Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[prodromos]

By historical evidence I'm surmising you mean tradition?

No, I mean historical evidence, what historians use to determine the facts of the past.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

God 'resting' on the seventh day was prefiguring when Christ would rest in the tomb.

Where is that in the scriptures?

 

[BobRyan]

At some point in ALL these identical debates on this same topic, the "big question" has to be asked. And answered.

That's why I focused on it in these last few messages.

If it gets answered, that would be great. If it never is, but the evasions and the dancing around the issue continue on, then at least it can be said that it wasn't because of anyone's inability to understand what's at issue.

The big question has to have at least some fact behind it and also has to respond to actual facts found on this same thread that appear to outright contradict the premise for the question.

 

[klutedavid]

For the lost - the Law serves to convict them that they are lost - Rom 3:19-20 makes that case perfectly.

For the born-again the New Covenant writes that Law on the heart - the law known to Jeremiah and his readers (Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-12, Rom 3:31)

You repeated in essence what I said.

The law only convicts and condemns, that's it.

Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Obeying one or two laws does not annul that sentence of death.

The law cannot absolve, forgive, justify, sanctify, reconcile, or save anyone. The law had only one purpose (condemnation) and that purpose was reversed, when Jesus died on the cross. The blood of Christ removed that penalty of death for the Jews.

The only thing that could ever been written on anyone's heart, is the letter of love.

 

[BobRyan]

I suppose that's clever as a retort, but if we want to treat this issue as serious, we will acknowledge that there is no problem in locating the relevant Scriptures because a search engine will direct you to those Bible verses.

Any denomination could claim "sure we have a good Bible argument so support this-or-that doctrine we hold to - just google for those texts". What kind of "solution" is that??

It was the answer to the question about where to look.
.

"google for some Bible texts" at least to a point - is included in everyone's search but - people are finding what they are looking for sort of like google for "And Judas went out and hanged himself" as well as "go and do thou likewise" -- it can all be googled.

 

[BobRyan]

The law, the Sabbath, really only tells you that you are a transgressor. The law has no other benefit,

For the lost - the Law serves to convict them that they are lost - Rom 3:19-20 makes that case perfectly.

For the born-again the New Covenant writes that Law on the heart - the law known to Jeremiah and his readers (Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-12, Rom 3:31)

You repeated in essence what I said.

Only if you believe that the only function that the New Covenant has for the law written on the heart of the saints "is condemnation"

The law only convicts and condemns, that's it.

Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Until you read Rom 3:31 and also the New Covenant -- that is where "the other shoe drops" .

 

[klutedavid]

The big question has to have at least some fact behind it and also has to respond to actual facts found on this same thread that appear to outright contradict the premise for the question.

Do you realize that in all of Paul's letters the sabbath is only mentioned once. The only mention of the sabbath is in the letter to the Colossians.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

It would certainly appear that Paul was not preaching the sabbath to the Gentiles.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law

According to the scriptures love is not separate from God's 10 commandments it is expressed in obedience to them. A detailed scripture response is provided here; here; hear; and here if your interested.

Take Care.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you realize that in all of Paul's letters the sabbath is only mentioned once. .

And "do not take God's name in vain" is not mentioned by Paul at all
nor does he mention "Love God with all your heart".

But we do see Paul engaged in Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath" (including believing gentiles apparently since it is "every Sabbath") Acts 18:4

What is your point? that the Bible was downsized to "just the letters of Paul"??

 

[klutedavid]

For the lost - the Law serves to convict them that they are lost - Rom 3:19-20 makes that case perfectly.

For the born-again the New Covenant writes that Law on the heart - the law known to Jeremiah and his readers (Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-12, Rom 3:31)



Only if you believe that the only function that the New Covenant has for the law written on the heart of the saints "is condemnation"



Until you read Rom 3:31 and also the New Covenant -- that is where "the other shoe drops" .

Paul is talking about the singular purpose of the law. The law grants the knowledge of sin. The law identifies the inherent problem that humanity suffers from. Yet the law is powerless to grant freedom or liberty, the law only condemns. The law precedes the messiah and that ultimately was it's purpose.

Moses wrote all about that faith in Jesus!

 

[BobRyan]

you cannot or will not explain why you both affirm and deny the New Testament at almost the same time.

At some point you will notice the need to show that the phrase "you deny the New Testament" as addressed to all Sabbatarians (or all Adventists) has an actual post showing it.

 

[Freth]

Do you realize that in all of Paul's letters the sabbath is only mentioned once. The only mention of the sabbath is in the letter to the Colossians.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

It would certainly appear that Paul was not preaching the sabbath to the Gentiles.

Regardless of anything Paul said or didn't say, Jesus pointed to Sabbath observance at the time of the tribulation, as did Isaiah state that the Sabbath would be observed in heaven. What scripture is telling us that the Sabbath is not being observed, or is paused, between the crucifixion and the second coming? None.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul is talking about the singular purpose of the law. The law grants the knowledge of sin.

That is its role for the lost as Paul points out in Rom 3:19-20

By contrast the saved "ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

as Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
1 John 5:3 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

Paul's command to NT saints is by way of reminding them that in that unit of TEN "'Honor your father and mother' is the first command with a promise" Eph 6:2

 

[klutedavid]

And "do not take God's name in vain" is not mentioned by Paul at all
nor does he mention "Love God with all your heart".

But we do see Paul engaged in Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath" (including believing gentiles apparently since it is "every Sabbath") Acts 18:4

What is your point? that the Bible was downsized to "just the letters of Paul"??

Yes. Because Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Obviously Bob, if the Sabbath had any significance, then Paul would have told the Gentiles about the Sabbath.

Your reference to the book of Acts is not one of Paul's letters.

You continue to infer that Gentiles must obey the Sabbath.

Never once, is there a clear instruction from Paul to the Gentiles, that they must obey the sabbath. Not even in Acts 15, where the Gentiles are told by the apostles what laws they must obey.

 

[BobRyan]

And "do not take God's name in vain" is not mentioned by Paul at all
nor does he mention "Love God with all your heart".

But we do see Paul engaged in Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath" (including believing gentiles apparently since it is "every Sabbath") Acts 18:4

What is your point? that the Bible was downsized to "just the letters of Paul"??

Yes.

Paul said "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND IS TO BE USED FOR DOCTRINE" 2 Tim 3:16

Paul "could" have said -- "hey you guys... I am the APOSTLE Paul so just believe whatever I make up and toss your Bibles out the window".... but instead we have 2 Tim 3:16.

In fact far worse for you suggestion above - we have Eph 6:1-2 which is the exact opposite.

Where instead of

"Children, obey your parents - because I The Apostle To The Gentiles say so and I am more important than scripture"

We have this --

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), Eph 6:1-2

Paul argues that scripture is making his point just as Christ claimed in Mark 7:6-13. Paul argues for the authority in scripture in Eph 6 above his own.

 

[klutedavid]

Regardless of anything Paul said or didn't say, Jesus pointed to Sabbath observance at the time of the tribulation, as did Isaiah state that the Sabbath would be observed in heaven. What scripture is telling us that the Sabbath is not being observed, or is paused, between the crucifixion and the second coming? None.

That depends on the interpretation you are following.

Since the law only grants the knowledge of sin. I cannot see why anyone in heaven would need a conviction of sin?

You may need to examine the scripture more carefully.

 

[klutedavid]

Paul said "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND IS TO BE USED FOR DOCTRINE" 2 Tim 3:16

So you will need to include the entire law and the prophets, into 'ALL SCRIPTURE'. Too easy Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

You continue to infer that Gentiles must obey the Sabbath.

Never once, is there a clear instruction from Paul to the Gentiles, that they must obey the sabbath.

1. "Never is there a clear instruction from Paul to gentiles to love God with all their heart"

Jesus Christ Himself says it - but not Paul.

2. "Never is there a clear instruction from Paul to gentiles - 'do not to take God's name in vain' "

Neither are these two commands found in Acts 15...

What is your point??

Paul does not say "what matters is keeping the Commandments of Paul" but rather "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

WHERE - "the firs commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN is "Honor your father and mother "Eph 6:1-2

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Do you realize that in all of Paul's letters the sabbath is only mentioned once. The only mention of the sabbath is in the letter to the Colossians.
Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day. It would certainly appear that Paul was not preaching the sabbath to the Gentiles.

Seems your translation is a little misleading. The Greek word used in Colossians 2:16 for "sabbath" is σαββάτων; "sabbaton" [N-GNP] which is a noun that is genitive neuter plural [N-GNP] meaning plural application to sabbaths which is the most accurate translation to the Greek. This is why most translation translate Colossians 2:16 as "sabbaths or sabbath [days]. The scripture context of course is to the meat and drink offerings, and the new moons and the sabbaths in the annual Feast days when were all "shadows of things" to come [v17] and judging others in this regard.

According to the scriptures in the old covenant there were many different types of sabbaths (days of rest and holy convocation where no work was to be done) that had a different purpose to God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments or creation Sabbath. These included; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36 (sabbaths plural to sabbaton in Colossians 2:16-17; also called high sabbaths if they fall on the same day as a weekly sabbath *John 19:31).

These ceremonial sabbaths or "shadow sabbaths" were shadows of things to come because they linked directly to the annual Feast days not a weekly cycle, and were tied directly to the old covenant laws of remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the Sanctuary and laws for remission of sins through animal sacrifice and atonement and annual Feast days). These of course were all "shadow laws" pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and Savior of the world as God's true sacrifice for the sins of the world and Jesus as our true great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf once and for all based on better promises under the new covenant *see John 1:29; John 1:36; Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22. As posted earlier these ceremonial sabbaths are different and served a different purpose to God's 4th commandment which is one of God's eternal laws that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. God never made a covenant with gentiles.

Take Care.

 

[klutedavid]

According to the scriptures love is not separate from God's 10 commandments it is expressed in obedience to them. A detailed scripture response is provided here; here; hear; and here if your interested.

Take Care.

So not telling a lie is really a fervent love towards the brethren?