The Apocrypha

[Jig]

Honoring ones parents? Can you explain this? I thought that this was a commandment at one point.

And did following commandments led to salvation by atoning for sins? No. Your point? The 10 commandments simply let people know they were sinners.

 

[Jig]

So, we have 90% of our beliefs in sync? If so, can you explain the remaining 10% and why those teachings were rejected?

Because they are not scriptual.....like infant baptism and purgatory.

 

[livingproofGM]

Because they are not scriptual.....like infant baptism and purgatory.

That's all that they have rejected, that's the remaining 10%? What about confession? Or the Eucharist? Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death.

 

[DrTheophorus]

Prove that statement.....I think you cant...look at sales...the majority of Bible's being sold dont thave the The Apocrypha or any other added books other then the Reformers 66. So, what are you basing that off of?

I do not know of any Bibles that contain the Apocrapha books. However all Bibles contained the Deuterocanonicals before the Reformers removed them. The early Church did not add any books the Reformers removed books, let us at least use accurate history. The following is according to Wikipedia:

According to Adherents.com [1], Christianity is the world's most widely-practiced religion, with 2.1 billion adherents, including 1.1 billion Roman Catholics, 510 million Protestants in a number of traditions, 216 million Orthodox, 158 million Independents (unaffiliated with the major streams of Christianity), as well as 31.7 million belonging to other groups with less clear status (including Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons).

Let us add it up 1.1 billion Catholics, 216 million Orthodox, at least 5 million independents and 5 million Protestants have the full Canon of Scriptures. Only 558 million have the reduced Canon.

Deus Misereatur

 

[Jig]

That's all that they have rejected, that's the remaining 10%? What about confession? Or the Eucharist? Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death.

Gee...I was just giving a few examples....not everything...notice how I said "like".

But anyway....MAtt. 12:32 does not prove forgivness after death, Jesus was just saying that blasphmey against the Holy Spirit was an eternal sin and could not be forgiven. The next world he speaks of is probably His millennial reign, where blashpmey would also hold no forgivness.

 

[injesuschrist]

we need to stop judging 1 church on this site. peace

 

[Jig]

we need to stop judging 1 church on this site. peace

I dont judge...I try to save those who were LIKE ME. Remember I too was Catholic...it's easier for me to talk about Catholic issues because of this. Please dont hate me simply because I put doubt in your head about your faith in man made doctrines that hold no or VERY little if that biblical ground.

 

[livingproofGM]

I dont judge...I try to save those who were LIKE ME. Remember I too was Catholic...it's easier for me to talk about Catholic issues because of this. Please dont hate me simply because I put doubt in your head about your faith in man made doctrines that hold no or VERY little if that biblical grounds.

You put doubt in no ones head. If anything, we are made smarter by your lack of knowledge of the faith, and the pointless arguments brought up. Man made doctrines? How about Sola Fide, or Sola Scripture, or Sola Gratias? All made by a man, not supported by the Bible.

 

[Jig]

You put doubt in no ones head. If anything, we are made smarter by your lack of knowledge of the faith, and the pointless arguments brought up. Man made doctrines? How about Sola Fide, or Sola Scripture, or Sola Gratias? All made by a man, not supported by the Bible.

Well, thank you for attacking me and basicly saying I'm not as smart as you are.

I have the right to my opinion, even if its against yours.

 

[injesuschrist]

I dont judge...I try to save those who were LIKE ME. Remember I too was Catholic...it's easier for me to talk about Catholic issues because of this. Please dont hate me simply because I put doubt in your head about your faith in man made doctrines that hold no or VERY little if that biblical ground.

Well I came back to my church recently, I do not know who taught you, but it is wrong.. and I think I know what it may be, you see when I was in another faith, people would gossip about Rome and how wrong my first faith was...

my second faith was worse... thank god I came to reality...

gossip - with no love

 

[DrTheophorus]

I dont judge...I try to save those who were LIKE ME. Remember I too was Catholic...it's easier for me to talk about Catholic issues because of this. Please dont hate me simply because I put doubt in your head about your faith in man made doctrines that hold no or VERY little if that biblical grounds.

That is a pretty rude statement to make against another Christian brother, IMO. If you are going to accuse another of following man made doctrines at least give him an example of what you believe is unScriptural. Every antiCatholic professes to be a former Catholic so that is not something that Catholics automatically believe. Usually those same people prove that they really are not former Catholics and have very little knowledge of the Catholic Church that a true former Catholic would have.

Deus Misereatur

 

[Jig]

That is a pretty rude statement to make against another Christian brother, IMO. If you are going to accuse another of following man made doctrines at least give him an example of what you believe is unScriptural.
Deus Misereatur

Sorry if I sounded rude to you. I apologize.

But do you really thibk I have not brought up what I believe to be unscriptural in any of the posts I've made here at christianforums?

 

[DrTheophorus]

Sorry if I sounded rude to you. I apologize.

But do you really thibk I have not brought up what I believe to be unscriptural in any of the posts I've made here at christianforums?

I'm sorry, I have not read all of your posts except for this thread. So far on this thread you have brought up doctrines and beliefs that you disagree with but have been unable to prove that they are unScriptural unless we accept what you say and ignore several books of the Bible. Sorry, but that does not look like a very sound way to come to doctrine. Your theme so far is reject parts of the Bible and you will believe as I. I believe that if we made the same request of you that you would be incredulous.

Deus misereatur

 

[injesuschrist]

QUOTE]

Jig, you are a brother to me, we all are God's kids.. I will not judge anyone elses church.. I guess we see too many posts against our faith, religion and the church. That is where I go and get peace and pray, I do not go in there to jump around, and of course do for the needy in my community.. and I have to defend it, because it saddens me... would not you defend your faith, religion or church? and I would never judge your faith and beliefs. We all Love Christ Jesus.

sorry if I sounded uptight

 

[Jig]

I'm sorry, I have not read all of your posts except for this thread. So far on this thread you have brought up doctrines and beliefs that you disagree with but have been unable to prove that they are unScriptural unless we accept what you say and ignore several books of the Bible. Sorry, but that does not look like a very sound way to come to doctrine. Your theme so far is reject parts of the Bible and you will believe as I. I believe that if we made the same request of you that you would be incredulous.

Deus misereatur

Well, your right. This thread was not made to discuss doctrine, really. It was brought up to discuss the extra books the Catholic NAB Bible has. I simply stated some scripture from those selected books and asked if they went together with what we know as Christians and that which Jesus ONLY atones for sins. Nothing more or less then stating a fact, because it does seem like those books go against Jesus as the only way to obtain salvation from our sins.

 

[Jig]

QUOTE]

Jig, you are a brother to me, we all are God's kids.. I will not judge anyone elses church.. I guess we see too many posts against our faith, religion and the church. That is where I go and get peace and pray, I do not go in there to jump around, and of course do for the needy in my community.. and I have to defend it, because it saddens me... would not you defend your faith, religion or church? and I would never judge your faith and beliefs. We all Love Christ Jesus.

sorry if I sounded uptight

It's cool....I get a little excited when someone disagrees with me. Mostly because I believe greatly in what I see as false teaching. I'm very sorry, if I upset you. I guess we really wont know who's right or wrong intill we die. As long as we hold Jesus in our hearts, we'll be alright. God will direct us towards the truth.

 

[Axion]

Prove that statement.....I think you cant...look at sales...the majority of Bible's being sold dont thave the The Apocrypha or any other added books other then the Reformers 66. So, what are you basing that off of?

What you find in a US bookshop has nothing to do with the matter. You will find the KJV, RSV, NAB, NJB, CCB, DRV and many other versions with the complete text.

The FULL, 73 Book bible was defined at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in 397 AD. It was the only bible in existence until Luther in the 1520s decided to try to remove seven books from his bible translation. Even he didn't dare take them out completely. The seven books only completely disappeared from most protestant Bibles in the 1800s.

all I'm saying is the Apocrypha books that are in the Catholic Bible are not inspiried as believed by Catholics BECAUSE some of it's books go against the teaching of Jesus. Like the atonement of sins for almsgiving and honoring ones parents. Please understand, that just because you werent taught this at church, that doesnt mean Catholics dont believe this.

Your bible contains Matthew doesn't it? Well if you read Chapter 25, you might discover that Jesus did not teach what you seem to have been told he taught...

Matthew 25: 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Jig]

What you find in a US bookshop has nothing to do with the matter. You will find the KJV, RSV, NAB, NJB, CCB, DRV and many other versions with the complete text.

The FULL, 73 Book bible was defined at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in 397 AD. It was the only bible in existence until Luther in the 1520s decided to try to remove seven books from his bible translation. Even he didn't dare take them out completely. The seven books only completely disappeared from most protestant Bibles in the 1800s.


Your bible contains Matthew doesn't it? Well if you read Chapter 25, you might discover that Jesus did not teach what you seem to have been told he taught...

Matthew 25: 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

That still does not atone for sins. You have to have faith and belief in Chirst for that. Just because you helped an old lady across the street, doesn't mean you will go to Heaven. Even if that old lady was Jesus.

 

[NPH]

I've always been interested in The Apocrypha because I could never find ONE SINGLE shred of evidence that they should be in the Bible. (I was once Catholic...and read a NAB). I converted to be non-denomintional for the simple fact that Catholics believe that ALL their doctrines are infallible. This means if I could prove just ONE of those doctrines to be false, then the whole Catholic faith is in error with what it believes, because to be Catholic you must believe in ALL the doctrines of the church.

I assume that what you mean by Apocrypha is actually the deuterocanonical books (not such as the Gospel of Thomas). DrTheo seems to have addressed this already.

But anyway, Reasons a don't trust The Apocrypha:

I believe they have doctrinal contradiction and tell of ways to atone for sin other then from Jesus only. Such as by works to gain salvation.

Example quotes from some of these false leading books:

Tobit 12:8 says, "It is better to give alms than to store up gold; for almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin"

Sirach 3:29 says, "Alms atone for sins."

Sirach 3:3, 30
3 "Those who honor their father atone for sins,"
30 "As water extinguishes a blazing fire, so almsgiving atones for sin."

"Atone" is the same as "expiate" which means to purify or make amends for.
"Alms" is the charitable donation of money.

Hmmm...faith in Jesus is the ONLY way to atone for sins! PERIOD! It says so in the NT. And please don't bring up 1 Peter 4:8...it says love covers sin...not atone for it. This is what sacrafice did in the OT...cover sins...not atone.


It's Jesus Blood that expiates sin from are souls! Not good works or honoring our parents!

You do realize that both Tobit and Sirach are Old Testament books? Of course they don't talk about Jesus atonement since he hadn't even been born when they were written! The people these books were being written to still lived under the old Law.

It's funny how Jesus loved quoting OT writing, but never once mentions one of these added books. Were these books not good enough for him to quote? The only reason Catholics keep these books is because without them they cant prove all their doctrines...like purgatory. Which is talked about in II Maccabees 12:44-45 in regards to praying for the dead! When you die you don't get a second chance...your either going to Heaven or Hell....even if the whole world prays that you should go somewhere else.

As was mentioned already, we would also have to remove the eight other OT books which are not quoted in the NT if this is the basis we use to determine the OT canon. Since we all obviously do not use this as the basis for a canonical decision then the point is moot.

The story of the woman in Hebrews 11:35 is told in 2 Maccabees 7 and no where else in the Bible.

Matthew 6:14
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:"


Sirach 28:2
"Forgive your neighbor's injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven."

That's just one to get you started on finding where the deuterocanons are indeed quoted in the NT. One that I really like just because it seems a bit ironic is this bit about table manners:

Sirach 31:14
"Toward what he eyes, do not put out a hand; nor reach when he does for the same dish."

Matthew 26:23.
"And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me."

Ouch, seems like Judas should have paid more attention to Sirach

Plus, the canon of the Palestinian Jews did not include the seven books affirmed by Rome and rejected by Protestantism. So we should reject them unless a good reason is given to affirm them!

Always one of the weirdest arguments I hear. The Jews also reject the entire NT and Jesus himself, should we go along with them on that also? Of course not. It seems very silly to me to say that because they rejected Jesus, the NT and the deuterocanonicals we should reject the deuterocanonicals only.

 

[NPH]

The FULL, 73 Book bible was defined at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in 397 AD. It was the only bible in existence until Luther in the 1520s decided to try to remove seven books from his bible translation. Even he didn't dare take them out completely. The seven books only completely disappeared from most protestant Bibles in the 1800s.

And as we know, these were not the only books he wished to remove. He also wanted to remove James, Hebrews, Revelations and others