The Apocrypha

[jad123]

I may have kind of missunderstood what you are saying. I was thinking that you may have the views of most Protestants, but maybe not. This question should clear it up.

Can you be a true Christian, and yet not do any works? In other words, denying homeless people help or something like that. Let's say you just claim you believe in Jesus, yet nothing in your life shows it. I am not saying you neccasarily live an immoral life, but are a very cold person. Do you believe you will still be saved?

Well I would hardly call myself a protestant. Short answer to your question. In my opinion NO but I leave that to God.

I believe that faith and works are intertwined and cannot have one without the other. If you have a true faith then what you do on earth will show that. BUT BUT BUT that does not mean that I think you can earn your way into heaven whether that be baptism, good works, or any of the sacraments. You are saved by faith alone but if you are truly saved then why wouldn't your works be good?

 

[jckstraw72]

BUT BUT BUT that does not mean that I think you can earn your way into heaven whether that be baptism, good works, or any of the sacraments. You are saved by faith alone but if you are truly saved then why wouldn't your works be good?

I dont know of any Christians that believe you can work your way into Heaven.

 

[repentant]

Well I would hardly call myself a protestant. Short answer to your question. In my opinion NO but I leave that to God.

I believe that faith and works are intertwined and cannot have one without the other. If you have a true faith then what you do on earth will show that. BUT BUT BUT that does not mean that I think you can earn your way into heaven whether that be baptism, good works, or any of the sacraments. You are saved by faith alone but if you are truly saved then why wouldn't your works be good?

See now you clear it up. Works without faith is nothing, but works with faith is. I believe the same thing. So now I see what you are saying, but I still don't understand why you say we don't need works, if you answered no above.

Also a Protestant is someone who is neither Eastern Orthodox or Catholic but says they are Christian...

 

[Jig]

See now you clear it up. Works without faith is nothing, but works with faith is. I believe the same thing. So now I see what you are saying, but I still don't understand why you say we don't need works, if you answered no above.

Also a Protestant is someone who is neither Eastern Orthodox or Catholic but says they are Christian...

Grace is what saves us. Grace is given if we have faith. With faith we will want to do good works. If not, then are faith is either very weak or not real.

Faith gives us grace.
Faith provides us the grounds to do good works.

Faith saves.
Works show we have it.

 

[BBAS 64]

and yet theres so much disagreement.

Good Day, Jckstraw72

How is that the fault of Scripture??

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[jckstraw72]

How is that the fault of Scripture??

Its not. Its the fault of the Sola Scriptura doctrine.

 

[BBAS 64]

Its not. Its the fault of the Sola Scriptura doctrine.

Good Day, Jckstraw

Then I must say (again) you have a "flawed" view of the Doctrine in question. I have posted the simple view as to help in your understanding.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

*OrthodoxyUSA looks at OP and hangs sing out*

*Off topic alert*


Jckstraw is correct....


Jckstraw is not talking about the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Jckstraw is talking about the fruits of Sola Scriptura.


If, "we" were all of "one mind" on (T)radition as (o)rthodox are.... there would be no arguments.

Forgive me...

 

[jckstraw72]

thank you OrthodoxyUSA...I should have said the fruit of Sola Scriptura. Its like Communism--sounds good on paper, but in real life it doesnt work.

 

[ScottBot]

thank you OrthodoxyUSA...I should have said the fruit of Sola Scriptura. Its like Communism--sounds good on paper, but in real life it doesnt work.

Communism hasn't worked yet because the right people haven't implemented it........

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

I only asked that question because that is what your trying to say, just without saying it.

I only stated the facts. Here is what I said (you can easily verify these facts if you care about the truth):

The Canon was established at the Council of Hippo in 393 A.D. This Canon was confirmed in 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage. This was more than 1100 years before Luther.

Martin Luther, in accord with his posture of supreme self-importance as restorer of Christianity, even presumed, inconsistently, to judge various books of the Bible, God's holy Word. Luther feels himself entirely able and duty-bound -- as a lone individual -- to judge the canonicity and even overall value of Old Testament and New Testament books which had been securely in the canon for over 1100 years.


Are you disputing these facts?


Peace be with you.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I only stated the facts. Here is what I said (you can easily verify these facts if you care about the truth):

The Canon was established at the Council of Hippo in 393 A.D. This Canon was confirmed in 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage. This was more than 1100 years before Luther.

Martin Luther, in accord with his posture of supreme self-importance as restorer of Christianity, even presumed, inconsistently, to judge various books of the Bible, God's holy Word. Luther feels himself entirely able and duty-bound -- as a lone individual -- to judge the canonicity and even overall value of Old Testament and New Testament books which had been securely in the canon for over 1100 years.


Are you disputing these facts?


Peace be with you.

Ooops... Is Luther (Timmy) in trouble again girl? Fell in the well?

Go get him girl... we'll follow...

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Grace is what saves us. Grace is given if we have faith.

No, Grace is the free gift God gives us that enables us to have Faith.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[Jig]

I only stated the facts. Here is what I said (you can easily verify these facts if you care about the truth):

The Canon was established at the Council of Hippo in 393 A.D. This Canon was confirmed in 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage. This was more than 1100 years before Luther.

Martin Luther, in accord with his posture of supreme self-importance as restorer of Christianity, even presumed, inconsistently, to judge various books of the Bible, God's holy Word. Luther feels himself entirely able and duty-bound -- as a lone individual -- to judge the canonicity and even overall value of Old Testament and New Testament books which had been securely in the canon for over 1100 years.


Are you disputing these facts?


Peace be with you.

This doesn't 'prove' your opinion. This might help support it, but in no way does it verify it. We all have are own assumptions. It's my understanding you'd like to think God had nothing to do with the Reformation. Who was behind it then? I already know your answer and it's sad.

So many people have came to Christ 'outside' of the Catholic religion. I highly doubt this was Satan's doing. Why would he want people to believe in Jesus? Why would he want people to repent for thier sins and ask forgivness? I'm sticking to my position, God backed the Reformation!

 

[Jig]

No, Grace is the free gift God gives us that enables us to have Faith.

Your brother in Christ.

I understand that 'grace' is a free gift from God.

Eph. 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

I said we must have faith to recieve it. It's not grace then faith. It's faith then grace.

 

[jckstraw72]

I highly doubt this was Satan's doing. Why would he want people to believe in Jesus? Why would he want people to repent for thier sins and ask forgivness? I'm sticking to my position, God backed the Reformation!

well Satan cant completely stop everyone, but it is much easier to divert them to lesser amounts of the truth.

 

[BBAS 64]

I only stated the facts. Here is what I said (you can easily verify these facts if you care about the truth):

The Canon was established at the Council of Hippo in 393 A.D. This Canon was confirmed in 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage. This was more than 1100 years before Luther.

Martin Luther, in accord with his posture of supreme self-importance as restorer of Christianity, even presumed, inconsistently, to judge various books of the Bible, God's holy Word. Luther feels himself entirely able and duty-bound -- as a lone individual -- to judge the canonicity and even overall value of Old Testament and New Testament books which had been securely in the canon for over 1100 years.


Are you disputing these facts?


Peace be with you.

Good Day, Ignatius

Why are you failing to take into the historical view of the issue in the time in which Luther lived his view was not his alone... To contuine to attribute this view as 'His" alone shows a failure to understand to the issue as a whole in it's context.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Polycarp1]

This doesn't 'prove' your opinion. This might help support it, but in no way does it verify it. We all have are own assumptions. It's my understanding you'd like to think God had nothing to do with the Reformation. Who was behind it then? I already know your answer and it's sad.

So many people have came to Christ 'outside' of the Catholic religion. I highly doubt this was Satan's doing. Why would he want people to believe in Jesus? Why would he want people to repent for thier sins and ask forgivness? I'm sticking to my position, God backed the Reformation!

Wow, is this comment way off base! First, I think that every Catholic would admit that there were some major abuses committed prior to the Reformation, from which Catholicism attempted to cleanse itself in what's called the Counter-Reformation.

Second, "the Catholic religion" is called Christianity. They are one branch of those who believe in Jesus Christ as Son of God, Savior and Lord. They have some amazing claims about their own church, which are not grist for this particular thread. But let's not play the "Christians vs. Catholics" game here!

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Eph. 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

I said we must have faith to recieve it. It's not grace then faith. It's faith then grace.

No, Grace is the free gift God gives us that enables us to have Faith. i.e. We couldn't have Faith without God's grace.



Your brother in Christ.

 

[NealP]

There have always been controversies saying the church cut out certain parts of the Bible because they had it in their mind how religion should be and didn't care if they were guiding it and making it different than God's way.

If it is true they cut out certain parts to avoid embarassment, I don't know...but it has always tickled me!