The Aliens are going to laugh at earth cosmologists explaining 13.8 billion years from creation.

[StevenMerten]

A creative idea. Let's look at it.

1 In that scenario, the first stuff to hit would be after a short time, say a billion years, and the most recent (last)stuff to hit would have much longer ages (say, 10 billion years). So the youngest stuff is at the deepest earth layers, and the oldest on top. That's the opposite of what is seen (the oldest stuff is reliably at the bottom).

In Christ-
Papias

Hello Papias,

Ok, let us go with gravitational Time Dilation. All God has to do is put earth in the gravitational well of a black hole, and time almost stops on earth, due to Time Dilation, while billions of years of star formation come into existence, away from the black hole. In space, billions of years are going by, while only a day or two passes on earth. So the rocks (meteorites) piling up on earth in one or two days, will range from young at first, in the lower layers, to ten or thirteen billion years old, higher in the layers of earth. So if God wanted to put a pile of, billions of years old, rocks on earth, for cosmologists to study, all He has to do is put earth in the gravitational pull of a black hole for a couple days.

Because of Time Dilation, and all the infinite possibilities of time passing from creation to today, God uses night to day cycles on earth to gauge elapsing time. What clock do cosmologists use? Cosmologists use rocks to gauge the time from creation. Well using rocks cannot account for all the infinite possibilities of elapsing physical time that Time Dilation, due to gravity, velocity, and others forces of Time Dilation, have effected those rocks.

The big message of Creation, in Genesis, is that earth, the sun and stars, and everything in the universe, were created for, love for God capable, man. God’s creation of earth is for man, and God’s creation of the stars is for man. Love for God capable, man, is the focus of God’s Creation of the universe.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Hello Papias,

Ok, let us go with gravitational Time Dilation. All God has to do is put earth in the gravitational well of a black hole, and time almost stops on earth, due to Time Dilation, while billions of years of star formation come into existence, away from the black hole. In space, billions of years are going by, while only a day or two passes on earth. So the rocks (meteorites) piling up on earth in one or two days, will range from young at first, in the lower layers, to ten or thirteen billion years old, higher in the layers of earth. So if God wanted to put a pile of, billions of years old, rocks on earth, for cosmologists to study, all He has to do is put earth in the gravitational pull of a black hole for a couple days.

Because of Time Dilation, and all the infinite possibilities of time passing from creation to today, God uses night to day cycles on earth to gauge elapsing time. What clock do cosmologists use? Cosmologists use rocks to gauge the time from creation. Well using rocks cannot account for all the infinite possibilities of elapsing physical time that Time Dilation, due to gravity, velocity, and others forces of Time Dilation, have effected those rocks.

The big message of Creation, in Genesis, is that earth, the sun and stars, and everything in the universe, were created for, love for God capable, man. God’s creation of earth is for man, and God’s creation of the stars is for man. Love for God capable, man, is the focus of God’s Creation of the universe.

CE412: Fast old light

 

[StevenMerten]

CE412: Fast old light

Hello Steve,

I am just bringing your link here for everyone to look at.

Claim CE412:
The earth is near the center of the universe, at the bottom of a deep gravitational well. Relativistic effects result in billions of years passing in the rest of the universe while only thousands pass near the earth. This explains how multibillion-year-old stars and galaxies can exist in a universe only a few thousand years old.
​

Ok, so I am not the first one to see this. Yes, this is exactly what I am thinking when I look at Eienstien's Theory of Reletivity.

Thanks for the help Steve

 

[Steve Petersen]

Hello Steve,

I am just bringing your link here for everyone to look at.

Claim CE412:
The earth is near the center of the universe, at the bottom of a deep gravitational well. Relativistic effects result in billions of years passing in the rest of the universe while only thousands pass near the earth. This explains how multibillion-year-old stars and galaxies can exist in a universe only a few thousand years old.
​

Ok, so I am not the first one to see this. Yes, this is exactly what I am thinking when I look at Eienstien's Theory of Reletivity.

Thanks for the help Steve

Response:

1. Gravitational time dilation, if it existed on such a large scale, should be easily observable. On the contrary, we observe (from the periods of Cepheid variable stars, from orbital rates of binary stars, from supernova extinction rates, from light frequencies, etc.) that such time dilation is minor. There is some time dilation corresponding with Hubble's law (i.e., further objects have greater red shifts), but this is due to the well-understood expansion of the universe, and it is not nearly extreme enough to fit more than ten billion years into less than 10,000.
   
   
2. Humphreys tried to use clocks in the earth's frame of reference. But the cosmos is much older than the earth. Judging from the heavy elements in the sun and the rest of the solar system, our sun is a second-generation star at least. Billions of years must have passed for the first stars to have formed, shone, and become novas, for the gasses from those novas to have gathered into new star systems, and for the earth to form and cool in one such system. The billions of years before the earth are not accounted for in Humphreys's model.
   
   
3. Humphreys's theory assumes that the earth is in a huge gravity well. The evidence contradicts this assumption. If the earth were in such a gravity well, light from distant galaxies should be blue-shifted. Instead, it is red-shifted.
   
   
4. See Conner and Page (1998) and Conner and Ross (1999) for several other technical objections.
   
   
5. There is a great deal of other independent evidence that the earth is very old.
   
   
6. If there were any substance to Humphreys's proposal, at least some competent cosmologists would build on it and share in the Nobel Prize. Instead, they dismiss it as worthless.

 

[StevenMerten]

1. Humphreys's theory assumes that the earth is in a huge gravity well. The evidence contradicts this assumption. If the earth were in such a gravity well, light from distant galaxies should be blue-shifted. Instead, it is red-shifted.

Hello Steve,
Well yes, we are not in the gravitational well of a black hole today. God simply put earth in the gravity well of a black hole while He was puting the stars in the sky. Does this not make sence? Almost no time was passing on God's clock, which is earth, while billions of years of star formation were created by God. Then God moved earth out of the black hole. It died, exploded or space simply expodentially expanded to a point where the black hole could no longer hold earth. The next day, Adam opened his eyes.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Hello Steve,
Well yes, we are not in the gravitational well of a black hole today. God simply put earth in the gravity well of a black hole while He was puting the stars in the sky. Does this not make sence? Almost no time was passing on God's clock, which is earth, while billions of years of star formation were created by God. Then God moved earth out of the black hole. It died, exploded or space simply expodentially expanded to a point where the black hole could no longer hold earth. The next day, Adam opened his eyes.

Nice story; not one shred of evidence for it.

 

[StevenMerten]

Nice story; not one shred of evidence for it.

Hello Steve,
So Jim is the cosmologist going to the Alien confrence on creation. He decides to secretly take the 13.8 billion year old meteorite, from the lab, with him, as proof. He drops the 13.8 billion year old rock, and it breaks in two. One half rolls away and he cannot find it so he only takes the one half. The confrence is on the edge of the universe. His near light speed star ship is fast. A week later Jim returns. Jim secretly puts the two halves back together in the display. Cosmologists are dumbfounded. They date the two halves of the rock. One half is 41.4 billion years old, the age they expected it to be. However, the puzzle is that the other half is only 13.8 billion years old. How could this be, they all exclaim! It made front page news in all the science papers. Jim is not giving it up that he took the one half of the rock on his near light speed trip to the edge of the universe and back in a week vs the 27.6 billion years that passed on earth, due to its slower velocity. This is Time Dilation. Jim does not want to get barred from the cosmologist country club for having stolen their prize meteorite. Even though he did bring it back, 27.6 billion years later, in present earth velocity time. There is no evidence that Jim committed this crime. So the mystery exists to the cosmologists.

 

[StevenMerten]

I changed the name of the cosmologist from Jon to Jim. I have other stories out there using the name Jon.

 

[Papias]

Hello Papias,

Ok, let us go with gravitational Time Dilation.

Steve P pointed out the problems with this (thanks for the link, Steve P.).

Steven Merten, you didn't answer any of my questions in that post. Here they are for your convenience:

A creative idea. Let's look at it.

1 In that scenario, the first stuff to hit would be after a short time, say a billion years, and the most recent (last)stuff to hit would have much longer ages (say, 10 billion years). So the youngest stuff is at the deepest earth layers, and the oldest on top. That's the opposite of what is seen (the oldest stuff is reliably at the bottom).

2 Next, think of the millions of fossils. We have, say, fish that show an age of 200 million years. So these fish were in space, and then hit the earth? A T-rex out in space, "getting old", before it hit the earth? I don't think that makes sense. We have millions of fossils that are old - this sounds like they had to be waiting around out in space until the earth hit them.

3 Plus they would get destroyed on impact - we wouldn't have the nice, nearly complete skeletal fossils we sometimes have.

4 The impact energy scales with the square of the speed (E=mv^2) - that's why the dinosaur asteroid could do so much damage worldwide. But at nearly the speed of light, those things hitting would have enough energy to destroy the earth, because they are moving thousands of times as fast as the dinosaur asteroid, and would hence have millions of times the energy.

I could go on, but basically the windshield idea doesn't work at all.



It's not plausible. As pointed out above, the windshield idea simply doesn't work.

Plus, the other points brought up last post are still a problem:

5 You can look up at the sky any clear night and see for yourself that the stars in all directions look the same. (red shift/blue shift)

6 As pointed out before, the order of creation described by a literal reading of Genesis is very different from that shown by the evidence. Time dilation won't change the order.

7 You can see that it's made of heavier elements just by picking up a clod of dirt. The Big Bang produced hydrogen and a little helium. Stars formed from that, and used fusion to fuse the hydrogen and helium into heavier elements like carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, silicon

8 But according to a literal reading of Genesis, the stars weren't made over four days. They were made all on day four - maybe instantly, maybe over a day, but in either case, it doesn't fit your time dilation idea.....​

In Christ-

Papias

 

[StevenMerten]

Steve P pointed out the problems with this (thanks for the link, Steve P.).

Steven Merten, you didn't answer any of my questions in that post. Here they are for your convenience:

A creative idea. Let's look at it.

1 In that scenario, the first stuff to hit would be after a short time, say a billion years, and the most recent (last)stuff to hit would have much longer ages (say, 10 billion years). So the youngest stuff is at the deepest earth layers, and the oldest on top. That's the opposite of what is seen (the oldest stuff is reliably at the bottom).
​

Hello Papias, freind in Christ,
What are you talking about? Did you read my post 41? I had to think about it. If you are right about the layers of meteroites on earth being layered oldest to youngest, and I trust you, then we would be talking about gravitational Time Dilation, like that of a black hole, rather than velocity Time Dilation. God simply parks earth in the gravity well of a black hole and all this space debris simply falls on to earth in layers, oldest to youngest. Time on earth is dilated down to days going by, as many billions of years are going by away from the black hole. This eliminates the impact problem, and fits into the layered, oldest to youngest, meteorites. This makes scense, right?

No, there are no fish fossils or T-Rex bones for earth to run into. Lets focus, for now, on whether or not God can bring billions of years of star formation into existence in six days, or less, on earth.
Do we still agree that, using Time Dilation, billions of years of star formation can occur in days, due to Time Dilation? We are simply at the point of discussing, yes it can but did it happen that way in creation. Right? If creationists and science can come together in agreement that fourteen billion years of star formation can happen within six days, this is a major accomplishment alone. Would you not agree?

Common, we are still on day one through day three. Earth does not get a moon, sun and stars till day four.

In Christ, Steve

 

[Papias]

Hello Papias, freind in Christ,
What are you talking about? Did you read my post 41?

Yes. I agree that a gravitational well fixes the order of rock ages on earth. However, it's still completely inconsistent with the rocks. For instance, many of the rocks are sedimentary (made from eroded material) - which doesn't fit the gravity well explanation. The same goes for igneous and metamorphic rocks. Those rocks are datable, and show ages as described earlier. The proportion of rocks that are meteors is extremely small. If earth rocks were in any way consistent with the gravity well idea, it would be obvious to geologists (most of whom are Christian). The idea that earth rocks came from above as in the gravity well idea is contradicted even more than the idea that all the roadways on earth were made by plate tectonics.

No, there are no fish fossils or T-Rex bones for earth to run into. Lets focus, for now, on whether or not God can bring billions of years of star formation into existence in six days, or less, on earth.

If all the other points brought up show that the gravity well (and or flying earth) idea doesn't work, then ignore those points?

Do we still agree that, using Time Dilation, billions of years of star formation can occur in days, due to Time Dilation? ...If creationists and science can come together in agreement that fourteen billion years of star formation can happen within six days, this is a major accomplishment alone. Would you not agree?

Not in any useable way. I have seen no idea proposed here that even comes close to making sense as a whole. Time dilation cannot change how long something takes in it's own frame. It can slow down the earth frame, as you say, but that doesn't help anything (for instance, the speed of animal creation by evolution would be unaffected).

Common, we are still on day one through day three. Earth does not get a moon, sun and stars till day four.
In Christ, Steve

No. The text says that the stars were made on day 4, not in days 1-3. You still have to have the formation of the earth first (according to a literal reading of Genesis), which is made up of the remains of exploded stars in the first place. You also have to make a hard dome over a flat earth, with the sun inside, under water (which is also made up of exploded stars) and so on. It simply doesn't work in any literal way that is consistent with reality.

In Christ- Papias

 

[Geoff m]

time is nothing more than the speed of revolution of the earth

 

[StevenMerten]

Dating Dinosaur Bones​

So Frank has loaded all the museum dinosaur bones on his, near light speed, star ship and is off to the Alien conference on creation. At a billion light years out, he realizes that he forgot T-rex’s skull. So they turn around and return to earth to get the skull. Frank’s father had died in this time and his tomb, as earth's lead archeologist was on display as well. Frank loaded the skull and tomb and went off to the convention.

All the Alien children are amazed at the display of dinosaur bones. As Frank starts his presentation, little alien Arlene raises her hand. Arlene wants to know why T-rex’s head is two billion years older than his body. Little Tommy, the alien boy, wants to know why the archeologist, who dug up the dinosaur bones, is two billion years old, while the dinosaurs are only 200 million years old. The children find this funny and they are laughing. You see the aliens had dated the objects themselves to verify their ages.

Frank was going to talk about radiocarbon dating, but now he sees that he has to first talk about the bigger issue, Time Dilation. In our starship, we flew 13.8 billion light years to this convention in a couple days. Back on earth 13.8 billion years went by, but to us only days went by. We had to turn around at a billion light years out, to return to earth, in which physical time on earth had aged two billion years. All the dinosaur bones on the ship only aged a day or so, so they are still only two hundred million years old; this is why T-rex’s skull is two billion years older than his body. The same goes for my father the archeologist. By the time I am done with my full universe tour, these two million year old dinosaur fossils will be among the youngest fossils in the universe. This is Time Dilation.

Little Arlene the alien wants to know if Frank is a god, because only he seems to know the real age of the dinosaur bones. Frank has to admit, only God knows how Time Dilation affected the age of these dinasour fossils, before man was created.

Albert Einstein once stated, ‘I will probably never comprehend the ‘Now’’. Albert Einstein discovered Time Dilation. Einstein was perfectly confident in looking at how physical time works in future, present and past scenarios. It was the ‘now’ that was hard for him to even comprehend. This story, along with my other stories, is what Einstein was talking about. I will try to find the exact quote.

Are there any people unfamiliar with Time Dilation, reading this thread? Any, questions, comments, or ideas? Please post. I would love to hear from you

 

[StevenMerten]

Hello Papias,
Would you please confirm that my senario in post 53 is how physical time really works? For readers who are not familiar with how Time Dilation works, the above senario shows them how physical time is a variable and not the constant that they think it is.

By the time Frank puts his near light speed star ship in second gear, my 2004 Buick is already older than the dinosaur bones. My kids tell me my Buick is a dinasour, Frank, will make my Buick literally older than the dinasours. LOL This is how physical time really works.

 

[Steve Petersen]

 

[Steve Petersen]

 

[Papias]

Hello Papias,
Would you please confirm that my senario in post 53 is how physical time really works? For readers who are not familiar with how Time Dilation works, the above senario shows them how physical time is a variable and not the constant that they think it is.

I explained earlier that your use of the term "variable" and "constant" in this way are misleading. Please re-read that. I can post it again if you'd like.

LOL This is how physical time really works.

I also explained in posts 49 and 51 why this doesn't help creationism at all, and raises more questions than it solves. Did you read those posts? What point are you trying to make that is consistent with posts #49 and 51?

In Christ -
Papias

 

[StevenMerten]

...this doesn't help creationism at all, and raises more questions than it solves.

In Christ -
Papias

Hello Papias,
Welcome back. I feared you left.

Have you ever watched 'Myth Busters'? I firmly believe that Creationists and, 13.8 billion year from creation guys, can peacefully, scientifically, coexist in Christianity. The science, using Time Dilation, is there for this. We can scientifically agree to disagree on how Creation actually went down. I am on the Creationist side and you are on the, 13.8 billion years from creation, side. We are going to work this out. In Myth Busters, the first thing they do is examine whether or not a particular myth is feasible, or plausable, or not. You support the cosmologists who have the myth that six days of creation is impossibe accordding to science. I support the Creationists, who see the cosmologists 13.8 billion years from creation as an unbreakable reality, a myth. So here we go; Myth Busters on Christian Forums Creationism forum. If you are worried about confusing the Creationists, why on earth are you here? In the poll on this thread, like 18 to 5, are already in favor of Creationism.

Hey, How did you like my post 53? I like it! I would like it if you confirmed that this is how Time Dilation works.

I do have answers and comments for your past comments. Work/commute takes up 13 hours per work day. Family takes up much of the weekend. I do want to think hard on when it is my move in this Creation chess game. Comments are coming. Meanwhile, what do you think of post 53?

In Christ,
Steven

 

[StevenMerten]

Hello Papias,

You do agree that if Frank loads his 200 million year old dinosaur fossils on a near light speed star ship and travels to the edge of the universe, 13.8 billion light years away, the fossils are still roughly 200 million years old, right? You agree that if Frank travels 13.8 light years out, that that means that 13.8 billion years went by on earth during his trip, even if he did the trip in days, right? This is Time Dilation, right?

I believe God used Time Dilation to bring earth into existence in six days, while God created billions of years of star formation, around earth. God’s focus is, love for God capable, man, which He created, and placed on earth, on the sixth day.

In Christ,
Steven

 

[Papias]

Hello Papias,
Welcome back. I feared you left.

Thank you.

I firmly believe that Creationists and, 13.8 billion year from creation guys, can peacefully, scientifically, coexist in Christianity. The science, using Time Dilation, is there for this.

I explained in posts 49 and 51 why this is not the case. You have repeatedly ignored those answers, and even ignored the times I pointed back to them. It's not a discussion when one person ignores what the other says.

Hey, How did you like my post 53? I like it! I would like it if you confirmed that this is how Time Dilation works.

I answered that in post #57. I've answered it before that too. Those posts have been ignored. Why would I think that answering it yet again would have a different result? You know the definition of insanity, right? It's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result than the result of all the previous times. I try not to be insane.

I do have answers and comments for your past comments. Work/commute takes up 13 hours per work day. ...

I'm busy too. Take your time in answering #49 and #51. I don't mind waiting.

In Christ-

Papias