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The 2nd Coming of Christ ???

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by franklin, Aug 19, 2002.

  1. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    The New Testament contains more references to Jesus' second coming than to any other single subject:

     
  2. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Actually dr, the NT contains many references to the Parousia (arrival, presence), the fulfillment of the coming of Christ's kingdom and the beginning of the New Covenant eternal age in which He now reigns in the hearts of all believers.  The NC age that has no last days and is here and NOW!  Praise God!  This He fulfilled at the end of the OC age in AD70. 
     
  3. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    souljah, the only passage I noticed you posted was 2Peter 1:20.... as for my post not being clear, no problem, tell me what you think is unclear and I will go over it again, I was writting late last night possibly with one eye open!  So by all means, let me know what it is and we'll talk about it.   :)  
     
  4. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

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    Are you a preterist?
     
  5. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    If preterist is the label you want to use, that's fine, however, I like covenant eschatology as the position I hold to. I have come to believe covenant eschatology is biblical teaching as opposed to dispensationalism or futurism.  
     
  6. ansarthemystic

    ansarthemystic Member

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    Please enlighten me as to what a preterist, dispensationalist, and covenet eschatologist are. What about the rapture?....pre-trib, mid-trib,post-trib?....what do you think?

    peace and blessings
    assalamu aliakium
    shalom
     
  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Dispensationalism teaches that there are prophecies that are still not fulfilled, including commonly taught doctrine the second coming of Christ.  Preterism or covenant eschatology or realized eschatology teaches that Christ has fulfilled all the prophecies during the first century to be exact. The event usually associated with the fulfillment of Bible prophecy is the Roman-Jewish War of A.D.66-73, especially during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Preterism is the only consistant answer to all fulfilled prophecy recorded in the scripture.



    The rapture is not biblical teaching and that includes the rest of it's related components you have stated in your quote. This is what dispensationalism and futurism teaches and it is born out of the speculations and false interpretations of men. I used to believe in this false doctrine most of my Christian life until recently I have come to accept true Biblical teaching.  If you are interested in learning more about the past fulfilled view of scripture I would recommend you visit this site: preteristarchive.com

     

     
     
  8. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    So, the visions of Revelation (Jesus returning to set up the Kingdom, the judgement of the dead, etc.) are just empty dreams?
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    All that is written in Revelation is from Jesus Christ communicated through John to the first century believers who heard the message first and the events that were about to take place within their lifetime, not ours.  Just look at some of the time statements in Revelation:

    Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must take place shortly." 

    Revelation 1:3, "...the time is near."

    Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him." (Those Jews who had crucified Jesus in the first century would see his coming!) Revelation 2:16, "...I am coming to thee quickly, " Revelation 2:25, "…hold fast till I shall come." (To the church in Thyatira, 1 of 7 real churches that existed in Asia Minor between 61 and 65A.D.)

    Revelation 10:6, "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever…that there should be no more delay:" (Jesus said he would not delay his coming to those living in the first century!) 

    dr, if you were living during the first century and you heard these words, what conclusion would you come to?  Would you say to yourself, well, Jesus cannot be talking to us in our lifetime, He must be talking to some group of folks 2000 or plus years into the future!! Yeah, right!  Do you believe the words of Christ?  I'm sure you do. 
     
  10. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    Has the Resurrection and judgement occurred? Has New Jerusalem descended from Heaven? When did the event from the seven seals take place?
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Luke 21:20-22
    "20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. "

    Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in 66AD, before the "generation" that first received the prophesy had passed away.

    Christians at that time heeded the words of the Lord, and upon seeing Jerusalem surrounded, They fled to the mountains.

    Jesus said quite plainly that the sign of Jerusalem being surrounded was proof positive that the "days of vengeance in fulfillment of all things written" had finally arrived.

    I simply choose to believe Him.
    Do you?
     
  12. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Hiya P70 :)


    I ran across something the other day that i thought was interesting. The idea that there would be two Messiahs in some Jewish works-have you heard of this before ?
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Gee, no Phoenix. I had never heard that before.

    Is the view that one would be the suffering servant, and the other the warrior king?
     
  14. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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    Franklin has made some very valid points here. In the first 23 chapters of Matthew, over 80 times we find a common Greek verb for “come,” which is er'kho·mai. It often conveys the thought of approaching or drawing near, as at John 1:47: “Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him.” Depending on usage, the verb er'kho·mai can mean “arrive,” “go,” “get to,” “reach,” or “be on one’s way.” (Matthew 2:8, 11; 8:28; John 4:25, 27, 45; 20:4, 8; Acts 8:40; 13:51) But at Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39, Matthew used a different word, a noun found nowhere else in the Gospels: pa·rou·si'a. Since God inspired the writing of the Bible, why did he move Matthew to choose this Greek word in these verses when penning his Gospel in Greek? What does it mean, and why should we want to know?
    Pointedly, pa·rou·si'a means “presence.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says: “PAROUSIA, . . . lit[erally], a presence, para, with, and ousia, being (from eimi, to be), denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with.  So the question Jesus deciples asked him at Matt 24: 3 was: "what will be the sign of your presence (not coming).  This has huge implications.  When we see the signs that Jesus gave, this would not be an indication that he was going to "Come", but that he had already arrived or was present.
     
  15. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    It's just something i ran across while checking some things out on Jewish sites. If i find it again i'll post it.


    regards
     
  16. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Parousia 70  ,  what you say is correct , yet jesus also spoke of future prophecy not yet fulfilled , both before and after the verses you mention above .

    And here is what I am trying to say :


    <SUP>10</SUP>Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.<SUP> 11</SUP>And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.<SUP> 12</SUP>But before all these things,&nbsp;

    &nbsp;The above&nbsp;prophecy is yet future , and then he says , but before all these things , he&nbsp;is then&nbsp;speaking to that generation .

    After he has told them what is going to happen to them&nbsp; (&nbsp; jerusalem surounded by armies&nbsp; )&nbsp;&nbsp; he then&nbsp;speaks on prophecy which is yet to happen&nbsp;:

    &nbsp;And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


    <I>The Coming of the Son of Man</I>
    <SUP>(5)</SUP> <SUP>25</SUP> "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;<SUP> 26</SUP>men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.<SUP> 27</SUP>Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.<SUP> 28</SUP>Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."&nbsp;


    The link below is from bible gateway - luke 21

    http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+21&amp;language=english&amp;version=NKJV&amp;showfn=on&amp;showxref=on







    &nbsp;
     
  17. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    &nbsp;

    Brian, I am unclear on your point here.

    Do you believe "all things written" were fulfilled in The "days of vengeance" that surrounded Jerusalem's destruction, as Jesus&nbsp;promised they would be, or do you believe they weren't?

    Are you perhaps contending Jesus didn't really mean all&nbsp;things written, when He said "all things written"?

    Perhaps you could tell me what prophesies you believe were in fact confined to fulfillment in that event.

    &nbsp;

    Thanks in Christ,

    P70
     
  19. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Parousia 70 , I believe this prophecy is yet to happen :

    <SUP>10</SUP>Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.<SUP> 11</SUP>And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

    Jesus then said to them&nbsp; :&nbsp; But before all these things .

    He now tells them of events that will happen to the people of that time , it is this next prophecy that I am in agreement with you , as it now past tense&nbsp; :

    <SUP>12</SUP>But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.<SUP> 13</SUP>But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.<SUP> 14</SUP>Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;<SUP> 15</SUP>for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.<SUP> 16</SUP>You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.<SUP> 17</SUP>And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.<SUP> 18</SUP>But not a hair of your head shall be lost.<SUP> 19</SUP>By your patience possess your souls.


    <I>The Destruction of Jerusalem</I>
    <SUP>(4)</SUP> <SUP>20</SUP> "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.<SUP> 21</SUP>Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.<SUP> 22</SUP>For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.<SUP> 23</SUP>But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.<SUP> 24</SUP>And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled .

    I believe the next prophecy is in relation to the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled&nbsp;&nbsp;,&nbsp; this is where you and I would disagree , I believe this next prophecy was&nbsp;looking into&nbsp;the far future&nbsp; :

    The Coming of the Son of Man
    <SUP>(5)</SUP> <SUP>25</SUP> "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;<SUP> 26</SUP>men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.<SUP> 27</SUP>Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.<SUP> 28</SUP>Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."&nbsp;

    And just to confuse you even more ,&nbsp; I have placed another link&nbsp;showing all&nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; gopels on this matter&nbsp; .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :)

    &nbsp;

    http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?SearchType=AND&amp;language=english&amp;searchpage=0&amp;search=nation+will+rise+against+nation&amp;version=NKJV

    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;



    &nbsp;
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Brian.

    Thank you for clarifying which prophesies you do believe are fulfilled in Jerusalems destruction.

    I'd like to do a little simple math with you, to show you why I believe your "limitation" unwarranted.

    We can see from scripture itself that the Olivet cannot be divided to insert some far distant future. &nbsp;Luke 21:20-22 was actually the time the "Son of Man was revealed" according to scripture. &nbsp;Of course, we should already believe this because those were "the Days of Vengeance THAT ALL THINGS WRITTEN BE FULFILLED" (Luke 21:22).

    However, let's let scripture interpret scripture and see that AD67-70 was the time when the Son of Man was revealed:

    ____________________________________________________
    --COMPARE THIS--

    Luke 21:20-21- (A)

    "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. &nbsp;Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
    [67-70AD, as you agree]

    --TO THIS--

    Matthew 24:16-18 - (B)

    then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. &nbsp;Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak ...
    [66/67AD too, by parallel with Luke 21:20-21--AND NOW THIS--

    Luke 17:30-32 - (C)

    Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. &nbsp;On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
    [66/67AD by parallel with Matt 24:16-18]
    _____________________________________________________


    Here is the explicit relationship of the three above Olivet verses using rules of logic and interpretation:

    If 'A' = 'B'
    And if 'B' = 'C'
    THEN A = C



    THE FINAL CONCLUSION:

    IF
    (A) &nbsp;Luke 21:20-21 = (B) Matthew 24:16-18

    --AND--
    (B) Matthew 24:16-18 &nbsp;= &nbsp;(C) Luke 17:30-32

    --THEN--
    (A) Luke 21:20-21 = (C) &nbsp;Luke 17:30-32
    </B>



    The rules of logic demand that if A=B and if B=C, THEN 'A' MUST = 'C'. &nbsp;This PROVES beyond all doubt that Luke 21:20-22 must also have been "The Day in which the Son of Man was revealed," exactly as Luke 17:30-31 says. &nbsp;The time when the Judean Christians fled the city and countryside, coming straight off the roofs and not returning from the fields, &nbsp;was "the Day when the Son of Man was revealed." &nbsp; We get this certain fact according to Luke 17:30-31 which is parallel to Matt 24:16-18 which is parallel to Luke 21:20-21. &nbsp;When scripture interprets scripture, 67-70 was the time for the Son of Man to be revealed.


    Simple as ABC, don't ya think?
     
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