The A & P

[Saint Steven]

God created him perfect- without sin just like adam.

did God created adam a sinner ?

God created all that exists in our universe. Nothing in his creation can change that fact by what they do. Lucifer and Adam fell. That does not change the fact that God created them. They and everything else are a part of the whole creation. The whole creation that God will restore. (Revelation 21:5)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Lucifer, of course.
Are you going to claim that because he fell that he sudden was no longer God's creation?
Adam and Eve fell. (obviously) Were they then no longer God's creation? Along with ALL their ancestors? (including us)

Saint Steven said: ↑
God didn't create Satan? Who did?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

God created all that exists in our universe. Nothing in his creation can change that fact by what they do. Lucifer and Adam fell. That does not change the fact that God created them. They and everything else are a part of the whole creation. The whole creation that God will restore. (Revelation 21:5)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Lucifer, of course.
Are you going to claim that because he fell that he sudden was no longer God's creation?
Adam and Eve fell. (obviously) Were they then no longer God's creation? Along with ALL their ancestors? (including us)

Saint Steven said: ↑
God didn't create Satan? Who did?

So you think God created sin ?

 

[Saint Steven]

So you think God created sin ?

Sin is not a created being. So, no God did not create sin as part of his whole creation.
Free will "creates" the opportunity for sin. God can give a command that can be violated due to free will. And that violation is what we, and God, calls sin.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

 

[Saint Steven]

Dear F.L.: you poor lonely old man, the A & P has no interest among us on C.F.

The mighty Prince-Leader who pioneers a new dimension for all of us, continues His penetration into every heart & mind & spirit until the all has been accomplished in every fine detail!

"He heals up the brokenhearted & heals up ALL their wounds."

At twenty pages now, it was just a late bloomer. Like you, friend.
The mighty oak doesn't grow overnight, you know. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

At twenty pages now, it was just a late bloomer. Like you, friend.
The mighty oak doesn't grow overnight, you know. - lol

Your post reminded me of this scripture.
(Oops. Quoted myself instead of FL - lol)

Luke 4:16-22
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

 

[Charlie24]

Your post reminded me of this scripture.
(Oops. Quoted myself instead of FL - lol)

Luke 4:16-22
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

Jesus was quoting word for word Isa. 61.

If you notice He stopped at "to peach the acceptable year of the Lord" and closed the book. He did not finish the prophesy of Isaiah, "and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn."

He didn't finish it because it concerned His second coming when He would take vengeance, the wrath of Revelation, and then comfort all who mourn.

Interesting stuff!

 

[HopeInJesusOnly]

The sinners stay outside Heaven until they get a bath in the Lamb's blood, but are given all the encouragement - wash those robes and come get the free gift of the water of life, the party's inside, the Pearly Gates stand open.

This was fun to read and, oh, how I pray you are correct!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This was fun to read and, oh, how I pray you are correct!

That's our glorious hope, Hope. And praying for it allows us to partake in things above.

Perhaps there's a better reason for the Pearly Gates to always be open than that peace reigns and people cleansed of their sin are always welcome in to worship God...but I haven't heard it yet.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus was quoting word for word Isa. 61.

From post #386

Now that's a curious thing I have noticed. Compare below. (NIV translation)
It seems that every OT quote I find in the NT is a misquote. Not sure why.

Isaiah 61:1-2
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,

Luke 4:18-19
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

 

[Charlie24]

From post #386

Now that's a curious thing I have noticed. Compare below. (NIV translation)
It seems that every OT quote I find in the NT is a misquote. Not sure why.

Isaiah 61:1-2
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,

Luke 4:18-19
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Two different languages by two different writers.

It has the exact same meaning.

 

[FredVB]

Here are a collection of scriptures that raise some important questions.
A Damnationist will say that they are taken out of context and can't mean what they plainly say. Thus claiming there is NO scriptural support for Universal Restoration.
But I'll be happy to discuss any one of them.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 John 2:2, the context is 1 John, where the writer spells out that there are children of the light and those who are of the darkness, and they who say they have no sin are liars, those coming into the light confessing their sin are cleansed. The verse means that salvation is made available, that everyone in the world has the potential from God to come to the light, through Christ, turning from sin in repentance coming in faith to God for restoration that is with salvation. It is not assurance that all will do that.

Romans 11:32, God is always merciful. This mercy is not assurance that all will respond and be delivered.

Titus 2:11, God provides availability of salvation, still not assurance of it.

Romans 5:15-16, God's grace that was available through one man, Christ who was the incarnation, was to overflow to many. Still not to all.

18-19, many will be made righteous, not all of those in the world.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks for your detailed reply. I appreciate it. Of course, I have heard all these rebuttals before. Not too many years back, I would have responded this way as well.

Someone on this forum that I have a lot respect for told me they didn't believe in a forever burning hell. Of course, I wanted to know more, and fought tooth and claw to defend hell initially. Regurgitating all the common hell apologetics.

After further study, I began to see holes in the hell argument. Next thing I knew, I was defending UR. (Christian Universalism) Anyway... let's take a look at your offering...

1 John 2:2, the context is 1 John, where the writer spells out that there are children of the light and those who are of the darkness, and they who say they have no sin are liars, those coming into the light confessing their sin are cleansed. The verse means that salvation is made available, that everyone in the world has the potential from God to come to the light, through Christ, turning from sin in repentance coming in faith to God for restoration that is with salvation. It is not assurance that all will do that.

Is it fair to say that "children of the light and those who are of the darkness" are subsets of "the whole world?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, God is always merciful. This mercy is not assurance that all will respond and be delivered.

How does a forever burning hell with no hope of escape fit in that paradigm? What is merciful about an infinite punishment for a finite transgression? Hell didn't appear out of nowhere, it is part of God's creation. How could a God of mercy create such a sadistic consequence.

Titus 2:11, God provides availability of salvation, still not assurance of it.

How does that square with these scriptures?

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NIV
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 NIV
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13-14 NIV
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Romans 5:15-16, God's grace that was available through one man, Christ who was the incarnation, was to overflow to many. Still not to all.

You overlooked the all important word THE. It doesn't just say "many", it says "the many", which changes the meaning dramatically.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19, many will be made righteous, not all of those in the world.

Same thing here, "the many" not just "many". (vs 19) And what about vs 18?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are several more if you would like to continue.

 

[FineLinen]

[QUOTE="FredVB, post:
18-19, many will be made righteous, not all of those in the world.[/QUOTE]

The divine equation is equal on either side.

Many = many

Adam1 = many made sinners.

Last Adam = many made righteous.

 

[FineLinen]

That's our glorious hope, Hope. And praying for it allows us to partake in things above.

Perhaps there's a better reason for the Pearly Gates to always be open than that peace reigns and people cleansed of their sin are always welcome in to worship God...but I haven't heard it yet.

The entire purpose of ABBA is to bring us home to himself in spirit, tuned to the heavenly tuning fork.

At-one-ment

 

[Saint Steven]

The entire purpose of ABBA is to bring us home to himself in spirit, tuned to the heavenly tuning fork.

At-one-ment

I like that phrase, "... tuned to the heavenly tuning fork."

Made me think of "sympathetic vibration", as it is called.
I have observed it on a guitar. If I fret a D on the A string (5th fret),
The open (un-fretted) D string will vibrate in response to the same pitch. (note)
cc: @Shrewd Manager

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The entire purpose of ABBA is to bring us home to himself in spirit, tuned to the heavenly tuning fork.

At-one-ment

And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever." (Rev 5:13)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I like that phrase, "... tuned to the heavenly tuning fork."

Made me think of "sympathetic vibration", as it is called.
I have observed it on a guitar. If I fret a D on the A string (5th fret),
The open (un-fretted) D string will vibrate in response to the same pitch. (note)
cc: @Shrewd Manager

Here's a great short vid on the overtone series, probably nothing new to you, but it always blows me away - the miracle of harmony:

The Overtone Series (Truly) Explained

So as one note contains within it many others, so too the aleph and the tav contain the whole alphabet.

 

[FineLinen]

And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever." (Rev 5:13)

My brother, it is a joy seeing you again.

Every created thing (παν κτισμα). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω) -A.T. Robertson

The Father continues to bring his cherished plan in the Son of his love to fulfillment! We who join our Older Brother in sonship, join with Him & the angelic host in proclaiming it.

 

[FredVB]

Thanks for your detailed reply. I appreciate it. Of course, I have heard all these rebuttals before. Not too many years back, I would have responded this way as well.

Someone on this forum that I have a lot respect for told me they didn't believe in a forever burning hell. Of course, I wanted to know more, and fought tooth and claw to defend hell initially. Regurgitating all the common hell apologetics.

After further study, I began to see holes in the hell argument. Next thing I knew, I was defending UR. (Christian Universalism) Anyway... let's take a look at your offering...

Is it fair to say that "children of the light and those who are of the darkness" are subsets of "the whole world?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

How does a forever burning hell with no hope of escape fit in that paradigm? What is merciful about an infinite punishment for a finite transgression? Hell didn't appear out of nowhere, it is part of God's creation. How could a God of mercy create such a sadistic consequence.

How does that square with these scriptures?

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NIV
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 NIV
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13-14 NIV
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

You overlooked the all important word THE. It doesn't just say "many", it says "the many", which changes the meaning dramatically.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Same thing here, "the many" not just "many". (vs 19) And what about vs 18?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are several more if you would like to continue.

There is provision for hope of salvation with Christ's atoning sacrifice. It is available to all, it is sufficient. Still there are those remaining in darkness, and perishing while in darkness. It is clear they are not in Christ.

Original languages of scripture passages matter.

I don't show I believe there are those burning forever in hell. I see description in a book full of imagery, and that description of fire is imagery too. It does mean there will be misery forever, to the degree that it is completely fair justice, just as we would get, apart from Christ, who bore fair judgment for us, for any who would come to him and be restored to God through him.

many will be made righteous, not all of those in the world.

The divine equation is equal on either side.

Many = many

Adam1 = many made sinners.

Last Adam = many made righteous.

So you understand those cast to the lake of fire are in misery forever, the same duration the blessed are in bliss with God forever.

 

[Saint Steven]

It does mean there will be misery forever, to the degree that it is completely fair justice, just as we would get, apart from Christ, who bore fair judgment for us, for any who would come to him and be restored to God through him.

Does that make sense?

If Christ paid our eternal debt, why wasn't his payment eternal? Where's the justice in that?
Would you rather go to hell, or to the cross?