth fire water with the elementals, when he just got done saying Jesus was born under law, and paul the jew was under those same elementals..we.in 4:3.? no, it was the law.


gal 4:3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

 

[Frogster]

I agree 100%. So what are we arguing about?




Good, in as far as it goes. There is more than ONE PURPOSE of the Law though. Besides being guardian, it is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteouness (it is a part of ALL SCRIPTURE, no?)



Paul is not referencing the Law here, but pagan superstition. Elemetalism is part of most paganism: earth, air, fire, water.

Funny Paul says 'days, months, seasons, and years' but NOT ONCE does he NAME any of God's holy days! He is referring here to days observed by pagans (e.g., Saturnalia, Calends, etc.) This is completely in the vein of the previous verses.

what calendar would the judaizers get them under in 4;10, these are jewish calendar words.

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!

 

[Steve Petersen]

Here Paul is obviously talking to people who had formerly been pagan.

At a time when you did not know God, you became slaves to things that by nature are not gods; but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again? You are observing days, months, seasons, and years. I am afraid on your account that perhaps I have labored for you in vain.
(Galatians 4:8-11)

 

[Frogster]

Here Paul is obviously talking to people who had formerly been pagan.

Paul was just saying they were this time returning to another religion, they left their ritualistic theophostic religion, only to now get into ritualistic judaism,..why does it say AGAIN here also, were they snipped ever?

yet Paul says again. this confirms the intent of 4;9 and the again word in 4;9, don't return again to another bondage, clearly the law.



5:For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Paul was just saying they were this time returning to another religion, they left their ritualistic theophostic religion, only to now get into judaism,..why does it say AGAIN here also, were they snipped ever?

yet Paul says again. this confirms the intent of 4;9 and the again word in 4;9, don't return again to another bondage, clearly the law.



5:For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

Wrong. 'Turn again' refers to going back to paganism. He does not want them to become enslaved 'again' to those elemental powers. The yoke of slavery is explicit in this passage and refers to the elemetal powers they served when they were 'apart from God' and worshipped 'no-gods' (an idiom for idols, taken from the Torah, Deut. 32:17.)

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree 100%. So what are we arguing about?

Good, in as far as it goes. There is more than ONE PURPOSE of the Law though. Besides being guardian, it is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteouness (it is a part of ALL SCRIPTURE, no?)

Paul is not referencing the Law here, but pagan superstition. Elemetalism is part of most paganism: earth, air, fire, water.

Funny Paul says 'days, months, seasons, and years' but NOT ONCE does he NAME any of God's holy days! He is referring here to days observed by pagans (e.g., Saturnalia, Calends, etc.) This is completely in the vein of the previous verses.

Here Paul is obviously talking to people who had formerly been pagan.

Your line of argument is not convincing; it is not as if Galatians 4:8-11 is in a separate context from Galatians 4:1-7 - in my post the passages are quoted one after the other, just as they appear in the bible.

Haydock's notes say, on Galatians 4:10-11:

Gal 4:10-11 "You observe days and months and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest perhaps I have laboured in vain among you."

Gal 4:10-11 You observe days, &c. These false teachers were for obliging all Christians to observe all the Jewish feasts, fasts, ceremonies, &c. Some of the later reformers find here an occasion to blame the fasts and holydays kept by Catholics. St. Jerome, in his commentary on these words, tells us that some had made the like objection in his time: his answer might reasonably stop their rashness; to wit, that Christians keep indeed the sabbath on Sunday, (not the Jewish sabbath on Saturdays) that they keep also divers holydays, and days on which great saints suffered martyrdom, (let our adversaries take notice of this) but that both the days are different, and the motives of keeping them. See St. Jerome, tom. iv. p. 271. (Witham)

This text cannot mean to condemn the feasts appointed to be kept holy in the Catholic Church. For on the festivals dedicated to our Lord, St. Augustine writeth thus: "We dedicate and consecrate the memory of God's benefits with solemnities on solemn appointed days, lest in process of time they might creep into ungrateful and unkind oblivion." And of the martyrs thus: "Christians people celebrate the memories of martyrs with religious solemnity, both to move themselves to an imitation of their virtues, and that they may be partakers of their merits, and helped by their prayers." (Cont. Faust. lib. xx. chap. 21.) And of other saints thus: "keep ye and celebrate with sobriety the nativities of saints, that we may imitate them that are gone before us, and that they may rejoice in us, who pray for us." (In Ps. .xxxviii. Conc. 2. in fine.)
​

 

[Frogster]

Wrong. 'Turn again' refers to going back to paganism. He does not want them to become enslaved 'again' to those elemental powers. The yoke of slavery is explicit in this passage and refers to the elemetal powers they served when they were 'apart from God' and worshipped 'no-gods' (an idiom for idols, taken from the Torah, Deut. 32:17.)

but the first elementals in 4, was the law paul and jesus were under, that is a fact. So that confrims the definition of the second wordage of elementals in 4;9.

then we have the judaistic pressure, desire to be under law, in 4;21, not paganism. Then we have 5, circumcised, keep the whole law in 5;3, not paganism, confirming again the direction they were headed, and the contents of the whole leter.

then we have you not answering why it says not to return again to bondage AGAIN, in 5;1, and it was the law. Were they ever snipped? yet, why does paul say again in 5;1?, confiming the direction of 4;9 to law.






where they going in 2 different directions, how could that be?