The Age of the Universe

[Michael]

Bad research, Michael.
Is space really expanding? A counterexample (3 Jul 2006; Concepts Phys. 4 (2007) 17-34)
is countered by
Is space expanding in the Friedmann universe models? (18 Sep 2006; accepted for publication in Am. J. Phys)

You're behind the times:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0911.3536

 

[Michael]

That is not right, sparow: It is tested science in labs that a moving source of light redshifts the light. This is the Doppler effect. This how police RADAR works.

More absolutely false advertising! Doppler shift has *nothing* whatsoever to do with "space expansion". Epic fail.

We use the Doppler effect to measure the speeds of many astronomical objects, e.g. the redshift of stars on one side of a galaxy tells is how fast they are travelling away from us and the blue shift of stars on the other side of a galaxy tells is how fast they are travelling toward us.

Doppler shift has *nothing* to do with 'space expansion' however, so your premise is flawed from the start.

The Doppler effect may be in the text book: Perspectives of Modern Physics, Arthur Beiser, formerly Professor of Physics, New York University, 1969, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 68-13508

The Doppler effect is related to *moving objects* RC, not "space expansion". Pure bait and switch.

What makes the redshift that we observe for galaxies cosmological is Hubble's Law.

Yet Hubble himself *rejected* your claims. Why is that RC?

 

[Doveaman]

The speed of light is c. Detecting a galaxy that is X light-years away means by basic Newtonian physics that it took the light cX years to get here. Thus a galaxy 13 billion light-years away from us means that that universe is at least 13 billion years old.

Thus a galaxy 46 billion light-years away from us means that that universe is at least 46 billion years old.

What makes the redshift that we observe for galaxies cosmological is Hubble's Law.

Was it Hubble who came up with the idea that empty space is expanding?

In empty space, what is expanding?

Can nothing expand?

 

[SpiritRehab]

Think!

I don't know why you're shouting at me to think?
I believe God created the Universe about 6,000 years ago.

I was siting Scientific evidences to prove Humans are still unable to calculate the age of the universe.

 

[Chriliman]

I don't know why you're shouting at me to think?
I believe God created the Universe about 6,000 years ago.

I was siting Scientific evidences to prove Humans are still unable to calculate the age of the universe.

Sorry, I wasn't directing that at you, more towards the atheists/agnostics/humanist who are reading. I really like what you said, it helped me better define how I believe God created the universe.

God bless!

 

[SpiritRehab]

Sorry, I wasn't directing that at you, more towards the atheists/agnostics/humanist who are reading. I really like what you said, it helped me better define how I believe God created the universe.

God bless!

Oh Cools

 

[Justatruthseeker]

The age of the universe can not be determined in a big bang cosmology. In such a cosmology the universe is expanding at an increasing acceleration - changing the rate of local clocks. As one goes backwards in times clocks must tick faster as well as decay rates become faster. Using time as we measure it today is useless far into the past. It is valid to only 50 to 60 thousand years. Anything beyond that and the error rate increases exponentially.

So if anyone wishes to make claims of age - then they should follow their own theory and adjust the clocks accordingly. Since no one does this we must assume that either they do not believe in a universe accelerating at an increasing rate, or that they do not believe in relativity.

 

[Loudmouth]

The age of the universe can not be determined in a big bang cosmology. In such a cosmology the universe is expanding at an increasing acceleration - changing the rate of local clocks.

You can always measure the age of the universe according to Earth's clocks and Earth's frame of reference.

As one goes backwards in times clocks must tick faster as well as decay rates become faster.

Clocks have always ticked at the same rate within a given frame of reference.

Using time as we measure it today is useless far into the past. It is valid to only 50 to 60 thousand years. Anything beyond that and the error rate increases exponentially.

Clocks ticked at the same rate on Earth 50 million years ago as they do now.

 

[Doveaman]

Clocks ticked at the same rate on Earth 50 million years ago as they do now.

I disagree.

 

[[serious]]

I disagree.

I disagree that you disagree!

 

[zardak]

The atheists and God-rejectors came in here with their 'theories' and thinking they know what is what, and basically suggesting that Christians believe in a non-existent creation, but really if we be honest the Christians in this thread have knocked you all out of the park. You've been owned, give-up! You thought you could come in here spouting your irreligious unfounded scientific non-sense, but you got served, plain and simple.

Veracity is the basis of everything that God is. When atheists try to usurp the truth with misnomers and hearsay, all they are doing is making fools of themselves. They cite data as facts, and they name names of self-professed experts, but all we see is fallacious claims based-on skewed evidence and poking in the dark, because that's where they live, in the dark.
But God has called Christians out of darkness into His marvelous light, in which we now dwell, and His Grace empowers us to live a life of victory when we choose the right path and walk in faith by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and live by integrity and the word of God, that's why God gave us His word, so we would know what is what, but no, that's not good enough for the God-rejectors! Scoffers and mockers, that is all you are.

Ask these atheists if the believe in gravity, they can feel and see the affect of it, right? But they can't explain it!
Even God-rejecting scientists state gravity as a fact, despite the fact that we CAN'T SEE IT; so they would have us believe that gravity is real, correct? Same thing with God... we can observe and feel and know what He does IN US by His Holy Spirit, but then ask the Atheists how they can believe in something they can't see, like gravity. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

You're playing with fire, Atheists! "For our God IS a consuming fire" Heb 12:29

"And it was "morning", and it was "evening", the second day." and so on and so forth < very self-explanatory...


John 8:24 Jesus speaking... "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Hebs 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were formed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made from visible things."


1 Corinthians Chap 1 vs 20-21... "Where is the wise man? Where is the theologian? Where is the disputer of this world? Hasn't God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 Inasmuch as in the wisdom of God the world has not known God through wisdom... it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."



Carbon dating and all other forms of modern dating methods have been shown to be false and unreliable. FYI Christians did a test and hid an object in the rocky canyons deep in the earth, and after 3 months when it fossilized they took it and asked the scientists to date it for them, and the scientists said it was 10 million years old.. so there's your futile so-called facts... ROFL

The scientists tell us that here in Australia that Aborigines are the most ancient race on earth dating into hundreds of thousands of years, but then that is an utter lie, because Christians know the whole human race started again from 8 people, Noah and his family; was Noah and his family Aborigine?? LOL. Wake-up, Aethiests.

1 Tim 6: 20-21 "keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and VAIN BABBLINGS, and oppositions of SCIENCE FALSELY SO-CALLED:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee."

These scientists are spouting speculative garbage. Look at the documentaries on TV... one minute something is 200 thousand years old, the next minute something is 50 billion years old, the next minute something is 10 thousand years old blah blah, wild speculative guessing and pure lies! Pulling numbers out of thin air at random, with 'nothing' to substantiate it, just wild speculation and guessing, that's all it is. Let's call a spade a spade and get back to reality shall we... 6000 years ago God created the heaven (space/cosmos/universe) and the earth.

Explain (with veracity) how dating methods can discern a difference between 100 trillion and 60 billion and 40 million. Even a teenager with half a brain-cell could see that doesn't make sense. A load of absolute garbage!!! The earth has been dated (BY NON-CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS) as 6000 years old. The methodology was more reliable (THEY SAID) than counting the rings on a tree (which is infallible). End of story!



There is what is verifiable evidence, and there are fallacies and speculation, one must know the difference; unfortunately the atheists will believe in anything as long as they don't have to accept that they are a sinner... 1 John 1:8... "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

C'mon, Atheists, forget the the speculation and theory, THAT'S ALL IT IS, in contrast to Genisis chap 1:31 "And God saw every thing that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And the EVENING and the MORNING were THE SIXTH DAY"

What part of that don't you fruitcakes understand?? LOL

John 17:17 Jesus speaking... "Sanctify them through thy truth, Father: for thy word is truth."


Eph 6:17"And wield the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD OF GOD"



Because we have believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God...

 

[bhsmte]

The atheists and God-rejectors came in here with their futile 'theories' and unfounded speculations, and thinking they know what is what, and suggesting that Christians believe in a non-existent creation, but really if we be honest the Christians here in this thread have knocked you all out of the park LOL. You've been owned, give-up! They thought they could come in here spouting their irreligious unfounded scientific spew and got served beyond their ability to comprehend the simple plain truth.

Veracity is the basis of everything that God is. When atheists try to usurp the truth with misnomers and hearsay, all they are doing is making fools of themselves. They cite data as facts, and they name names of 'so-called' experts, but all we see is fallacious claims based-on skewed evidence and poking in the dark, because that's where they live, in the dark. But God has called Christians out of darkness into His marvelous light, in which we now dwell, and His Grace which empowers us to live a life of victory when we choose the right path and walk in faith by the guidance of the holy Spirit and live by integrity and His word. that's why God gave us His word, so we would know what is what, but no, that's not good enough for the God-rejectors! Scoffers and mockers, that essentially is all you are

Ask these atheists if the believe in gravity, they can feel and see the affect of it, but they can't explain it, right? Even these scientists would state gravity as a fact, despite the fact that we can't see it, so they would have us believe that gravity is real, right? Same thing with God... we can observe and feel and know what He does IN US by His holy Spirit, but then ask the Atheists how they can believe in something they can't see like gravity. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

You're playing with fire, Atheists! "For our God is a consuming fire" Heb 12:29

"And it was "morning", and it was "evening", the second day." and so on and so forth < that is very self-explanatory... Holdfast that sound doctrine and the word of truth.

1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

John 8:24 Jesus speaking... "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

KJV - Hebs 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." KJV



1 Corinthians Chap 1 vs 20-21... "Where is the wise? Where is the theologian? Where is the disputer of this world? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since in God's wisdom, the world hasn't known God through wisdom; it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

"Above all, wield the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD OF GOD"


Carbon dating and 'every' other form of modern dating methods have been shown to be false and unreliable and utterly futile. FYI Christians did a test and hid an object in the rocky canyons deep in the earth, and after 3 months when it fossilized they took it and asked the scientists to date it for them, and the scientists said it was 10 million years old.. so there's your futile so-called facts... ROFL

The scientists tell us that here in Australia (i myself was born in New Zealand) that Aborigines are the most ancient race on earth dating into hundreds of thousands of years, but then that is an utter lie, because we know the whole human race started again from 8 people Noah and his family; was Noah and his family Aborigine??? LOL. Wake-up people!

1 Tim 6: 20-21 "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and VAIN BABBLINGS, and oppositions of science FALSELY SO-CALLED:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee."

These scientists spouting speculative garbage everywhere. Look at the documentaries on TV... one minute something is 50 billion years old, the next minute something is 200,000 years old, the next minute something is 10,000 years old blah blah, wild speculative guessing and pure lies! Pulling numbers out of the air at random, just wild speculation and guessing,that's all it is. Let's call a spade a spade and get back to reality shall we... 6000 years ago God created the heaven (space/cosmos/universe) and the earth, end of story LOL

How can dating methods discern a difference between 100 trillion and 60 billion and 40 million??????????????????? What a load of pure absolute garbage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The earth has been dated (BY NON-CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS) as 6000 years old. The methodology was more reliable (THEY SAID) than counting the rings on a tree (which is infallible). End of story!



There is what is verifiable evidence, and there are fallacies and speculation; unfortunately the atheists will believe in anything as long as they don't have to accept that they are a sinner... 1 John 1:8... "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

C'mon, Atheists, forget the the speculation and theory, THAT's ALL IT IS, in contrast to Genisis chap 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the EVENING AND THE MORNING were THE SIXTH DAY"

What part of that don't you fruitcakes understand??? LOL

Fruitcakes????

I hate fruitcake.

 

[AV1611VET]

I disagree.

Lolsville!

 

[florida2]

The atheists and God-rejectors came in here with their 'theories' and thinking they know what is what, and basically suggesting that Christians believe in a non-existent creation,

I imagine they do it in the same way you reject creation stories in Islam or Hinduism or Buddism etc. etc.

but really if we be honest the Christians in this thread have knocked you all out of the park. You've been owned, give-up! You thought you could come in here spouting your irreligious unfounded scientific non-sense, but you got served, plain and simple.

I've been following this thread and have not seen one example of this. Care to give an example?

Veracity is the basis of everything that God is. When atheists try to usurp the truth with misnomers and hearsay,

I think you mean evidence and research

They cite data as facts,

What's the difference in your mind and can you give an example?

and they name names of self-professed experts, but all we see is fallacious claims based-on skewed evidence and poking in the dark, because that's where they live, in the dark.

Naming names of self-professed experts (often through quote mining) is one of the very top creationist tactics.

But God has called Christians out of darkness into His marvelous light, in which we now dwell, and His Grace empowers us to live a life of victory when we choose the right path and walk in faith by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and live by integrity and the word of God, that's why God gave us His word, so we would know what is what, but no, that's not good enough for the God-rejectors! Scoffers and mockers, that is all you are.

Plenty of Christians who accept evolution and love science.

Ask these atheists if the believe in gravity, they can feel and see the affect of it, right? But they can't explain it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_general_relativity

Even God-rejecting scientists state gravity as a fact, despite the fact that we CAN'T SEE IT; so they would have us believe that gravity is real, correct?

You can't see magnetic fields but, like gravity, you can test its properties through experiments and analyse the results to produce models and theories. They are repeatable natural phenomena which are pretty well explained (with some ironing out to do). You can't directly see all the parts of an atom yet quantum physics is one of the strongest and well-evidenced theories in all of science. If you can't see something directly you can still measure its effects to explain it.

Same thing with God... we can observe and feel and know what He does IN US by His Holy Spirit, but then ask the Atheists how they can believe in something they can't see, like gravity. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

As God and his actions are supernatural by their nature it is impossible for them to be measured and observed in a scientific way.

Carbon dating and all other forms of modern dating methods have been shown to be false and unreliable. FYI Christians did a test and hid an object in the rocky canyons deep in the earth, and after 3 months when it fossilized they took it and asked the scientists to date it for them, and the scientists said it was 10 million years old.. so there's your futile so-called facts... ROFL

Link? Evidence? So many creationists over the years on this forum claim that dating methods are wrong yet they continue to be used by the people who actually know about them and have studied the science behind them. I wonder who's right?!

The scientists tell us that here in Australia that Aborigines are the most ancient race on earth dating into hundreds of thousands of years, but then that is an utter lie, because Christians know the whole human race started again from 8 people, Noah and his family; was Noah and his family Aborigine?? LOL. Wake-up, Aethiests.

Perhaps Noah and his family never existed and it was just a story. Again, Muslims would claim something different. Hindus something else. You can't just call science and archaeology an utter lie because of one story you believe. The aborigine story and history is one of the most amazing in all of human history yet is so often overlooked, sadly.

These scientists are spouting speculative garbage. Look at the documentaries on TV... one minute something is 200 thousand years old, the next minute something is 50 billion years old, the next minute something is 10 thousand years old blah blah, wild speculative guessing and pure lies! Pulling numbers out of thin air at random, with 'nothing' to substantiate it, just wild speculation and guessing, that's all it is. Let's call a spade a spade and get back to reality shall we... 6000 years ago God created the heaven (space/cosmos/universe) and the earth.

Nothing is 50 billion years old. The universe is only about 13.8 billion. Which documentaries are you talking about? Have you done research into dating methods and how they function? There are several members on the forum here who can explain for you. Saying that 'reality' is a 6000 year old universe is way off the mark.

Explain (with veracity) how dating methods can discern a difference between 100 trillion and 60 billion and 40 million. Even a teenager with half a brain-cell could see that doesn't make sense. A load of absolute garbage!!! The earth has been dated (BY NON-CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS) as 6000 years old. The methodology was more reliable (THEY SAID) than counting the rings on a tree (which is infallible). End of story!

Well, the first two number you used are many times older than the universe.

Which scientists have dated the Earth to be 6000 years old? Link? Evidence?

What about other dating methods that say the Earth is more than 6000 years old? End of story? Or do you just accept the results you like?

There is what is verifiable evidence, and there are fallacies and speculation, one must know the difference; unfortunately the atheists will believe in anything as long as they don't have to accept that they are a sinner... 1 John 1:8... "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

I haven't seen you post a single piece of evidence in your post.

C'mon, Atheists, forget the the speculation and theory, THAT'S ALL IT IS, in contrast to Genisis chap 1:31 "And God saw every thing that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And the EVENING and the MORNING were THE SIXTH DAY"

What part of that don't you fruitcakes understand?? LOL

Insulting the people you want to convert? Lovely.

A 6000 year old Earth story and the evidence do not match up. Research, evidence and building theories is what science is all about - just trying to figure out how the universe works which is a pretty awesome thing to do. You do know the scientific use of the word 'theory', don't you?

John 17:17 Jesus speaking... "Sanctify them through thy truth, Father: for thy word is truth."

Providing you've insulted them first.

 

[Brownstoned]

I don't like to speak as if I know what I'm talking about by repeating what I heard from someone else (without giving credit to the true source). I think it's called "parroting". So I would recommend people listen to Chuck Missler's commentary on Genesis. It's been a while since I listened, but I believe he said that after the fall, entropy was introduced and has caused the speed of light to slow down. Somehow that has caused stars that God created from a distance to be seen now, whereas if there never was a fall, they would have been seen long ago.
Something like that. You can find his commentary on youtube for free.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't like to speak as if I know what I'm talking about by repeating what I heard from someone else (without giving credit to the true source). I think it's called "parroting". So I would recommend people listen to Chuck Missler's commentary on Genesis. It's been a while since I listened, but I believe he said that after the fall, entropy was introduced and has caused the speed of light to slow down. Somehow that has caused stars that God created from a distance to be seen now, whereas if there never was a fall, they would have been seen long ago.
Something like that. You can find his commentary on youtube for free.

Is that from his creation series with Mark Eastman?

 

[sparow]

Insulting the people you want to convert? Lovely.

A 6000 year old Earth story and the evidence do not match up. Research, evidence and building theories is what science is all about - just trying to figure out how the universe works which is a pretty awesome thing to do. You do know the scientific use of the word 'theory', don't you?



Providing you've insulted them first.

I believe science means the accumulation of knowledge; all astronomy seems to be based on red light shift which is observation followed by assumption and guessing, hardly knowledge. I do not believe the Bible says the earth is 6000 years old; it can be calculated that it is 6000 years since Adam. I regard the creation story as a parable to establish the type for which the 6000 years since Adam are the anti-type; it is the kingdom of God that is taking 6000 years to create.


<<Plenty of Christians who accept evolution and love science.>>


There are three words here that are problematic; Christian, evolution and science. Science can be Atheistic or Godly; a few Christians keep the Commandments of God most do not. Before Darwin sodomised the word, evolution was useful as a word and as a concept; evolution as of the same genre as time; time is the mechanism the human brain uses to comprehend motion, a cognitional function. Atheist Scientists usually regard time as the object in motion such that it can be warped, travelled through, forwards and backwards and worm holed.

 

[sfs]

<<Plenty of Christians who accept evolution and love science.>>
There are three words here that are problematic; Christian, evolution and science.

I am a Christian, I accept evolution, and I practice science, including evolutionary biology. Do you have a problem with any of that?

 

[Brownstoned]

Is that from his creation series with Mark Eastman?

It's from his creation series, I believe it was released in 2004. He gets very scientific. He speaks really fast, but most people should be able to keep up (i had to pause a few times, even rewind... thinking "what?").
He brings up topics I would have never thought of in a conference on Genesis. Such as the structure of atoms, and how the electron revolves around the nucleus, and the distance between the electron and the nucleus is so massive (compared to the size of the nucleus and electron) that the majority of an atom is actually just space. He uses his pulpit as an example, and says it may appear to be solid wood, but actually its majority just empty space. And that the only thing holding the atom (and his pulpit) together solid is God himself.
What brought me to watch his series was a youtube search for the Nephilim. He's a big believer of it (I haven't done enough reading like I should to agree or disagree with him, but the points he brings up are interesting). At least in 2004 he was (not sure if he is now).

 

[AV1611VET]

It's from his creation series, I believe it was released in 2004. He gets very scientific. He speaks really fast, but most people should be able to keep up (i had to pause a few times, even rewind... thinking "what?").
He brings up topics I would have never thought of in a conference on Genesis. Such as the structure of atoms, and how the electron revolves around the nucleus, and the distance between the electron and the nucleus is so massive (compared to the size of the nucleus and electron) that the majority of an atom is actually just space. He uses his pulpit as an example, and says it may appear to be solid wood, but actually its majority just empty space. And that the only thing holding the atom (and his pulpit) together solid is God himself.
What brought me to watch his series was a youtube search for the Nephilim. He's a big believer of it (I haven't done enough reading like I should to agree or disagree with him, but the points he brings up are interesting). At least in 2004 he was (not sure if he is now).

I love Chuck Missler's teachings, and I learned a lot from him.

I especially like the way he describes the Bible as being:

Written in spread-spectrum design, immune to hostile jamming.