The Apocrypha

[jckstraw72]

The Book of Wisdom is mad phatty.

 

[ScottBot]

I understand that 'grace' is a free gift from God.

Eph. 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

I said we must have faith to recieve it. It's not grace then faith. It's faith then grace.

If God does not open you up to receive His message, then you can't have faith. Period. The process is this: Grace - Faith - Salvation.

 

[ScottBot]

The Book of Wisdom is mad phatty.

I am partial to the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach. I read from it every day.

 

[PookySmiley]

Actually The Canon used by the Catholic Church was established at the Council of Hippo in 393 A.D. This Canon was confirmed in 397 A.D. at another Church, the Council of Carthage. This was more than 1100 years before Luther.

So the important thing here is that it was decided a long time ago? If the age of a decision made it correct, then the earth really is flat. It was decided a long time ago, so it must be true.

Martin Luther, in accord with his posture of supreme self-importance as restorer of Christianity,

Well, you're wrong in that statement. Martin Luther was a dedicated Catholic Priest who loved the church, believe in the church and was trying to clean up the most egregious of the corruption that was so wide spread in the church then.

even presumed, inconsistently, to judge various books of the Bible, God's holy Word.

Wow, you're wrong again!! Luther was trying to find if there was any biblical source for the evil and corruption he saw around him. He was sure his beloved church would not ever stray so far from the Word of God.

Luther feels himself entirely able and duty-bound -- as a lone individual --

Wrong again. There was a ground swell of resentment against the corruption seen in the catholic church. Luther loved the church enough to try to do something about it.

to judge the canonicity and even overall value of Old Testament and New Testament books which had been securely in the canon for over 1100 years.

Of course God was behind him, God surely was angered at the stealing, bribery, and murder being done in His name by people who had stopped following Him centuries before.

Your brother in Christ. [/QUOTE]

 

[Jig]

If God does not open you up to receive His message, then you can't have faith. Period. The process is this: Grace - Faith - Salvation.

I'm still confused on how this would work...unless of course you subscribe to predestination. Or are you saying there is people with grace and have no faith?

 

[ScottBot]

I'm still confused on how this would work...unless of course you subscribe to predestination. Or are you saying there is people with grace and have no faith?

When God calls you, this is grace. When you answer, this is faith. You can't answer the call unless you receive and invitation first. Now regarding the whole predestination thing, that is its own lengthy and contentious topic.

 

[cristoiglesia]

I'm still confused on how this would work...unless of course you subscribe to predestination. Or are you saying there is people with grace and have no faith?

The Scriptures say that the law is written on everyones heart. We all have a opportunity to respond to that law and surrender to the law. This is the grace from which comes faith.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[BBAS 64]

The Scriptures say that the law is written on everyones heart. We all have a opportunity to respond to that law and surrender to the law. This is the grace from which comes faith.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Good Day, Cristoiglesia

Where does Scripture say "written on everyones heart"

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Jig]

When God calls you, this is grace. When you answer, this is faith. You can't answer the call unless you receive and invitation first. Now regarding the whole predestination thing, that is its own lengthy and contentious topic.

But it is GRACE that saves!

Your saying people recieve 'grace' first before they have faith. In this case, it would be possible for someone to have this saving grace and not have any faith.

 

[ScottBot]

Good Day, Cristoiglesia

Where does Scripture say "written on everyones heart"

Peace to u,

Bill

[bible]Romans 2:14-16[/bible]

 

[BBAS 64]

Romans 2:14-1614 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Good Day, Scott

When the "Gentiles" when did the Gentiles become "every one"?

Which have not the Law, what Law?

Who has the Law that the gentiles have not?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Oooh,

I'll take Jewish history for 1000 Bob!

Forgive me....

 

[ScottBot]

Good Day, Scott

When the "Gentiles" when did the Gentiles become "every one"?

Which have not the Law, what Law?

Who has the Law that the gentiles have not?

Peace to u,

Bill

You know who the Jews are, right? God had to put in stone tablets for them because they had "hearts of stone". He wrote the Law onto the hearts of the Gentiles.

 

[cristoiglesia]

Good Day, Scott
When the "Gentiles" when did the Gentiles become "every one"?

Which have not the Law, what Law?

Who has the Law that the gentiles have not?

Peace to u,

Bill

Greetings Bill,

May the Lord be with you.

(Deu 30:11) This commandment, that I command thee this day is not above thee, nor far off from thee:


(Deu 30:12) Nor is it in heaven, that thou shouldst say: Which of us can go up to heaven to bring it unto us, and we may hear and fulfil it in work?

(Deu 30:13) Nor is it beyond the sea: that thou mayst excuse thyself, and say: Which of us can cross the sea, and bring it unto us: that we may hear, and do that which is commanded?


(Deu 30:14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it.


This is the teaching of Moses where Moses tells the people the importance of the law being upon their hearts and how it is essential for God’s plan for humanity. We rarely see reference to these verses because they speak most profoundly against Calvinist predestination that says only some are predestined to salvation and others are predestined to hell. If the law is written on everyone’s heart by God, then for what purpose, except to provide a pathway to eternity in Christ. I heard a preacher in a small Pentecostal Church in the mountains of Kentucky in a town called Pawpaw say that the law on our hearts was like the Rosetta stone allowing us to understand the things of God, that the law contains the very concept of faith and this grace and this Godliness coexists with our inherent sinfulness until we are washed by the blood of the Lamb with our surrender and become pure of heart within God’s law and consequently within His will. We can not be within God’s will without obedience to this imputed law that along with inherited sin intuitively shows us the need for a Savior, Christ Jesus. This is why we have no excuse for our lack of surrender to God because He is not only evident in His creation but He is a part of our very being upon our creation.


How could one understand God’s demands upon us without this law. How can we understand God’s will for us to live within righteousness and justice if not for this law that abides always in our conscience. We often think of God’s law as something without us but in fact it is eternal within our beings, that calls to intuition the will of God. This is essential for without the law we can not know God.


Now the law on our hearts should not be confused with those external laws of men. The law written on our hearts is the law that makes us understand righteousness, justice, love and reconciliation. The law in our hearts is not the external law that can result in legalism where the letter of the law is followed at the expense of the spirit of the law. There is no other means by which we know His voice when He speaks to our spirit.


(Heb 8:10) For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind: and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.


(Rom 10:6) But the justice which is of faith, speaketh thus: Say not in thy heart: Who shall ascend into heaven? That is to bring Christ down;


(Rom 10:7) Or who shall descend into the deep? That is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.


(Rom 10:8) But what saith the scripture? The word is nigh thee; even in thy mouth and in thy heart. This is the word of faith, which we preach.


(Rom 10:9) For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ, in you the hope of glory.


In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[cristoiglesia]

Good Day, Scott

When the "Gentiles" when did the Gentiles become "every one"?

Which have not the Law, what Law?

Who has the Law that the gentiles have not?

Peace to u,

Bill

I am sorry Bill, in my previous post I failed to answer one of your questions explicitly. As you can see from the various verses both the Gentiles and the Jews are created with the law on their hearts. I pray I answered everything else for you.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph