The A & P

[Saint Steven]

WOW! It's beyond me how anyone can read the Bible and surmise that Christ will save all of mankind.

I see a loving caring God in scripture but I also see a righteous God that must judge mankind for unrepentant sin.

Is this theory based on a second chance after death or what?

Welcome to the forum, it looks like you are new here. Based on the number of posts anyway.

I understand where you are coming from. I was in the same place a year ago or less. The Bible is a Damnationist text, so what else could one gather from it? And this is what we have been told all of our lives. But is it true?

As you say, we can see "a loving caring God in scripture". But where did this other god come from? That one that isn't "a loving caring God". Can that be the same person? And did Jesus come to save us from that god?

Is there a second chance? That assumes there is a first and only chance. In reality there is no chance. When Christ descended into the realm of the dead before his resurrection, did those he found there get "a second chance"? (to use your terminology)

Give these verses a look and see if something different than what we have been taught begins to emerge. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[FineLinen]

I'm very familiar with Rom. 8. It doesn't say all of mankind will be saved nor does it even hint of it.

FL you have a bad habit of taking scripture out of context without explanation!

Dear Charlie: I am thrilled to learn you are very familiar with Romans 8.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8 - King James Version

In that wonderful extension of the Letter we read the "whole of created life shall be delivered", not part of it, the whole radical all of pas.

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

 

[Charlie24]

Welcome to the forum, it looks like you are knew here. Based on the number of posts anyway.

I understand where you are coming from. I was in the same place a year ago or less. The Bible is a Damnationist text, so what else could one gather from it? And this is what we have been told all of our lives. But is it true?

As you say, we can see "a loving caring God in scripture". But where did this other god come from? That one that isn't "a loving caring God". Can that be the same person? And did Jesus come to save us from that god?

Is there a second chance? That assumes there is a first and only chance. In reality there is no chance. When Christ descended into the realm of the dead before his resurrection, did those he found there get "a second chance"? (to use your terminology)

Give these verses a look and see if something different than what we have been taught begins to emerge. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

If you read on in 1John 2:3-4, He who says he knows Him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

I can do this to all these scriptures. They are taken out of context.

 

[Charlie24]

Dear Charlie: I am thrilled to learn you are very familiar with Romans 8.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8 - King James Version

In that wonderful extension of the Letter we read the "whole of created life shall be delivered", not part of it, the whole radical all of pas.

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

What do you mean the extended letter?

 

[Saint Steven]

If you read on in 1John 2:3-4, He who says he knows Him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

I can do this to all these scriptures. They are taken out of context.

By saying they "are taken out of context" you infer that they do not mean what they plainly say. And you have in fact "explained them away" by inference rather than wondering what they mean and why they are there.

Am I missing something here? Are you missing something here? We can work through them one at a time if you like. Or if your mind is made up, I won't waste your time or mine. Thanks either way.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you read on in 1John 2:3-4, He who says he knows Him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

How does that diminish what is written in verse two?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Charlie24]

By saying they "are taken out of context" you infer that they do not mean what they plainly say. And you have in fact "explained them away" by inference rather than wondering what they mean and why they are there.

Am I missing something here? Are you missing something here? We can work through them one at a time if you like. Or if your mind is made up, I won't waste your time or mine. Thanks either way.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Let's move to the next one, Rom. 11:32. What is the context here!

Paul is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles both in unbelief and mercy shown to the gentiles for salvation will ultimately lead to salvation for the Jews. This is Gods condition of dealing with all of humanity.

This is not universal salvation. It is placing both Jew and Gentile on the same level. Both must come to Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

Let's move to the next one, Rom. 11:32. What is the context here!

Paul is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles both in unbelief and mercy shown to the gentiles for salvation will ultimately lead to salvation for the Jews. This is Gods condition of dealing with all of humanity.

This is not universal salvation. It is placing both Jew and Gentile on the same level. Both must come to Christ.

Well, that's some interesting logic you have going on there.
If the context places Jews and Gentiles on the same level, how can it not be a reference to universal salvation? Verse 32 says "everyone" and "all", does it not? (both Jews and Gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Charlie24]

How does that diminish what is written in verse two?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is proof that His sacrifice is for the sins world is not Gods fault if man chooses NOT to reap its benefits, its mans fault.

 

[Charlie24]

Well, that's some interesting logic you have going on there.
If the context places Jews and Gentiles on the same level, how can it not be a reference to universal salvation? Verse 32 says "everyone" and "all", does it not? (both Jews and Gentiles)

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

You must not have read the last paragraph.

 

[FineLinen]

Let's move to the next one, Rom. 11:32. What is the context here!

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11 - King James Version

Dear Charlie: It is exciting to know you desire the context of our Father's expressions.

In summing up Romans chapter 11 we read thus>>>

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

Would you like to discuss the scope of ta pante Charlie?

 

[Charlie24]

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11 - King James Version

FL, why can't you plainly give your explanation as everyone else does. You are always distant and vague.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is proof that His sacrifice is for the sins world is not Gods fault if man chooses NOT to reap its benefits, its mans fault.

Do you believe that?
That Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world?

If so, it seems that we have no context issues here. The verse means what it says and you agree with it. Thanks.

But then you are bringing something else to add to it from outside the context. So, which one of us is out of context here?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Saint Steven]

You must not have read the last paragraph.

How does the last paragraph diminish what is written here?

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Saint Steven]

FL, why can't you plainly give your explanation as everyone else does. You are always distant and vague.

1 Corinthians 12:12
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Do you believe that?
That Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world?

If so, it seems that we have no context issues here. The verse means what it says and you agree with it. Thanks.

But then you are bringing something else to add to it from outside the context. So, which one of us is out of context here?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I certainly do believe that John made it clear man has no excuse for not accepting Christ, He died for alll our sins, the whole world.

For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

What is the condition in this verse? Whosoever believes!!!

 

[Saint Steven]

I certainly do believe that John made it clear man has no excuse for not accepting Christ, He died for alll our sins, the whole world.

You are out of context again.
What does this scripture plainly say? And why do you refuse to accept it?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Saint Steven]

For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

What is the condition in this verse? Whosoever believes!!!

On that point we agree. Whosoever believes will have life. (everlasting/age-during life)

Since you are as fond of context as I am, let's look at verse 17. For what purpose was Christ sent into the world? Did he succeed, or fail miserably?

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

 

[Charlie24]

You are out of context again.
What does this scripture plainly say? And why do you refuse to accept it?

1 Corinthians 12:12
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.

Paul is referring to the body as the Church. Come on man, read the context of 1Cor. 12.

Is the whole of mankind a part of the True Church?

 

[FineLinen]

FL, why can't you plainly give your explanation as everyone else does. You are always distant and vague.

Dear Charlie: What was distant and vague in my response to you?

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11 - King James Version

It is exciting to know you desire the context of our Father's expressions.

In summing up Romans chapter 11 we read thus>>>

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

Would you like to discuss the scope of ta pante Charlie?