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The alternate debating creationists thread

Resha Caner

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I am all about questions, I am like that in my professional life and personal life. I feel I am shooting in the dark, if I don't have adequate information to draw any type of legitimate conclusion.

I'm sorry my attempted scenario isn't working for you. It wasn't my intent to play the role of God for you, because I don't think my answers will help you. Nor was the scenario meant to be about the nature of God.

It was meant to draw on the life experiences you have, and as such, the information you need for this is all around you. Based on that I was hoping you might offer your thoughts. That is why I posed it as God asking you, "What do you want me to do?" It was meant as an open-ended question.

Well, you will never get a LEGITIMATE historian to acknowledge miracles, because they simply can't if they follow the historical method.

I've been taught historical method, but I'm not sure what you think it is because I would not phrase things as you do (though you've made it clear who you will consider as legitimate). In your version the historian is presupposing what happened before he ever engages the text. I don't consider that an objective approach.
 
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Resha Caner

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Where has he gone wrong on the UCA? Is it a scientific objection, or that you do not like the theological implications?

I should have qualified that statement to say I would likely disagree with him. He didn't really articulate his definition of UCA in the link you provided.

The whole discussion centering around UCA is very muddy, so I struggle to understand what exactly is being said. It starts at the one extreme where it would mean biologists actually have physical evidence for the exact unicelluar organism from which all life descended. As I understand it, this is not what is meant by UCA. From there it could go to the other extreme where all it means is that all the life we know lives in this same material universe and is subject to the same physical laws, and this means we share a certain set of similarities. As I understand it, that is not UCA either. So, it's somewhere in the middle. OK, but I'm not sure everyone agrees to what that middle definition is. It seems to float.

That's a belabored preface meant to say that you would have to give me your understanding of UCA before we could really talk about it.

It would seem to me that a person such as Collins, with the resources available to him, had he found a god- (or "God")-shaped hole in evolutionary theory it would be making headlines.

It seems it did make headlines. I sense the same "Yippee!" reaction from both sides of the discussion when such things happen. Either because people think they've won a convert, or because they think they now have an authority figure who will help them win converts.

What's funny is that both sides also reject the idea that such authority figures matter to their side. For science its all about the evidence and for religion the authority is God not man.

As you alluded to in post #13, are you not looking for such a hole yourself? Do you think you have a handle on something that he has overlooked?

No, I am not looking for the "god-shaped hole." In my particular case this is a very casual, curiosity-based venture aimed at a particular challenge I've given myself that has nothing to do with religion. It regards a science of philosophy question of mine.

Given that I don't have a degree in biology, and further that the degree I am actually pursuing is in history, I don't really expect it will go anywhere past my own little venture.
 
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bhsmte

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I'm sorry my attempted scenario isn't working for you. It wasn't my intent to play the role of God for you, because I don't think my answers will help you. Nor was the scenario meant to be about the nature of God.


It was meant to draw on the life experiences you have, and as such, the information you need for this is all around you. Based on that I was hoping you might offer your thoughts. That is why I posed it as God asking you, "What do you want me to do?" It was meant as an open-ended question.

My thoughts should come across quite clearly in the questions I would ask God if he is real. This is how I operate. How could I tell God what to do about it, if I first didn't understand what he is capable of doing about it, or even had any motivation to do anything about it? If it is all up to him, I would need to understand him and when the bible is used to try to understand him, the myriad of christian opinions that try to understand him and looking at the reality of the world, it is as clear as mud.

I've been taught historical method, but I'm not sure what you think it is because I would not phrase things as you do (though you've made it clear who you will consider as legitimate). In your version the historian is presupposing what happened before he ever engages the text. I don't consider that an objective approach.

No, I never said a historian presupposes what happened before examining the text and then looking for proper verification of the text. In regards to matters of 2000 years ago, no historian that follows the historical method objectively, will tell you they know with 100% certainty what happened and what didn't happen. They instead go with degrees of certainty, based on how they can support the claims written down. If a historian is writing about WWII, they can be 100% sure about what happened in regards to some things, and highly confident on others, because their are a number of contemporary written records, film and physical evidence to support the same. This is not the case with the NT, as it is on much weaker footing to begin with. Carrying on stories by verbally sharing them over decades before they are written down, is not the most reliable and trustworthy was to establish what is true and what isn't. The other factor is this, the folks these stories came from, had motivation to tell a certain story, as opposed to being independent and without motivation, which is key to historians. Of all the cults we have had over time, some of which convinced people to commit mass suicide, if any of those people were interviewed, they would tell you the leader of the cult was God and they would tell you stories that verify the same in their mind. Man can write anything they want in a book, what motivated those words and whether they are true or not, is a completely different issue. Historians will automatically disregard the least likely explanation of an event, because their job is to determine the most likely reason for an event, so in this regard, miracles are never substantiated by a historian, because a miracle is the least likely explanation for anything. The resurrection for example. Is it more likely that the people that claimed to see Jesus were having delusions, or even lying, or is it more possible that a human was brought back from the dead? This is a simple answer to them. The theology of these stories is a different matter and scholars will try to interpret the theological meaning, but historians determine whether the story is reliable or not.

For example, most historians will say with confidence that Jesus was real and he lived during the time known. In regards to what he said or what he didn't say, there is significant debate amongst historians in this regard. Most will admit at the least, that some of what is accounted to Jesus, is likely not true and was manufactured to tell a certain story, while other portions, are probably true. In regards to whether Jesus said he was God, is also heavily debated amongst historians. The fact that Matthew, Mark and Luke never mention this critical point disturbs many historians, while the gospel of John, which is generally regarded as the least reliable of the gospels (it was written 70 years after Jesus lived and it has been established stories were clearly added to John centuries later) this gives some historians considerable pause. And low and behold, the historians that would fall under the conservative christian type (which there are many), don't have much problem with any of these issue, but the more moderate scholars, have significant issues with them.
 
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Resha Caner

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My thoughts should come across quite clearly in the questions I would ask God if he is real.

Yes, they do.

No, I never said a historian presupposes what happened before examining the text and then looking for proper verification of the text.

Then you need to be more careful with your phrasing. Your exact words were, "... you will never get a LEGITIMATE historian to acknowledge miracles ..." What can that mean except that in your opinion anyone who acknowledges a miracle is not a legitimate historian? It seems to me, then, that you are insisting historians should presuppose that miracles are not possible.

... contemporary written records, film and physical evidence ...

All of these things can be falsified. Film is not innately superior evidence to that available from the Biblical era. Nor is it wise to think immediacy is more objective than reflection (i.e. the decades you speak of). And I already addressed the "motivation" issue you speak of.

Most will admit at the least, that some of what is accounted to Jesus, is likely not true and was manufactured to tell a certain story, while other portions, are probably true.

As best I know, "most" do not say what you are saying. So, what evidence exists to support this position? Or any of the claims you've been making? I am not aware of any. I'm familiar with the speculation that surrounds the topic (much of it coming from television, Internet forums, and popular books - not peer-reviewed journals), but I've never seen any evidence to support it, so please share.
 
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bhsmte

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Yes, they do.



Then you need to be more careful with your phrasing. Your exact words were, "... you will never get a LEGITIMATE historian to acknowledge miracles ..." What can that mean except that in your opinion anyone who acknowledges a miracle is not a legitimate historian? It seems to me, then, that you are insisting historians should presuppose that miracles are not possible.

If a historian is following the historical method, they can not verify miracles. How could one do so and follow the historical method? A historian may claim personally they think a miracle is true, but that is separate from them following the historical method.

All of these things can be falsified. Film is not innately superior evidence to that available from the Biblical era. Nor is it wise to think immediacy is more objective than reflection (i.e. the decades you speak of). And I already addressed the "motivation" issue you speak of.

Psychologically, reflection is seriously flawed, because it involves including personal motivations to believe in certain things. Written records (from many independent sources without skin in the game) is far superior to reflection.

As best I know, "most" do not say what you are saying. So, what evidence exists to support this position? Or any of the claims you've been making? I am not aware of any. I'm familiar with the speculation that surrounds the topic (much of it coming from television, Internet forums, and popular books - not peer-reviewed journals), but I've never seen any evidence to support it, so please share.

The two links below, provide numerous sources (historians, scholars) as to the general write up.

NT historians agree on three things with a high degree of certainty regarding Jesus:

-He existed
-He was baptized
-He was crucified

Beyond that, there is significant disagreement in regards to what he said or didn't say and what he did or didn't do, because when the historical method is applied, it doesn't deliver a great deal of certainty and some saying or actions attributed to Jesus, do deliver a significant amount of doubt. If you can find a historian that claims they can confirm (through the historical method) that miracles did indeed occur, let me know.

.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Historical reliability of the Gospels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Resha Caner

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If a historian is following the historical method, they can not verify miracles. How could one do so and follow the historical method? A historian may claim personally they think a miracle is true, but that is separate from them following the historical method.

I'll take this as affirmation of my post (#64). I think your idea of what a historian must "verify" (and what constitutes historical method) is probably inaccurate. How much ancient history have you studied apart from the Bible? How much of it is "verified" per the standards you are thinking of?

The two links below, provide numerous sources (historians, scholars) as to the general write up.

Wikipedia is not a good place to start based on what I asked for. I did, however, skim the references for those two pages. As soon as I saw names like John Dominic Crossan and Robert Price making up the list the eye-rolling began. You do realize that would be like a creationist asking you to accept Ken Ham as a respected scientist.

Still, I kept looking - for peer-reviewed historical journals or publishers who specialize in historical monographs. I didn't see any. Maybe I missed them. Regardless, I'll say that I think you need to adjust your reading list.
 
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bhsmte

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I'll take this as affirmation of my post (#64). I think your idea of what a historian must "verify" (and what constitutes historical method) is probably inaccurate. How much ancient history have you studied apart from the Bible? How much of it is "verified" per the standards you are thinking of?



Wikipedia is not a good place to start based on what I asked for. I did, however, skim the references for those two pages. As soon as I saw names like John Dominic Crossan and Robert Price making up the list the eye-rolling began. You do realize that would be like a creationist asking you to accept Ken Ham as a respected scientist.

Still, I kept looking - for peer-reviewed historical journals or publishers who specialize in historical monographs. I didn't see any. Maybe I missed them. Regardless, I'll say that I think you need to adjust your reading list.

Caner, there are numerous historians and scholars listed on the wiki page and most of them are christian scholars. Robert Price is indeed off on his own, with only a few in his camp such as Richard Carrier and I personally disagree with his take. With that said, we are not talking about a perfect science here by any means and looking at how different historians reach their conclusions, helps to paint an overall picture.

Again, you state you have issues with how scientists interpret the evidence for evolution and my position is; I have significant issues with the credibility of the NT and there are a good number of historians and scholars who also have issues as well.

If you can find a historian, that claims following the historical method can verify miracles, then let me know.
 
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juvenissun

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Caner, there are numerous historians and scholars listed on the wiki page and most of them are christian scholars. Robert Price is indeed off on his own, with only a few in his camp such as Richard Carrier and I personally disagree with his take. With that said, we are not talking about a perfect science here by any means and looking at how different historians reach their conclusions, helps to paint an overall picture.

Again, you state you have issues with how scientists interpret the evidence for evolution and my position is; I have significant issues with the credibility of the NT and there are a good number of historians and scholars who also have issues as well.

If you can find a historian, that claims following the historical method can verify miracles, then let me know.

To ancient literatures such as the NT or the OT, the credibility issue should be on the content rather on the authorship. Quite often that we can't even be sure on the authenticity a literature which is only a few hundreds years old. It is virtually meaningless to argue when a particular Book of the NT was written by who and modified by who at what time. But it is critical to examine the meaning of the content, and the theology of the WHOLE Bible. What Christians believe is not the authorship of the Bible, but the content of the Bible.

An excellent example is the Book of Genesis. Its content is simply amazing. I really don't care who wrote it at what time. I don't even care if it were written at the modern time. I am only convinced that the content can not be originated from human wisdom.
 
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Resha Caner

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Again, you state you have issues with how scientists interpret the evidence for evolution ...

Yes, I do.

... and my position is; I have significant issues with the credibility of the NT ...

Fair enough that in like manner you have your reasons for not accepting what some historians might say about the Bible. Were you to study other ancient history, though, I think you will find at the very least that the Bible is not worse off than other ancient documents. I think it is in much better shape, but you probably think me biased. Regardless, if you put the Bible in proper context with other history, it will either drive you to presentism or toward a new consideration of its veracity.

... and there are a good number of historians and scholars who also have issues as well.

I'm sure there are, but they have nothing to corroborate their view. So, it's nothing more than opinion. The most typical strategy employed is the "common man" strategy, which doesn't achieve the ends for which they strive.

If you can find a historian, that claims following the historical method can verify miracles, then let me know.

Well, the historical method would never attempt to "verify" a miracle anyway. I have to say, though, I am making assumptions about what you mean since you haven't expanded on a definition of that term.

You are right that history is not an exact science. In fact, per the modern meaning of the word "science," I'm not sure it should be applied to history at all. Though history is a study of the past, it is much more than an establishment of fact. It delves into the soft attributes of human interaction.

So, part of history incorporates whatever archaeology might provide in terms of physical verification. It incorporates corroboration - keeping in mind that the enemies of Christianity are just as likely to lie in their denial of miracles as supporters are to wish themselves into believing miracles are true. But history also looks at the impact of the claim. The Bible exists. What does that mean to the history of the people it touched?

In terms of whether miracles are possible, that is more a question for science (i.e. the physical sciences) to decide than history. Again, one would have to give a definition of what a miracle is (or better yet what event one is speaking about) before science can study it. Even then, I expect scientists will give their answer carefully. If the answer is not affirmative, it would likely be, "Science cannot yet explain how this might happen."

I do have to say, though, that wandering off into the "We know what was behind the Wizard of Oz's curtain" becomes a matter of uncorroborated speculation which often reveals a biased approach. Tread carefully when you start to see those kinds of answers.
 
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bhsmte

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Yes, I do.



Fair enough that in like manner you have your reasons for not accepting what some historians might say about the Bible. Were you to study other ancient history, though, I think you will find at the very least that the Bible is not worse off than other ancient documents. I think it is in much better shape, but you probably think me biased. Regardless, if you put the Bible in proper context with other history, it will either drive you to presentism or toward a new consideration of its veracity.

Caner, I have looked at the veracity of the NT quite deeply and I am aware of the various opinions from historians as to it's credibility. In looking at the logic they all use and what they base their opinion on, I have come to the conclusion that the NT is on weak footing and much of it has to be taken on faith, as opposed to a high degree of it being reliable. I will add this, of the scientists that work closest with evolution, maybe 1% have doubts as to whether the theory is solid. When it comes to the historians that have studied the NT as their profession, the percentage that doubt the veracity of good portions of it, make up a much larger percentage (much much higher) than the professionals who have doubt in regards to the evidence for evolution. To me, that is quite telling.


I'm sure there are, but they have nothing to corroborate their view. So, it's nothing more than opinion. The most typical strategy employed is the "common man" strategy, which doesn't achieve the ends for which they strive.

Nothing to corroborate their view? When you read various opinions, they typically explain what they are basing their opinion on, it isn't some willy nilly shot in the dark. Determining historical credibility should start with a strict adherence to following the historical method, after that, some historians interpret what they find differently. Some are bias towards supporting the christian story, some are bias against the christian story and others are more objective.



Well, the historical method would never attempt to "verify" a miracle anyway. I have to say, though, I am making assumptions about what you mean since you haven't expanded on a definition of that term.

The historical method has been in place for a long time and is well established. And, I have been saying all along, historians would never substantiate any claim of a miracle, for the reasons I already stated.

You are right that history is not an exact science. In fact, per the modern meaning of the word "science," I'm not sure it should be applied to history at all. Though history is a study of the past, it is much more than an establishment of fact. It delves into the soft attributes of human interaction.

The historical method attempts to put a scientific twist into how history is investigated, but the method is certainly not as rigoris or as testable as the scientific method. Bias comes into play much more, when it comes to history.

So, part of history incorporates whatever archaeology might provide in terms of physical verification. It incorporates corroboration - keeping in mind that the enemies of Christianity are just as likely to lie in their denial of miracles as supporters are to wish themselves into believing miracles are true. But history also looks at the impact of the claim. The Bible exists. What does that mean to the history of the people it touched?

Other holy books exist as well and what it means is; the theology of the book is very important to many. How much of the book is accurate, is another matter, but the theology will always be there for people to interpret in the thousands of different ways they currently do, as is the case with other religions and other holy books.

In terms of whether miracles are possible, that is more a question for science (i.e. the physical sciences) to decide than history. Again, one would have to give a definition of what a miracle is (or better yet what event one is speaking about) before science can study it. Even then, I expect scientists will give their answer carefully. If the answer is not affirmative, it would likely be, "Science cannot yet explain how this might happen."

If a miracle is a suspension of natural forces, then science may struggle to answer the question, because they would have to observe that suspension to verify the same.

I do have to say, though, that wandering off into the "We know what was behind the Wizard of Oz's curtain" becomes a matter of uncorroborated speculation which often reveals a biased approach. Tread carefully when you start to see those kinds of answers.

Not sure what you mean here, but by nature, I am cautious before reaching conclusions and I try to use as much objectivity, evidence and logic as I can. When I don't know the answer to something, I don't make up a story and try an explanation which fits any agenda, I simply say I do not know.
 
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juvenissun

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Not sure what you mean here, but by nature, I am cautious before reaching conclusions and I try to use as much objectivity, evidence and logic as I can. When I don't know the answer to something, I don't make up a story and try an explanation which fits any agenda, I simply say I do not know.

This attitude won't walk far in your every day life.
It is true that you don't know. But you have to know even you don't know. Otherwise, you can not live.

Example: Is your lunch nutritious enough for you? The fact that you take your lunch, means you do know, even you really don't know.
 
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bhsmte

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This attitude won't walk far in your every day life.
It is true that you don't know. But you have to know even you don't know. Otherwise, you can not live.

Example: Is your lunch nutritious enough for you? The fact that you take your lunch, means you do know, even you really don't know.

I walk just fine in my life and by the way, I know a boatload about nutrition.
 
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Davian

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I should have qualified that statement to say I would likely disagree with him. He didn't really articulate his definition of UCA in the link you provided.
"The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming".
(My bold)

Seems clear to me. What do you think is missing there?
The whole discussion centering around UCA is very muddy, so I struggle to understand what exactly is being said. It starts at the one extreme where it would mean biologists actually have physical evidence for the exact unicelluar organism from which all life descended. As I understand it, this is not what is meant by UCA.
I would concur.
From there it could go to the other extreme where all it means is that all the life we know lives in this same material universe and is subject to the same physical laws, and this means we share a certain set of similarities. As I understand it, that is not UCA either. So, it's somewhere in the middle. OK, but I'm not sure everyone agrees to what that middle definition is. It seems to float.

That's a belabored preface meant to say that you would have to give me your understanding of UCA before we could really talk about it.
I don't have a pony in this race. I used Collins as an example as he appears to be a theist that puts the scientific evidence before his theology. I guess what I am asking, out of curiosity, is, do you disagree with him on a scientific basis, or because the idea of a UCA (and the theory of evolution) don't leave enough holes for your theology to fit comfortably?
It seems it did make headlines. I sense the same "Yippee!" reaction from both sides of the discussion when such things happen. Either because people think they've won a convert, or because they think they now have an authority figure who will help them win converts.
I do not recall any headlines regarding the discovery of a god-shaped hole in evolutionary theory.
What's funny is that both sides also reject the idea that such authority figures matter to their side. For science its all about the evidence and for religion the authority is God not man.
Well, religions can make the claim of their particular god to be the authority. Without evidence, theology does lack objectivity.
No, I am not looking for the "god-shaped hole." In my particular case this is a very casual, curiosity-based venture aimed at a particular challenge I've given myself that has nothing to do with religion. It regards a science of philosophy question of mine.

Given that I don't have a degree in biology, and further that the degree I am actually pursuing is in history, I don't really expect it will go anywhere past my own little venture.
 
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Resha Caner

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Well, religions can make the claim of their particular god to be the authority. Without evidence, theology does lack objectivity.

I realize you see it this way. I didn't intend this thread to be a debate about evolution itself, but I also realize it's hard to not go that direction.

"The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming".
(My bold)

Seems clear to me. What do you think is missing there?

...

I don't have a pony in this race. I used Collins as an example as he appears to be a theist that puts the scientific evidence before his theology. I guess what I am asking, out of curiosity, is, do you disagree with him on a scientific basis, or because the idea of a UCA (and the theory of evolution) don't leave enough holes for your theology to fit comfortably?

I'm assuming both of your questions are basically the same and so only require one answer, which is that I have both scientific & theological issues with UCA.

One reason for this thread is that I can never tell if people who ask questions like yours actually hear the answer. I get a variety of responses, but most seem to belie that what I said wasn't really understood. I'm to the point where I just need to admit that I'm not good at explaining some things.
 
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juvenissun

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I walk just fine in my life and by the way, I know a boatload about nutrition.

A boatload? How much is that? I think it is enough to make you think you know it.

We know what we want to know. Even we don't really know, we still know. That is how we live.

So when you say you don't know, that means you don't want to know. For example, you do not know if the Bible is true.
 
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bhsmte

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A boatload? How much is that? I think it is enough to make you think you know it.

Well, an advanced degree in an area which covered much of this topic, would at least give me enough knowledge to be dangerous.

We know what we want to know. Even we don't really know, we still know. That is how we live.

People have different means to convince themselves of what they know and we are all a bit unique in that way (psychological needs). It is healthy to say "I don't know" vs "I know", when you are only fooling yourself.

So when you say you don't know, that means you don't want to know. For example, you do not know if the Bible is true.

You must be psychic to make this assumption, congratulations. Given the time I have spent investigating the bible from a scholarly and historical perspective, your assumption fails, miserably. You don't like my conclusions when it comes to the bible, so you have to pretend you think that I don't want to know. If that makes you feel better, have at it.
 
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juvenissun

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You must be psychic to make this assumption, congratulations. Given the time I have spent investigating the bible from a scholarly and historical perspective, your assumption fails, miserably. You don't like my conclusions when it comes to the bible, so you have to pretend you think that I don't want to know. If that makes you feel better, have at it.

I really think you don't want to know the Bible. If you want to know, then you will know.

I was like you before, so I know.

If you want to know the Bible, at least you should study it the same way as you got your advanced degree. I don't think you ever want to do that.
 
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bhsmte

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I really think you don't want to know the Bible. If you want to know, then you will know.

I was like you before, so I know.

If you want to know the Bible, at least you should study it the same way as you got your advanced degree. I don't think you ever want to do that.

Like I said, you must be psychic.
 
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Davian

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I realize you see it this way. I didn't intend this thread to be a debate about evolution itself, but I also realize it's hard to not go that direction.
I find science to be far more interesting to discuss, as you can look at the evidence. Discussions of theology seem to quickly escalate into a shouting match.

I'm assuming both of your questions are basically the same and so only require one answer, which is that I have both scientific & theological issues with UCA.
I gathered that from your threads here and in the physical sciences forums.
Feel free to get into specifics.
One reason for this thread is that I can never tell if people who ask questions like yours actually hear the answer. I get a variety of responses, but most seem to belie that what I said wasn't really understood. I'm to the point where I just need to admit that I'm not good at explaining some things.
No place like these forums to hammer out those things.
 
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