the apocalypse

[victorinus]

the apocalypse
-
666 -
babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine - from the white sea (mediterranean)
rider of the red horse - mohammed - from the red sea
rider of the black horse - marx - from the black sea
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
-
the timeline of the apocalypse
-
daniel
-
it's a puzzle
-
this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

 

[victorinus]

the church has no official view of the apocalypse -
what is presented here are my views -
they are not shared by the church
-
back to the apocalypse

 

[victorinus]

the thousand years - the byzantine empire
-
this is where you start because there is one empire that lasted one thousand years and it was a chrisitan empire where they reigned with Christ -
Jesus assured us that He will be with any two or three gathered in His name so if they are reigning, they are reigning with Him -
the only remaining question is -
does it fit with the rest of the apocalypse? -
we will see that it does

 

[victorinus]

babylon the great - constantinople
-
no other city has all these characteristics
-mystery
-many waters
-trade
-seven hills
-is fallen, is fallen
-found no more

back to the apocalypse

 

[victorinus]

constantinople has it all
-
thousand years -
the rider of the white horse -
two beasts -
seven heads -
the rider of the red horse -
ten horns -
the year 666 -
the rider of the black horse
-
they are all pieces of the puzzle and they fit

 

[victorinus]

Revelation 17:8 (KJV)
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


the rider of white horse started the thousand years and mortally wounded the first beast which was replaced by the second beast started by the rider of the red horse -
the rider of the black horse started an empire which would end the empire of the second beast but the second beast, like no other, is still with us

 

[Straightshot]

Good luck with your post on this forum .... if any answer

Not to offend you, but much correction would have to be applied to your view in my opinion

 

[victorinus]

Good luck with your post on this forum .... if any answer

Not to offend you, but much correction would have to be applied to your view in my opinion

are you an historicist?

 

[victorinus]

books used in my research
-
Angold, Michael ”Byzantium” St. Martin's Press
Armstrong, Karen ”Islam - A Short History” Modern Library
Aune, David ”Revelation”
Baur, Chrysostomus ”John Chrysostom and His Time”
Beale, G ”The Book of Revelation”
Beckwith, ”Apocalyse of John”
Butler, Daniel ”The First Jihad” Casemate Publishers
Byron, Robert ”The Byzantine Achievement”
Capponi, Niccolo "Victory of The West" Da Capo Press
Charles, R ”Studies in the Apocalypse” Wipf and Stock Publishers
Durant, Will ”Caesar and Christ” MJF Books
Emmerson, Richard ”The Apocalypse in the Middle Ages” Cornell
Esposito, John ”The Oxford History of Islam” Oxford University Press
Finkel, Caroline ”Osman's Dream” Perseus Books Group
Ford, Josephine ”Revelation”
Freely, John ”Istanbul - The Imperial City” Viking - Penguin Books USA
Fregosi, Paul ”Jihad in the West” Prometheus Books
Gibbon, Edward ”The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”
Glubb, John ”A Short History of the Arab Peoples” Dorset Press
Grant, Michael ”The Roman Emperors” Barnes & Noble
Gregg, Steve ”Revelation - Four Views” Thomas Nelson Publishers
Gwynn, John ”The Apocalypse of St. John” APA - Philo Press Amsterdam
Haldon, J ”Byzantium in the Seventh Century”
Harris, Jonathan "Constantinople: Capital of Byzantium" Hambledon Continuum
Haussig, H ”A History of Byzantine Civilization”
Herrin, Judith ”Byzantium” Princeton University Press
Holland, Tom "In the Shadow of the Sword" Doubleday
Hopkins, T. C. F. ”Empires, Wars, and Battles” Tom Doherty Associates
Kaegi, Walter ”Army, Society and Religion in Byzantium”
Kaegi, Walter ”Byzantium and the early Islam conquests” Cambridge
Krey, Philip ”Nicholas of Lyra's Apocalypse Commentary”
Lecky, William ”History of European Morals”
Lewis, Bernard ”The Crisis of Islam” Modern Library
Lewis, David Levering "God's Crucible" W W Norton
Maier, Paul ”Eusebius - The Church History” Kregel Publications
Mango, Cyril ”The Oxford History of Byzantium” Oxford University Press
Mazower, Mark "The Balkans - A Short History" Modern Library
Miceli, Vincent ”The Antichrist” Roman Catholic Books
Norwich, John ”Byzantium - The Early Centuries” Alfred A. Knopf
Norwich, John “Byzantium - A Short History of - Alfred A. Knopf
O'Shea, Stephen ”Sea of Faith” Walker and Company
Ostrogorsky, George ”History of the Byzantine State” Rutgers Univ Press
Pagden, Anthony ”Worlds at War” Random House
Palmer, Andrew ”The Seventh Century in the West-Syrian Chronicles”
Payne, Robert ”The History of Islam” Dorset Press
Pipes, Daniel ”Militant Islam Reaches America” W. W. Norton & Company
Regan, Geoffrey ”First Crusader - Byzantium's Holy Wars”
Reston, James "Defenders of the Faith"
Ross, Daveed ”My Year Inside Radical Islam” Penguin
Schatkin, Margaret ”Saint John Chrysostom - Apologist”
Thompson, Leonard ”The Book of Revelation” Oxford University Press
Treadgold, Warren ”A History of the Byzantine State and Society”
Weinrich, Willliam ”Revelation, Ancient Christian Commentary”
Wells, Colin "Sailing from Byzantium" Delacorte Press
Worth, Roland ”The Seven Cities of the Apocalypse and Greco-Asian”

 

[victorinus]

the ten islamic dynasties
-
the ten horns
-
back to the apocalypse

 

[Straightshot]

Yes

10 divisions of the Middle Eastern Muslim region will eventually be confederated by the coming Muslim Caliph .... the other little horn [the 11th] of Daniel's visions [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 11:36-45; 12:7]

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 17:8 (KJV)
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


the rider of white horse started the thousand years and mortally wounded the first beast which was replaced by the second beast started by the rider of the red horse -
the rider of the black horse started an empire which would end the empire of the second beast but the second beast, like no other, is still with us

victorinius, you have to get a handle on the crowns and no crowns on the beast in Revelation 12, 13, 17. Not just that they are different - but WHY are they different in each of those three chapters. Why do you suppose that is?

Revelation 17
heads - no crowns
horns - no crowns

Revelation 12
heads - crowns
horns - no crowns

Revelation 13
heads - no crows
horns- crowns

Revelation 17:8 can best be analyzed by dividing it into 8a and 8b

8a The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; (this is the status of the beast at the time of John, Revelation 17, 1st century).

8b and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Straightshot]

"are you an historicist?"


I am not in the sense that you speak of

A portion of Bible prophecy has been fulfilled in the past with 100% accuracy

The balance is yet to come

Fulfilled prophecy consummated at the Lord's cutting off in the first century

The balance to come is still pending and out in front of us

The prophets are all silent with regard for the last 2000 years and none of the events of this period of histoey are a part of the scope of Bible prophecy

 

[victorinus]

the seven heads
-
the seven dynasties of the roman empire

Julio-Claudian dynasty 68
Flavian dynasty 96
Nerva–Antonine dynasty 192
Severan dynasty 235
Constantinian dynasty 361
Valentinian Dynasty 455
House of Leo 476

 

[Douggg]

books used in my research
Grant, Michael ”The Roman Emperors” Barnes & Noble

Go here:http://www.roman-emperors.org/impindex.htm

Look up Nero. It says in the text, that he was the last of the Julio-Claudian family emperors. He is the king, ruling at the time of John in Revelation 17. The other five are Caesars. The little horn will be a descendant of the Casesars.

The first five "emperors" were of the Julio-claudian family. They start with Augustus Caesar, because techincally Julius Caesar was not considered an emperor - but dictator for life. As far as bible prophecy though Julius Caesar was a king of the Roman Empire, of the Caesar Family.

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius

6. Nero

7. Little horn, the 7th yet to come, continues a short space after being killed and brought back to life as the beast.

 

[Douggg]

the seven heads
-
the seven dynasties of the roman empire

Julio-Claudian dynasty 68
Flavian dynasty 96
Nerva–Antonine dynasty 192
Severan dynasty 235
Constantinian dynasty 361
Valentinian Dynasty 455
House of Leo 476

Sorry, doesn't work. Five had already fallen at the time of John, 1st century.

 

[victorinus]

victorinius, you have to get a handle on the crowns and no crowns on the beast in Revelation 12, 13, 17. Not just that they are different - but WHY are they different in each of those three chapters. Why do you suppose that is?

Revelation 17
heads - no crowns
horns - no crowns

Revelation 12
heads - crowns
horns - no crowns

Revelation 13
heads - no crows
horns- crowns

Revelation 17:8 can best be analyzed by dividing it into 8a and 8b

8a The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; (this is the status of the beast at the time of John, Revelation 17, 1st century).

8b and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

that is all interesting -
can you name the two beasts?

 

[victorinus]

Sorry, doesn't work. Five had already fallen at the time of John, 1st century.

it does work if you buy into the three johns who wrote the apocalypse -
it is a long story but I will get to it

 

[Straightshot]

"can you name the two beasts?"


Revelation 17 is some what complex, but not if you connect the dots of other related scriptures .... Doug and I agree in principal on this matter with some variations

Briefly ...........

Satan's "beast" is Abaddon/Apollyon .... a fallen angel like Satan [Revelation 9:11; 13:1-4]

This particular beast of Satan's concoction is assigned to 7 Middle Eastern kingdoms [heads] and 7 related human king positions .... 5 are historical ... and 2 are still to come

The 6th smaller at the beginning of the coming tribulation period .... and the 7th expanded/divided next with 10 other human kings

The human little horn of Daniel's visions [Daniel 7; 8; 11:36-45] will rule over both of these end time kingdoms [heads], one after the other .... the beast will influence and control the human little horn at first, and then this beast will completely possess the little horn, become the 8th king himself, and rule over his 7th kingdom [head] directly

The second beast [also a fallen angel] of Satan's concoction [the false prophet] will lead Abaddon's religious cult through two human clerics [2 horns]

 

[victorinus]

Go here:http://www.roman-emperors.org/impindex.htm

Look up Nero. It says in the text, that he was the last of the Julio-Claudian family emperors. He is the king, ruling at the time of John in Revelation 17. The other five are Caesars. The little horn will be a descendant of the Casesars.

The first five "emperors" were of the Julio-claudian family. They start with Augustus Caesar, because techincally Julius Caesar was not considered an emperor - but dictator for life. As far as bible prophecy though Julius Caesar was a king of the Roman Empire, of the Caesar Family.

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius

6. Nero

7. Little horn, the 7th yet to come, continues a short space after being killed and brought back to life as the beast.

are you saying the first beast was mortally wounded with the seventh king?
name the beast, that is all you have to do