The Apocrypha

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Jig

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I've always been interested in The Apocrypha because I could never find ONE SINGLE shred of evidence that they should be in the Bible. (I was once Catholic...and read a NAB). I converted to be non-denomintional for the simple fact that Catholics believe that ALL their doctrines are infallible. This means if I could prove just ONE of those doctrines to be false, then the whole Catholic faith is in error with what it believes, because to be Catholic you must believe in ALL the doctrines of the church.


But anyway, Reasons a don't trust The Apocrypha:

I believe they have doctrinal contradiction and tell of ways to atone for sin other then from Jesus only. Such as by works to gain salvation.

Example quotes from some of these false leading books:

Tobit 12:8 says, "It is better to give alms than to store up gold; for almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin"

Sirach 3:29 says, "Alms atone for sins."

Sirach 3:3, 30
3 "Those who honor their father atone for sins,"
30 "As water extinguishes a blazing fire, so almsgiving atones for sin."


"Atone" is the same as "expiate" which means to purify or make amends for.
"Alms" is the charitable donation of money.

Hmmm...faith in Jesus is the ONLY way to atone for sins! PERIOD! It says so in the NT. And please don't bring up 1 Peter 4:8...it says love covers sin...not atone for it. This is what sacrafice did in the OT...cover sins...not atone.


It's Jesus Blood that expiates sin from are souls! Not good works or honoring our parents!

It's funny how Jesus loved quoting OT writing, but never once mentions one of these added books. Were these books not good enough for him to quote? The only reason Catholics keep these books is because without them they cant prove all their doctrines...like purgatory. Which is talked about in II Maccabees 12:44-45 in regards to praying for the dead! When you die you don't get a second chance...your either going to Heaven or Hell....even if the whole world prays that you should go somewhere else.

Plus, the canon of the Palestinian Jews did not include the seven books affirmed by Rome and rejected by Protestantism. So we should reject them unless a good reason is given to affirm them!

 

injesuschrist

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so almsgiving atones for sin."


Say you are correct, because you seem to know more about God then my church does --- Does anyone here go to church anywhere and give money wrong?

and NO my church does not do this to atone for sins? I have never seen or heard this, in fact my Priest does ceremonies sometimes for free for the poor. This Christmas we are donating food, presents and items for the poor, is this wrong?

edited last words was for another. sorry
 
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Jig

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injesuschrist said:
so almsgiving atones for sin."


Say you are correct, because you seem to know more about God then my church does --- Does anyone here go to church anywhere and give money wrong?

and NO my church does not do this to atone for sins? I have never seen or heard this, in fact my Priest does ceremonies sometimes for free for the poor. This Christmas we are donating food, presents and items for the poor, is this wrong?

I see you are Catholic. So you think the Catholics dont teach this? It's in their Bible...the New American Standard! The Apocrypha isnt in my Bible or anyone besides the Catholics! The Cathoics (yes, including your church)are the one's that say the Apocrypha is inspired....thus, they believe its God's word...and thus believe it to be true....


Edit: Giving money is ok...it just doesnt atone for sins.
 
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injesuschrist

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Jig said:
I see you are Catholic. So you think the Catholics dont teach this? It's in their Bible...the New American Standard! The Apocrypha isnt in my Bible or anyone besides the Catholics! The Cathoics (yes, including your church)are the one's that say the Apocrypha is inspired....thus, they believe its God's word...and thus believe it to be true....

No I have my Bible here, NAS , KJV and that is not in there. I never had to give anything for my sins, I help out at my church because I want to not because I am told to.

peace
 
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Jig

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injesuschrist said:
No I have my Bible here, NAS , KJV and that is not in there. I never had to give anything for my sins, I help out at my church because I want to not because I am told to.

peace

Of course its not in the KJV...its in the Catholic aproved bible your NAS...if your saying its not in there...here you go a catholic link:

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach3.htm read 3:29....and 3:3
 
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DrTheophorus

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Jig said:
I've always been interested in The Apocrypha because I could never find ONE SINGLE shred of evidence that they should be in the Bible. (I was once Catholic...and read a NAB). I converted to be non-denomintional for the simple fact that Catholics believe that ALL their doctrines are infallible. This means if I could prove just ONE of those doctrines to be false, then the whole Catholic faith is in error with what it believes, because to be Catholic you must believe in ALL the doctrines of the church.

It sounds as if you are using incorrect terminology and are arguing against the Deuterocanonicals rather than apocraphal books such as the Gospel of Thomas and other non Christian writings. The Deuterocanonicals are the original OT books of the Christian Canon which were removed by the 16th century Reformers or, at least, called non-Canonical depending about whom you are speaking.

Jig said:
But anyway, Reasons a don't trust The Apocrypha:

I believe they have doctrinal contradiction and tell of ways to atone for sin other then from Jesus only. Such as by works to gain salvation.

Example quotes from some of these false leading books:

Tobit 12:8 says, "It is better to give alms than to store up gold; for almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin"

Sirach 3:29 says, "Alms atone for sins."

Sirach 3:3, 30
3 "Those who honor their father atone for sins,"
30 "As water extinguishes a blazing fire, so almsgiving atones for sin."


"Atone" is the same as "expiate" which means to purify or make amends for.
"Alms" is the charitable donation of money.

Hmmm...faith in Jesus is the ONLY way to atone for sins! PERIOD! It says so in the NT. And please don't bring up 1 Peter 4:8...it says love covers sin...not atone for it. This is what sacrafice did in the OT...cover sins...not atone.


It's Jesus Blood that expiates sin from are souls! Not good works or honoring our parents!

It seems as if you are saying that if you do not believe in certain teachings in the Bible that you can either remove them or ignore their teaching. I personally do not believe that the Bible is to be used in this way but should instead be honored by understanding that it contains only truth. If I was to accept as you seem to have done, that some of the Bible is not inspired or is not the Word of God then by what measure can we trust that which we have decided to believe. What one person decides to trust another may reject and the whole Word of God is reduced to a guide book on creating your own religion where a person simply selects or rejects what they want to believe. Seems like a very dangerous approach to me.

Jig said:
It's funny how Jesus loved quoting OT writing, but never once mentions one of these added books. Were these books not good enough for him to quote? The only reason Catholics keep these books is because without them they cant prove all their doctrines...like purgatory. Which is talked about in II Maccabees 12:44-45 in regards to praying for the dead! When you die you don't get a second chance...your either going to Heaven or Hell....even if the whole world prays that you should go somewhere else.

There is a great deal of Scripture that Jesus never quoted, we should not use that as a standard for deciding what is Canon or not. Frankly we should not be having this decision at all since that issue was decided early in the fifth century and the Deuterocanonicals were included. I can empathize with you that you do not like certain doctrines that the Bible suggests but it either is the Word of God or it is not. I certainly don't believe that it is a menu to choose what you want to believe or what you don't. Christianity in my view is kind of a package deal. You have to accept it all or none of it. I can not be as sure as you seem to be that the Bible is wrong on certain teachings like those you question in II Maccabees.

Jig said:
Plus, the canon of the Palestinian Jews did not include the seven books affirmed by Rome and rejected by Protestantism. So we should reject them unless a good reason is given to affirm them!

Well no, there were several Canons in use by Palistenian Jews, at least four different ones. From the beginning the Christians accepted the Greek Canon which contained the Deuterocanonicals. The Canon used by many, in particular the Anabaptists, was the Canon used by the Pharisees and never used by Christians until after the Reformation. This Pharisaic Canon is the same Canon used by the Sanhedrin who murdered Jesus and hardly has any validity within the Christian faith as Christians are not bound by the Canonical choices of the Pharisees. I am going to give you a good reason to affirm the Deuterocanonicals, all of the apostles accepted them as Canon as well as the whole Church for fifteen hundred years. You can not get a better reason than that.

Deus Misereatur
 
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DrTheophorus

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Jig said:
I see you are Catholic. So you think the Catholics dont teach this? It's in their Bible...the New American Standard! The Apocrypha isnt in my Bible or anyone besides the Catholics! The Cathoics (yes, including your church)are the one's that say the Apocrypha is inspired....thus, they believe its God's word...and thus believe it to be true....


Edit: Giving money is ok...it just doesnt atone for sins.

The Deuterocanonicals are in a lot of Bibles besides the Catholic versions. The original AKJV contained the Deuterocanonicals. The majority of Christians use the complete Bible and not the shortened version of the Reformers.

Deus Misereatur
 
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Jig

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Quick question DrTheophorus....do you believe the Apocrypha is inspired?

Do you believe what it has to say...is true?

In that case you'd believe there are people in this would who can atone for there sins by simply obeying there parents and giving money to charity.
 
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injesuschrist

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Jig

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injesuschrist said:
No it is not, I have 2 Bibles... and Catholics have many different Bibles as you will below, my bible has none of what you stated above... sorry

http://www.bibles.com/product_list.asp?CatalogName=ABS%5FNEW&CategoryName=Catholic&crumb=Catholic%7C&Page=1

Ok....how about this idea. The link above is indeed Catholic. IT as a true reading from the NAS...which is only used by Catholics. I used to be Catholic myself...my bible had this...and I bet your priests bible has this....just because yours does not have it for some strange reason....does not mean it is not accepted by Catholics as a whole....I've done my research and talked to other Catholics....

Edit: What does your say? Does it even have to Apocrypha books in it?
 
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injesuschrist

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Jig said:
Ok....how about this idea. The link above is indeed Catholic. IT as a true reading from the NAS...which is only used by Catholics. I used to be Catholic myself...my bible had this...and I bet your priests bible has this....just because yours does not have it for some strange reason....does not mean it is not accepted by Catholics as a whole....I've done my research and talked to other Catholics....

Edit: What does your say? Does it even have to Apocrypha books in it?

No, in all Honesty I do not have that bible.. I have American Standard which I do not read, I like KJV.

I also purchased on Ebay an old KJV 1966 huge book with pics as a collector
 
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DrTheophorus

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Jig said:
Quick question DrTheophorus....do you believe the Apocrypha is inspired?

Do you believe what it has to say...is true?

In that case you'd believe there are people in this would who can atone for there sins by simply obeying there parents and giving money to charity.

Of course they are inspired, of that there can be no question. As I said before that was settled in several African Synods in the late forth and early fifth century.

I believe everything the Scriptures teach, where else would I go for truth.

Deus Misereatur
 
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Jig

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injesuschrist said:
No, in all Honesty I do not have that bible.. I have American Standard which I do not read, I like KJV.

I also purchased on Ebay an old KJV 1966 huge book with pics as a collector

OH...this makes much sense. You have the American Standard...not the Catholic New American Bible....(notice how theres no Standard)....they are two different translations. Yours will not have the Apocrypha...which are added to the NAB, and is used as the official Catholic Bible.
 
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Jig

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DrTheophorus said:
. The majority of Christians use the complete Bible and not the shortened version of the Reformers.

Deus Misereatur

Prove that statement.....I think you cant...look at sales...the majority of Bible's being sold dont thave the The Apocrypha or any other added books other then the Reformers 66. So, what are you basing that off of?
 
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injesuschrist

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In all honesty I never was taught this for atonement. We help a lot of people in need and we do not do it to have them come to our church.. we do this out of love.. and this is done continually - there are people without food, we have a pantry for picking up needs. I could go on and on...

peace
 
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Jig said:
Prove that statement.....I think you cant...look at sales...the majority of Bible's being sold dont thave the The Apocrypha or any other added books other then the Reformers 66. So, what are you basing that off of?
The Apocrapha was rejected by the protestant Reformers, but so were ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church. Look at how far they strayed? If we defend these books, you will reject every other teaching of our faith, just as they did.
 
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Jig

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injesuschrist said:
In all honesty I never was taught this for atonement. We help a lot of people in need and we do not do it to have them come to our church.. we do this out of love.. and this is done continually - there are people without food, we have a pantry for picking up needs. I could go on and on...

peace

How is this going against what I said? Yes, ALL churches do this...all I'm saying is the Apocrypha books that are in the Catholic Bible are not inspiried as believed by Catholics BECAUSE some of it's books go against the teaching of Jesus. Like the atonement of sins for almsgiving and honoring ones parents. Please understand, that just because you werent taught this at church, that doesnt mean Catholics dont believe this.
 
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livingproofGM

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Jig said:
How is this going against what I said? Yes, ALL churches do this...all I'm saying is the Apocrypha books that are in the Catholic Bible are not inspiried as believed by Catholics BECAUSE some of it's books go against the teaching of Jesus. Like the atonement of sins for almsgiving and honoring ones parents. Please understand, that just because you werent taught this at church, that doesnt mean Catholics dont believe this.
Honoring ones parents? Can you explain this? I thought that this was a commandment at one point.
 
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Jig

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livingproofGM said:
The Apocrapha was rejected by the protestant Reformers, but so were ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church. Look at how far they strayed? If we defend these books, you will reject every other teaching of our faith, just as they did.

What? 90% of what the Catholics believe the reformers believed.
 
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