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Featured the apocalypse

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by victorinus, Aug 16, 2016.

  1. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    understanding john
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    to summarize
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    john the baptist wrote the first apoaclypse
    -he was preparing the way for the Lamb
    -the time was near
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    john the apostle wrote the second apocalypse
    -he added Jesus, antipas, and the churches
    -he was dealing with followers of john the baptist who did not accept Jesus
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    john chrysostom wrote the third one
    -he added something that would convince jerome john the apostle wrote it
    -he was in ephesus at a critical time
    -he was one of the big players
     
  2. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    understanding the numbers
    -
    when is a number a literal number?
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    for example
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    2 beasts
    2 witnesses
    4 horsemen
    7 heads
    7 hills
    7 churches
    10 horns
    1000 years
    -
    these are real numbers
    -but-
    many would have them symbolic
    -especially 1000 and 7
    7 can be both literal and symbolic
    -not so much with 1000
    -it has a beginning and an end
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    For amillennialism mistakenly claims that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:4-6 cannot be literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion, like in Psalms 50:10. But in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-7).

    Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' second coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will not happen until the second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full thousand years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and he will not be bound until Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

    That's right.

    For someone might ask "Isn't there no other passage besides Revelation 20:2-7 which refers to the 'thousand years'?"

    The answer is that there does not have to be any other, just as, for example, there does not have to be any other passage than Acts 6:5 which refers to the seven deacons.
     
  4. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Correct however if you look a little deeper there are many other places that allude to the 1000 year reign:

    In John’s Gospel it lists six days in row but also calls day six the third day, whether by divine inspiration or intentional literary device, by naming day six as the third day when a wedding took place, this reveals a prophetic message that is alluded to throughout the Bible, where days, weeks, months, and years are interchanged to help explain Biblical prophecy. Such as where it equates a day to a thousand years, as mentioned in the first ever Psalm written by Moses:

    Psalm 90:4
    A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

    And also repeated by Peter:

    2 Peter 3:8
    But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the LORD a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

    John’s Gospel states that on the third day a wedding took place, this use of three days are also used elsewhere in the Bible:

    Luke 13:32
    And he said unto them, “Go ye and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out demons, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected”.

    And . . .

    Hosea 6:2
    After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.
    Also . . .

    Exodus 19:10-19
    10 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight
    of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death. 13 They are to be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on them. No person or animal shall be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain.” 14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.” 16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

    This allusion to the third day points to when Jesus will have His Wedding Feast with His Bride the Church at the beginning of the third millennium from Christ’s First Coming, this will then usher in Jesus’ Millennial Reign that’s mentioned in
    Revelation:

    Revelation 20:4
    I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    After all Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath:

    Matthew 12:8
    “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

    This verse is also in reference to the thousand year reign of Christ, which is the prophetic thousand year Sabbath ‘day’,
    which has been God’s plan from the beginning, as these verses also allude to:

    Genesis 2:17
    “but of the tree of the knowledge of good, and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    Adam died a spiritual death the day he ate the fruit, but he also died a physical death after 930 years, which was within 1000 years, a prophetic day. However, God also possibly hints at when the curse would be lifted:

    Genesis 6:3
    Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred, and twenty years.”

    From then on a person’s life was limited to approximately 120 years, but this was not exact for everyone of course, and it is also ambiguous as to whether this was God’s prediction of when the flood would come, so God may have been giving us a hint that His 120 ‘years’ could instead be considered as 120 Jubilees, till the end of the age, when the curse will be lifted. Indeed, the Bible dates the age of the Earth to nearly 6,000 years old. Adding the millennial reign to this reveals the 7,000 year prophetic time frame, with six ‘days’ of labour and a millennial ‘Sabbath’ rest. This idea is also revealed in Jewish tradition, which teaches about the ‘Day of the awakening’ which will take place after 6,000 years, indeed the Jews date the earth to just less than 6,000 years old as well, just as the Biblical genealogies and historical records show.

    Therefore, 120 Jubilees of 50 years each = 6,000 years. This means that Jesus may have come in the 80th Jubilee year, the 4,000th year from creation and will come again at the 120th Jubilee, the 6,000th year, on the Great and terrible day of the LORD, the day of vengeance:

    Isaiah 63:4
    For the day of vengeance is in my heart, And the year of my redeemed hath come.

    The year of His redeemed was Jesus’ one year ministry (this is another teaching I can tell you about). Jesus was raised to life on the third day, and so shall we who are in Him be raised to life in the third millennium from His first coming. This time frame is also alluded to in the week of creation, where after six days of work God rested, and so shall there be a 1,000 year Sabbath rest, after 6,000 years of striving by mankind. There are many allusions throughout the Bible to this six thousand year process, for example when Jacob took care of Laban’s sheep and goats for six years, and through a process of breeding, and epigenetics, which is a process that can change an animal’s DNA functioning, through diet, in order to change its physical appearance in this case. Jacob thus managed to double cross Laban, and set the healthy flocks free in the seventh year. Another time this prophetic day terminology is used is in these verses:

    John 4:35-41
    35 Don’t you have a saying, ‘It’s still four months until harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36 Even now the one who reaps draws a wage and harvests a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37 Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. 38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labour.” 39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

    Samaritans were seen as worse than Gentiles and treated as such. Jesus reveals that just as He was with the Samaritans for two days, He will be with the Gentiles for two thousand years which is what has happened during what has been called the Church age or the times of the Gentiles. However, this will come to an end when there will be the harvest of mankind at the end of the age. The six thousand years, if equated to twelve months, would mean that four months equates to two thousand years, just as Jesus said; “It’s still four months until harvest!”

    Seven times the Bible instructs us that there are six days for work and on the Seventh we rest: Exodus 20:9, 23:12, 31:15, 34:21, 35:2, Leviticus 23:3, and Deuteronomy 5:12-13, and every week of our lives we are reminded of this Biblical prophetic plan God has for mankind.
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

    Also, note that there is no such thing as (what some people call) "the Gentile church". For the church includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Also, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the second half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.
     
  6. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    I am thinking about starting a new thread like this one but with the "Historicist Only" label.
    -
    any comments?
     
  7. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    I now have a blog with my views on the apocalypse
    SEE MY PROFILE PAGE FOR A LINK TO MY BLOG.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  8. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes, that's true, but difficult on this forum.
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Of course another city fits, for God was talking about Jerusalem
     
  11. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    what about trade?
    what about many waters?
    how can it be considered a mystery?
    has it fallen?
    has it fallen?
    it can still be found
     
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that while the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem (as of all other cities) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem. For Jerusalem just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Jerusalem the only institution which buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen mankind throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11) and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

    --

    In Revelation 11:8 and Revelation 16:19a the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus Christ was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10 the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18 and Revelation 18:10-21 the great city is the symbolic whore/city of Babylon. When it's destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Hi victorinus,

    If you are taking that the woman herself is Mystery, Babylon the Great, those could be difficult questions.

    Differently, the woman could be the personification of the Babylon the Great.

    imo, Babylon the Great is the principality, the unseen kingdom of Satan and his angels, who's principality is in high places, the Cosmos, the second heaven.

    I don't see any reason for the ten kings who give their kingdom to the beast - to burn Constantinople. I do see it, imo, if those ten kings are European, and them seeing the Vatican, associated with Christianity, as an impediment to the beast's agenda of everyone worshiping him.
     
  14. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    babylon is a city, not a beast -
    constantinople was destroyed by the tenth dynasty of islam -
    and it can be found no more at all
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I hope I did not give the impression that Mystery, Babylon the Great was a beast. Do you think the Heavenly Jerusalem is historic, no longer exists?

    What about Mystery, Babylon the Great being an antithesis city opposite the Heavenly Jerusalem?
     
  16. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    do you mean new jerusalem?
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Yes. I would also look at Hebrews 11:8-16.
     
  18. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    well I believe rome is new jerusalem
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What is your reasoning?
     
  20. victorinus

    victorinus catholic

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    when constantinople replaced rome as the capital of the roman empire it was referred to as new rome -
    christianity replaced the jewish religion -
    jerusalem was the center of the jewish religion -
    rome is the center of christianity -
    rome has a river running through it -
    rome has three gates in each direction -
    in rev 12:6, the woman, the church flees into the wilderness for protection -
    it would not have survived in jerusalem -
    please note how well the orthodox fared in constantinople -
    new jerusalem
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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