The abomination of desolation.

[The Times]

I find this a fascinating subject; what has inspired me today is this: What Is the Abomination of Desolation?

I do not agree with every thing said in this video but it is a starting point for a conversation.

There are two parts, the abomination and the desolation

Using the info provided by UCG, the Greek king orders the Jews to stop keeping the Law and to do things the Law forbids; this was repeated during the inquisitions when people were forbidden from keeping the Sabbath; I expect the Law of God to be forbidden again. But is God concerned with what the Pagans do, or is the abomination to do with the Jews abandoning God.

In the example of the Jews rebuilding the Temple and practicing the Law in the superseded manner that denies the coming and presence of the Messiah; this would be an abomination.

Firstly, to your question of Jews without Christ Jesus abandoning God, well this is not a logical question, because how could Jews without Christ Jesus have God in the first place?

Jesus said......

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John would say......

No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

So the Jews without Christ Jesus have not God also. This means that they are cast out as desolates, having no part in the commonwealth of heavenly New Jerusalem.

Jesus would say......

Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This meant that Jesus called the apostate Pharisical Jewish religion as a desolate house without God.

The only way, that they would be accepted as God's people, is as Jesus said....

For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

I watched the video clip and agree on the fulfilment of the initial prophesy concerning the abomination of desolation before Christ's Olivet Discourse, when Antiochus IV Epiphanes stopped the sacrifices and installed an abomination of desolation in place of where the temple sacrifice ought to have been done, before Messiah came and was to be the Lamb of God to do away the sins of the world.

My disagreement is on who the desolates are? and what the daily sacrifice is as far as God the Father is concerned? and what is placed in the place of the daily sacrifice?

These three questions are not hard to answer at all.....

1) The desolates are Jews and anyone without Christ Jesus. Jesus identified Jews without him as desolates.

2) The daily sacrifice from the cross of Christ at Calvary and until his coming is directly tied to the Lamb of God offered as the sin offering once and for all, to atone for the sins of the world.

3) The daily sacrifice which accounts for the Grace of God is removed and replaced by the end of days Abomination of Desolation.

Once we understand that we are under Grace and that only the New Covenant exists as far as God and His Christ is concerned, then we can rest assured that the daily sacrifice is the blood of Christ atoning for our daily sins. After all the blood of Christ is accounted as the daily sacrifice for the last 2000 years and counting.

I will now highlight your words in red below...

In the example of the Jews rebuilding the Temple and practicing the Law in the superseded manner that denies the coming and presence of the Messiah; this would be an abomination.

Let me qualify your statement, that is, if before the Lamb of God was offered, God required the blood sacrifices under the old covenant temple centred worship and under the levitical priesthood, then after the Lamb of God was offered, there is no more offering of blood to God the Father, because he accomplished the reconciliation path through the blood of his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who is the High Priest, then, today and forever more, because he has indestructible life. Under the Levitical priesthood the high priest died and his position was transferred to another in line and so on and so on. With Jesus Christ, he became our Crowned Monarch, the Kingly High Priest Melchizedek, who is the anointed most Holy of Daniel's 70week prophesy.

What Antiochus IV Epiphanes did was remove the sacrifices pertaining to the old covenant mosaic law and replaced it with the abomination of desolation.

The parallel prophesy, leading to the coming of Jesus Christ, will have the removal of Grace, that is the blood of the Lamb of God, which is our daily sacrifice under the new covenant, with the curse of the Mosaic law. The Abomination that will be reinstituted will be the final insult to God the Father and his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, by placing animal blood in place of his blood. This vile act committed by the desolate rabinnical without Christ false religion under the levitical priesthood, will be the Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the new covenant age. This false religion parallels the pagan religion of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, by placing an abomination in place of Jesus Christ.

In the clip it mentions the importance that all the world will be deceived by the horn or kingdom that commits this final Abomination as far as God is concerned. This horn that is worshipped today is an earthly kingdom calling itself Israel. Jesus foresaw this abomination that is established where it should not have been.

Many none Christian Jewish rabinnical authority who are Torah and Talmud observers were against the establishing of Israel, because they knew that if they did this prior to the coming of Messiah, they would get a beating of beatings from God. It would be God who sends armies to destroy the desolates who deceived the world into replacing his sons blood with the blood of animals.

Here are the Jewish rabbinical authority.....

Famous Jewish Commentators and Legal Authorities

Rashi (1040-1105)
The prayer “G-d of salvations, in the four oaths” is a reference to the oaths of the Song of Songs. We ask G-d: Save us, for You have made us swear not to rebel against the nations, and we are keeping your oath in exile and bearing the yoke of exile. (Commentary to the Prayerbook)

Maimonides (1135-1204)
The messiah will gather in the Jews from exile. Whoever does not believe in him is denying the Torah, which says (Deuteronomy 30:3), “The L-rd your G-d will restore your exiles and have mercy on you.” (Laws of Kings 11:1)

When King Solomon, peace be upon him, made known with his holy inspiration that this nation, when it is sunk into exile, will try to arouse itself not at its proper time, and they will die because of this and travails will come upon them – he warned against this, and made an oath against this in an allegorical way, and said (Song of Songs 2:7), ‘I adjure you, daughters of Jerusalem…’ (Letter to the Jews of Yemen)

Rabbi Yishaya ben Eliyahu Di Trani (c. 1300)
Living in the Holy Land is a meritorious act; nevertheless, the Jewish people must not all go up together with a strong hand, in an act similar to the ingathering of the exiles, for they are not permitted to hasten the end, until the Creator hastens our redemption. (Piskei Riaz, Kesubos 13:8)

Rabbi Bachya ben Asher (d. 1340)
We must follow in the footsteps of the Patriarchs and prepare ourselves to approach the gentiles with gifts, with soft speech and with prayer before G-d. But war is impossible, for G-d made the Jewish people swear not to wage wars against the nations. (Commentary to Genesis 32:3)

Rabbi Yitzchak ben Sheishes (1326-1408)
There is no doubt that traveling to the Holy Land is a meritorious act…but now, one of the Three Oaths G-d made the Jewish people swear is not to go up as a wall. (Responsa of the Rivash, Chapter 101)

Rabbi Shlomo ben Shimon Duran (1400-1467)
During exile, living in the Holy Land is not a general commandment for all Jews, but on the contrary it is forbidden, as the Talmud says in the last chapter of Kesubos, that this is one of the oaths that G-d made the Jews swear: that they not hurry the end and not go up as a wall. Go and see what happened to the children of Ephraim when they hurried the end! (Responsa of the Rashbash, Chapter 2)

Rabbi Isaac Abarbanel (1437-1508)
Abraham feared that his descendants would rise up to leave the exile before the time set by G-d...we must bear the yoke of the exile and live under the nations until the time of the End. (Yeshuos Meshicho v. 1, p. 11b)

The Maharal of Prague (1520-1609)
G-d made the Jewish people swear by the heavens and the earth not to leave exile before the time. For just as the heavens and the earth keep to the order of nature decreed by G-d, never changing, in the same way the Jewish people must keep the order of exile decreed by G-d. And just as the heavens and earth, if they were to change their nature and order, would bring havoc and destruction to the world, so too if the Jewish people leaves the exile decreed on them by G-d it would mean destruction for them, G-d forbid. Therefore they must not violate the decree. (Netzach Yisroel, Chapter 24)

Rabbi Chaim Ben Attar (1696-1743)
The verse “I will scatter you among the nations” refers to the first oath, which mandates that the Jews remain scattered and not immigrate as a wall, with a strong hand, to resettle the Holy Land. (Ohr Hachaim Commentary to Leviticus 26:32-33)

Rabbi Yonasan Eybeschutz (1690-1764)
The Jewish people cries out to the nations, "Do not awaken an early ingathering of Israel! Even if all the Jews are ready to go to Jerusalem, and all the nations agree, still, G-d forbid that I should go there!” (Ahavas Yonasan)

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (1808-1888)
When the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times of an important fact; namely, that they must never again attempt to restore their national independence by their own power; they were to entrust their future as a nation solely to Divine Providence. (Commentary on the Prayerbook, p. 703)

Here is the link.....

Where in the Torah does it say Jews can't have a state? | True Torah Jews

 

[sparow]

Firstly, to your question of Jews without Christ Jesus abandoning God, well this is not a logical question, because how could Jews without Christ Jesus have God in the first place?

Jesus said......

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John would say......

No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

So the Jews without Christ Jesus have not God also. This means that they are cast out as desolates, having no part in the commonwealth of heavenly New Jerusalem.

Jesus would say......

Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This meant that Jesus called the apostate Pharisical Jewish religion as a desolate house without God.

The only way, that they would be accepted as God's people, is as Jesus said....

For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

I watched the video clip and agree on the fulfilment of the initial prophesy concerning the abomination of desolation before Christ's Olivet Discourse, when Antiochus IV Epiphanes stopped the sacrifices and installed an abomination of desolation in place of where the temple sacrifice ought to have been done, before Messiah came and was to be the Lamb of God to do away the sins of the world.

My disagreement is on who the desolates are? and what the daily sacrifice is as far as God the Father is concerned? and what is placed in the place of the daily sacrifice?

These three questions are not hard to answer at all.....

1) The desolates are Jews and anyone without Christ Jesus. Jesus identified Jews without him as desolates.

2) The daily sacrifice from the cross of Christ at Calvary and until his coming is directly tied to the Lamb of God offered as the sin offering once and for all, to atone for the sins of the world.

3) The daily sacrifice which accounts for the Grace of God is removed and replaced by the end of days Abomination of Desolation.

Once we understand that we are under Grace and that only the New Covenant exists as far as God and His Christ is concerned, then we can rest assured that the daily sacrifice is the blood of Christ atoning for our daily sins. After all the blood of Christ is accounted as the daily sacrifice for the last 2000 years and counting.

I will now highlight your words in red below...

In the example of the Jews rebuilding the Temple and practicing the Law in the superseded manner that denies the coming and presence of the Messiah; this would be an abomination.

Let me qualify your statement, that is, if before the Lamb of God was offered, God required the blood sacrifices under the old covenant temple centred worship and under the levitical priesthood, then after the Lamb of God was offered, there is no more offering of blood to God the Father, because he accomplished the reconciliation path through the blood of his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who is the High Priest, then, today and forever more, because he has indestructible life. Under the Levitical priesthood the high priest died and his position was transferred to another in line and so on and so on. With Jesus Christ, he became our Crowned Monarch, the Kingly High Priest Melchizedek, who is the anointed most Holy of Daniel's 70week prophesy.

What Antiochus IV Epiphanes did was remove the sacrifices pertaining to the old covenant mosaic law and replaced it with the abomination of desolation.

The parallel prophesy, leading to the coming of Jesus Christ, will have the removal of Grace, that is the blood of the Lamb of God, which is our daily sacrifice under the new covenant, with the curse of the Mosaic law. The Abomination that will be reinstituted will be the final insult to God the Father and his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, by placing animal blood in place of his blood. This vile act committed by the desolate rabinnical without Christ false religion under the levitical priesthood, will be the Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the new covenant age. This false religion parallels the pagan religion of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, by placing an abomination in place of Jesus Christ.

In the clip it mentions the importance that all the world will be deceived by the horn or kingdom that commits this final Abomination as far as God is concerned. This horn that is worshipped today is an earthly kingdom calling itself Israel. Jesus foresaw this abomination that is established where it should not have been.

Many none Christian Jewish rabinnical authority who are Torah and Talmud observers were against the establishing of Israel, because they knew that if they did this prior to the coming of Messiah, they would get a beating of beatings from God. It would be God who sends armies to destroy the desolates who deceived the world into replacing his sons blood with the blood of animals.

Here are the Jewish rabbinical authority.....

Famous Jewish Commentators and Legal Authorities

Rashi (1040-1105)
The prayer “G-d of salvations, in the four oaths” is a reference to the oaths of the Song of Songs. We ask G-d: Save us, for You have made us swear not to rebel against the nations, and we are keeping your oath in exile and bearing the yoke of exile. (Commentary to the Prayerbook)

Maimonides (1135-1204)
The messiah will gather in the Jews from exile. Whoever does not believe in him is denying the Torah, which says (Deuteronomy 30:3), “The L-rd your G-d will restore your exiles and have mercy on you.” (Laws of Kings 11:1)

When King Solomon, peace be upon him, made known with his holy inspiration that this nation, when it is sunk into exile, will try to arouse itself not at its proper time, and they will die because of this and travails will come upon them – he warned against this, and made an oath against this in an allegorical way, and said (Song of Songs 2:7), ‘I adjure you, daughters of Jerusalem…’ (Letter to the Jews of Yemen)

Rabbi Yishaya ben Eliyahu Di Trani (c. 1300)
Living in the Holy Land is a meritorious act; nevertheless, the Jewish people must not all go up together with a strong hand, in an act similar to the ingathering of the exiles, for they are not permitted to hasten the end, until the Creator hastens our redemption. (Piskei Riaz, Kesubos 13:8)

Rabbi Bachya ben Asher (d. 1340)
We must follow in the footsteps of the Patriarchs and prepare ourselves to approach the gentiles with gifts, with soft speech and with prayer before G-d. But war is impossible, for G-d made the Jewish people swear not to wage wars against the nations. (Commentary to Genesis 32:3)

Rabbi Yitzchak ben Sheishes (1326-1408)
There is no doubt that traveling to the Holy Land is a meritorious act…but now, one of the Three Oaths G-d made the Jewish people swear is not to go up as a wall. (Responsa of the Rivash, Chapter 101)

Rabbi Shlomo ben Shimon Duran (1400-1467)
During exile, living in the Holy Land is not a general commandment for all Jews, but on the contrary it is forbidden, as the Talmud says in the last chapter of Kesubos, that this is one of the oaths that G-d made the Jews swear: that they not hurry the end and not go up as a wall. Go and see what happened to the children of Ephraim when they hurried the end! (Responsa of the Rashbash, Chapter 2)

Rabbi Isaac Abarbanel (1437-1508)
Abraham feared that his descendants would rise up to leave the exile before the time set by G-d...we must bear the yoke of the exile and live under the nations until the time of the End. (Yeshuos Meshicho v. 1, p. 11b)

The Maharal of Prague (1520-1609)
G-d made the Jewish people swear by the heavens and the earth not to leave exile before the time. For just as the heavens and the earth keep to the order of nature decreed by G-d, never changing, in the same way the Jewish people must keep the order of exile decreed by G-d. And just as the heavens and earth, if they were to change their nature and order, would bring havoc and destruction to the world, so too if the Jewish people leaves the exile decreed on them by G-d it would mean destruction for them, G-d forbid. Therefore they must not violate the decree. (Netzach Yisroel, Chapter 24)

Rabbi Chaim Ben Attar (1696-1743)
The verse “I will scatter you among the nations” refers to the first oath, which mandates that the Jews remain scattered and not immigrate as a wall, with a strong hand, to resettle the Holy Land. (Ohr Hachaim Commentary to Leviticus 26:32-33)

Rabbi Yonasan Eybeschutz (1690-1764)
The Jewish people cries out to the nations, "Do not awaken an early ingathering of Israel! Even if all the Jews are ready to go to Jerusalem, and all the nations agree, still, G-d forbid that I should go there!” (Ahavas Yonasan)

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (1808-1888)
When the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times of an important fact; namely, that they must never again attempt to restore their national independence by their own power; they were to entrust their future as a nation solely to Divine Providence. (Commentary on the Prayerbook, p. 703)

Here is the link.....

Where in the Torah does it say Jews can't have a state? | True Torah Jews

I don't handle long posts well, but I'll give it a shot.

So far, you are applying logic to semantics. ""So the Jews without Christ Jesus have not God also""; I would have said, "So THOSE Jews without Christ have not the Father"; Jesus said He came not to the righteous but to the lost sheep; here He acknowledges the righteous who had kept the covenant; other wise there would not be a covenant to confirm; the covenant requires two parties.

Judaism today is the continuation of the Pharisaic system; without a confirmed covenant; without the blood of Christ.

I think we agree that the desolation is the absence of God. But abominations were many before the pig in the temple; for example the Jews had bowed the knee and had forsaken God before the pig; what I notice is that the Jews were not prepared to fight to the death for the kingdom of God but 200 years later they fought to the death against the Romans for their little patch of dirt; I believe God would have left before the pig.

Jesus was the daily sacrifice, the lamb of God since the foundation; the sheep were substitutes or surrogates for the Lamb of God.

On your second question: the daily sacrifice is for sins committed in ignorance. the shedding of Blood for the remission of sin not in ignorance but after repentance and is the covenant confirmed.

Being a Historist and not a futurist I believe much of Revelation is history and I am not sure about future abominations of desolation; if the desolation is the absence of God then is this also the abomination; is the abomination the cause of the desolation; where is the Holy place that is to host the abomination; it cannot be any new thing built by the Jews because only God can make a place Holy; after it's destruction the sanctuary was trodden under foot for 1260 years; 1260 years is the time from the first Islamic shrine until the six day war and has continued to stand there before the Holy Place for another fifty years. Matt 24 is not a parable and reading from verse 15 there are only minutes to escape, so the abomination that makes desolate must appear suddenly.

If we take Jesus literally the the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel had nothing to do with Antiochus IV Epiphanes. I can handle parallel prophesies but I do not expect my understanding to be exclusively correct or exclusively incorrect.

The only time one can apply fine detail to prophesy is when it becomes history. because Daniel mentions 2300 days that could mean 2300 years, the end could be 300 years away, but I believe it could come apon us so fast we will be stunned.

 

[miknik5]

ALL true Christ=followers should be offended by:

1. anti-christ
2. beast
3. Man of lawlessness
4. abomination of desolation

They are all the same spiritual "dude",

should they be offended at the rebuilding of a physical temple and the reinstatement of animal sacrifices in that temple?

 

[miknik5]

We are supposed to be the temple of God, not made with human hands. His spirit comes to dwell within if we have genuine faith. Those who do not follow the LORD God follow the desires of their own hearts. Evil is good and good thought of as evil. That person is lord of their own life and the temple is profaned and defiled...

Some scripture to ponder as we see the state the world is in and how it may relate to the abomination of desolation being revealed.

1 John 4:3

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

47 But Solomon built him an house.

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 17:24

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Would you say that a Christian, born of HIS SPIRIT, would have a part in building the earthly temple or encouraging the unbelieving Jews to do so?

 

[Aseyesee]

There is always the minds eye; we should consider who fled and when they fled; by the end of the third centaury the church had fled to the wilderness leaving the Pagans under the rule of Rome.

The abomination in the garden was when Satan said, "God didn't really mean what He said, you will not surely die." The is what Satan still says and is still believed.

It is the continius theme isn't it, an image that provokes God to jealousy (in Ezekeils words).

The end of the world as just an event and not a person distracts us from our relationship in the moment that is called now.

One honest look at the word image in the OT should cause one (by what the temple had by these writings become) to look inward, where judgment begins.

 

[miknik5]

Firstly, to your question of Jews without Christ Jesus abandoning God, well this is not a logical question, because how could Jews without Christ Jesus have God in the first place?

Jesus said......

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John would say......

No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

So the Jews without Christ Jesus have not God also. This means that they are cast out as desolates, having no part in the commonwealth of heavenly New Jerusalem.

Jesus would say......

Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This meant that Jesus called the apostate Pharisical Jewish religion as a desolate house without God.

The only way, that they would be accepted as God's people, is as Jesus said....

For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

I watched the video clip and agree on the fulfilment of the initial prophesy concerning the abomination of desolation before Christ's Olivet Discourse, when Antiochus IV Epiphanes stopped the sacrifices and installed an abomination of desolation in place of where the temple sacrifice ought to have been done, before Messiah came and was to be the Lamb of God to do away the sins of the world.

My disagreement is on who the desolates are? and what the daily sacrifice is as far as God the Father is concerned? and what is placed in the place of the daily sacrifice?

These three questions are not hard to answer at all.....

1) The desolates are Jews and anyone without Christ Jesus. Jesus identified Jews without him as desolates.

2) The daily sacrifice from the cross of Christ at Calvary and until his coming is directly tied to the Lamb of God offered as the sin offering once and for all, to atone for the sins of the world.

3) The daily sacrifice which accounts for the Grace of God is removed and replaced by the end of days Abomination of Desolation.

Once we understand that we are under Grace and that only the New Covenant exists as far as God and His Christ is concerned, then we can rest assured that the daily sacrifice is the blood of Christ atoning for our daily sins. After all the blood of Christ is accounted as the daily sacrifice for the last 2000 years and counting.

I will now highlight your words in red below...

In the example of the Jews rebuilding the Temple and practicing the Law in the superseded manner that denies the coming and presence of the Messiah; this would be an abomination.

Let me qualify your statement, that is, if before the Lamb of God was offered, God required the blood sacrifices under the old covenant temple centred worship and under the levitical priesthood, then after the Lamb of God was offered, there is no more offering of blood to God the Father, because he accomplished the reconciliation path through the blood of his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who is the High Priest, then, today and forever more, because he has indestructible life. Under the Levitical priesthood the high priest died and his position was transferred to another in line and so on and so on. With Jesus Christ, he became our Crowned Monarch, the Kingly High Priest Melchizedek, who is the anointed most Holy of Daniel's 70week prophesy.

What Antiochus IV Epiphanes did was remove the sacrifices pertaining to the old covenant mosaic law and replaced it with the abomination of desolation.

The parallel prophesy, leading to the coming of Jesus Christ, will have the removal of Grace, that is the blood of the Lamb of God, which is our daily sacrifice under the new covenant, with the curse of the Mosaic law. The Abomination that will be reinstituted will be the final insult to God the Father and his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, by placing animal blood in place of his blood. This vile act committed by the desolate rabinnical without Christ false religion under the levitical priesthood, will be the Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the new covenant age. This false religion parallels the pagan religion of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, by placing an abomination in place of Jesus Christ.

In the clip it mentions the importance that all the world will be deceived by the horn or kingdom that commits this final Abomination as far as God is concerned. This horn that is worshipped today is an earthly kingdom calling itself Israel. Jesus foresaw this abomination that is established where it should not have been.

Many none Christian Jewish rabinnical authority who are Torah and Talmud observers were against the establishing of Israel, because they knew that if they did this prior to the coming of Messiah, they would get a beating of beatings from God. It would be God who sends armies to destroy the desolates who deceived the world into replacing his sons blood with the blood of animals.

Here are the Jewish rabbinical authority.....

Famous Jewish Commentators and Legal Authorities

Rashi (1040-1105)
The prayer “G-d of salvations, in the four oaths” is a reference to the oaths of the Song of Songs. We ask G-d: Save us, for You have made us swear not to rebel against the nations, and we are keeping your oath in exile and bearing the yoke of exile. (Commentary to the Prayerbook)

Maimonides (1135-1204)
The messiah will gather in the Jews from exile. Whoever does not believe in him is denying the Torah, which says (Deuteronomy 30:3), “The L-rd your G-d will restore your exiles and have mercy on you.” (Laws of Kings 11:1)

When King Solomon, peace be upon him, made known with his holy inspiration that this nation, when it is sunk into exile, will try to arouse itself not at its proper time, and they will die because of this and travails will come upon them – he warned against this, and made an oath against this in an allegorical way, and said (Song of Songs 2:7), ‘I adjure you, daughters of Jerusalem…’ (Letter to the Jews of Yemen)

Rabbi Yishaya ben Eliyahu Di Trani (c. 1300)
Living in the Holy Land is a meritorious act; nevertheless, the Jewish people must not all go up together with a strong hand, in an act similar to the ingathering of the exiles, for they are not permitted to hasten the end, until the Creator hastens our redemption. (Piskei Riaz, Kesubos 13:8)

Rabbi Bachya ben Asher (d. 1340)
We must follow in the footsteps of the Patriarchs and prepare ourselves to approach the gentiles with gifts, with soft speech and with prayer before G-d. But war is impossible, for G-d made the Jewish people swear not to wage wars against the nations. (Commentary to Genesis 32:3)

Rabbi Yitzchak ben Sheishes (1326-1408)
There is no doubt that traveling to the Holy Land is a meritorious act…but now, one of the Three Oaths G-d made the Jewish people swear is not to go up as a wall. (Responsa of the Rivash, Chapter 101)

Rabbi Shlomo ben Shimon Duran (1400-1467)
During exile, living in the Holy Land is not a general commandment for all Jews, but on the contrary it is forbidden, as the Talmud says in the last chapter of Kesubos, that this is one of the oaths that G-d made the Jews swear: that they not hurry the end and not go up as a wall. Go and see what happened to the children of Ephraim when they hurried the end! (Responsa of the Rashbash, Chapter 2)

Rabbi Isaac Abarbanel (1437-1508)
Abraham feared that his descendants would rise up to leave the exile before the time set by G-d...we must bear the yoke of the exile and live under the nations until the time of the End. (Yeshuos Meshicho v. 1, p. 11b)

The Maharal of Prague (1520-1609)
G-d made the Jewish people swear by the heavens and the earth not to leave exile before the time. For just as the heavens and the earth keep to the order of nature decreed by G-d, never changing, in the same way the Jewish people must keep the order of exile decreed by G-d. And just as the heavens and earth, if they were to change their nature and order, would bring havoc and destruction to the world, so too if the Jewish people leaves the exile decreed on them by G-d it would mean destruction for them, G-d forbid. Therefore they must not violate the decree. (Netzach Yisroel, Chapter 24)

Rabbi Chaim Ben Attar (1696-1743)
The verse “I will scatter you among the nations” refers to the first oath, which mandates that the Jews remain scattered and not immigrate as a wall, with a strong hand, to resettle the Holy Land. (Ohr Hachaim Commentary to Leviticus 26:32-33)

Rabbi Yonasan Eybeschutz (1690-1764)
The Jewish people cries out to the nations, "Do not awaken an early ingathering of Israel! Even if all the Jews are ready to go to Jerusalem, and all the nations agree, still, G-d forbid that I should go there!” (Ahavas Yonasan)

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (1808-1888)
When the uprising led by Bar Kochba proved a disastrous error, it became essential that the Jewish people be reminded for all times of an important fact; namely, that they must never again attempt to restore their national independence by their own power; they were to entrust their future as a nation solely to Divine Providence. (Commentary on the Prayerbook, p. 703)

Here is the link.....

Where in the Torah does it say Jews can't have a state? | True Torah Jews

They don't understand that when GOD gives them the TRUTH of JESUS they will when they believe in HIM be rightly gathered in THE TRUE ISRAEL of GOD

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Would you say that a Christian, born of HIS SPIRIT, would have a part in building the earthly temple or encouraging the unbelieving Jews to do so?

No I do not. God is not looking for a new, physical temple. However, that does not mean there won't be a physical temple built as many still look for a physical kingdom and to build a city in this world. Our only hope is not of THIS world. Those IN Christ are sojourners and ambassadors of another kingdom, not of this earth.

Something else to keep in mind..."Daily sacrifice" is not what was written in the original texts of scripture. In the KJV, all words in brackets have been inserted by the translators, but not in the original texts. So, "the daily sacrifice" should say "the daily".

Daneil 8:11 without the inserted words: Yea, he magnified ()even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily() was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

EDIT: All good Christians should be encouraging Jews to find Jesus Christ, The Messiah.

 

[miknik5]

No I do not. God is not looking for a new, physical temple. However, that does not mean there won't be a physical temple built as many still look for a physical kingdom and to build a city in this world. Our only hope is not of THIS world. Those IN Christ are sojourners and ambassadors of another kingdom, not of this earth.

Something else to keep in mind..."Daily sacrifice" is not written what was written in the original texts of scripture. In the KJV, all words in brackets have been inserted by the translators, but not in the original texts. So, "the daily sacrifice" should say "the daily".

Daneil 8:11 without the inserted words: Yea, he magnified ()even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily() was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

EDIT: All good Christians should be encouraging Jews to find Jesus Christ, The Messiah.

Yes and as you have said the temple will be rebuilt and with it they in ignorance will reinstate animal sacrifices

I agree with the opening paragraph and what "the times said" posted

 

[The Times]

I don't handle long posts well, but I'll give it a shot.

So far, you are applying logic to semantics. ""So the Jews without Christ Jesus have not God also""; I would have said, "So THOSE Jews without Christ have not the Father"; Jesus said He came not to the righteous but to the lost sheep; here He acknowledges the righteous who had kept the covenant; other wise there would not be a covenant to confirm; the covenant requires two parties.

Judaism today is the continuation of the Pharisaic system; without a confirmed covenant; without the blood of Christ.

I think we agree that the desolation is the absence of God. But abominations were many before the pig in the temple; for example the Jews had bowed the knee and had forsaken God before the pig; what I notice is that the Jews were not prepared to fight to the death for the kingdom of God but 200 years later they fought to the death against the Romans for their little patch of dirt; I believe God would have left before the pig.

Jesus was the daily sacrifice, the lamb of God since the foundation; the sheep were substitutes or surrogates for the Lamb of God.

On your second question: the daily sacrifice is for sins committed in ignorance. the shedding of Blood for the remission of sin not in ignorance but after repentance and is the covenant confirmed.

Being a Historist and not a futurist I believe much of Revelation is history and I am not sure about future abominations of desolation; if the desolation is the absence of God then is this also the abomination; is the abomination the cause of the desolation; where is the Holy place that is to host the abomination; it cannot be any new thing built by the Jews because only God can make a place Holy; after it's destruction the sanctuary was trodden under foot for 1260 years; 1260 years is the time from the first Islamic shrine until the six day war and has continued to stand there before the Holy Place for another fifty years. Matt 24 is not a parable and reading from verse 15 there are only minutes to escape, so the abomination that makes desolate must appear suddenly.

If we take Jesus literally the the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel had nothing to do with Antiochus IV Epiphanes. I can handle parallel prophesies but I do not expect my understanding to be exclusively correct or exclusively incorrect.

The only time one can apply fine detail to prophesy is when it becomes history. because Daniel mentions 2300 days that could mean 2300 years, the end could be 300 years away, but I believe it could come apon us so fast we will be stunned.

Historic events certainly do put us in a better perspective and vantage point to comment with confidence after the fact, since we have the better hindsight as a result of past events as our evidence. If we solely depend on this approach we can fall into the complacency of negating future events altogether, because one is deterred from Speculating. What I am saying is this, that prophesy would be meaningless to give in the first place, if it were only for the benefit of hindsight after the fact, however many times throughout scripture prophesy is given to warn of up and coming events, so that people do not get caught unawares and fall into complacency.

Having said all the above, I truly believe that end day events will involve the Jewish people once again, yet this time, it will be a shaking paralleled to no other historically speaking, neither one to come afterwards. After all, scripture does make such declarations....

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 12:1)

If we take eschatological study from a historicist perspective, then we need to take in all historical events past. We can discern from Daniel verse above that this event spoken of is a time of Jacob's trouble never paralleled before, since there was a nation called Israel, as it relates to Daniel's people, the Jews. Notice in this final chapter, we see the book of life being opened at the end, in the same way it is described in Revelation 20:12......

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the bookof life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The reason why I quoted the historical rabbinical authorities, is to highlight that a nation Israel has once again risen, that leads to the possibility of a climactic end time Abomination that maketh desolate and that lends itself to the possibility that this time around it will be the most devasting one to hit the sons of Jacob and one that would possibly fulfill the prophesy of Daniel 12:1, that has yet to be fulfilled the way that it was told to Daniel.

Notice the message to Daniel is that after this final event, Daniel's people as a race will finally come as the 11th hour workmen to be delivered towards the end of the great harvest of God.

I know much of what I said is speculative, because from a historicist point of view, there is no benefit of hindsight to go by as far as past historic events are concerned, but if we at least consider that the pieces are all in play and there is that possibility of another abomination of desolation that many will embrace, in place of God the Holy Ghost who dwells in the born again believers.

 

[The Times]

They don't understand that when GOD gives them the TRUTH of JESUS they will when they believe in HIM be rightly gathered in THE TRUE ISRAEL of GOD

That is right, I believe that and it would point to Daniel 12:1. Yet as an earthly nation they will be totally destroyed, as Jesus would say flee from Jerusalem when you see the abomination of desolation, yet as a Jewish race they will come in as the 11th hour workmen within the great commission context and be delivered before the end of the world and the brilliant coming of Christ Jesus.

 

[The Times]

The sons of Jacob will be found standing for Jesus Christ when they go through a time of trouble like no other historically speaking.

Personally I would be happy and glad to witness the hearts of the sons of Jacob to turn to Christ Jesus, if God will allow me to live to see the day and for God to use me as his instrument to help them overcome their blindness.

 

[miknik5]

That is right, I believe that and it would point to Daniel 12:1. Yet as an earthly nation they will be totally destroyed, as Jesus would say flee from Jerusalem when you see the abomination of desolation, yet as a Jewish race they will come in as the 11th hour workmen within the great commission context and be delivered before the end of the world and the brilliant coming of Christ Jesus.

Only those who are not the "violent men of the covenant"
Only those who do not go out
Only those whom the craftsmen will put a mark on whose inner thoughts and heart are appalled by all the atrocities which will come when HE who holds things back is taken out of the way

When HE temporarily (I was detained 21 days and no one helped ME but Michael, the prince of your people as per Daniel) hides HIS FACE from Jacobs troubles

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Only those who are not the "violent men of the covenant"
Only those who do not go out
Only those whom the craftsmen will put a mark on whose inner thoughts and heart are appalled by all the atrocities which will come when HE who holds things back is taken out of the way

When HE temporarily (I was detained 21 days and no one helped ME but Michael, the prince of your people as per Daniel) hides HIS FACE from Jacobs troubles

Jacob...Israel became his new name after he endured a night of battle with the LORD God until DAY light came.

 

[The Times]

Jacob...Israel became his new name after he endured a night of battle with the LORD God until DAY light came.

Interesting thoughts.

 

[The Times]

Only those who are not the "violent men of the covenant"
Only those who do not go out
Only those whom the craftsmen will put a mark on whose inner thoughts and heart are appalled by all the atrocities which will come when HE who holds things back is taken out of the way

When HE temporarily (I was detained 21 days and no one helped ME but Michael, the prince of your people as per Daniel) hides HIS FACE from Jacobs troubles

Interesting thoughts.

 

[miknik5]

Jacob...Israel became his new name after he endured a night of battle with the LORD God until DAY light came.

And yet not all who are of Israel are of ISRAEL

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

And yet not all who are of Israel are of ISRAEL

In context of the Time of Jacob's Trouble Flesh) and Israel (spiritual) ..

 

[miknik5]

In context of the Time of Jacob's Trouble Flesh) and Israel (spiritual) ..

With that statement then all of Israel is ISRAEL

But that is not what the WORD of GOD says

If trouble is going to come upon the world to test all flesh and only for the elect will HE shorten the days, and only those whose names are found in the book of LIFE will be saved is all flesh (Jacob) called and renamed of GOD, spiritual (ISRAEL)?

 

[miknik5]

Misplaced post

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

With that statement then all of Israel is ISRAEL

But that is not what the WORD of GOD says

If trouble is going to come upon the world to test all flesh and only for the elect will HE shorten the days, and only those whose names are found in the book of LIFE will be saved is all flesh (Jacob) called and renamed of GOD, spiritual (ISRAEL)?

I was speaking to the trouble that the earthy nation of Israel is having...spiritually speaking, they are still Jacob, else they would receive the blessing instead of ...what they been getting.