Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[Cornelius8L]

Brother, God ending the first day in "morning" means that the days of the week begin in the morning. The first half of the day of the week, which God calls "day", is from morning to evening, and the second half of the day of the week, which God calls night, is from evening to morning: making the days of the week from morning to morning and the first evening falls in the middle of the first day being the slow transition from light to dark. In the special case of the first day where the transition from dark to light was instantaneous, the full day is from first light to light again in the morning.

Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was LIGHT. And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.” And evening passed and MORNING came, marking the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NLT)​

The days in Genesis from morning to morning above are different than the Sabbath in Jerusalem below, from evening to evening, which also ends as it begins at sundown, half a day before the seventh day in Jerusalem.

This will be a Sabbath day of complete rest for you, and on that day you must deny yourselves. This day of rest will begin at sundown on the ninth day of the month and extend until sundown on the tenth day.” (Leviticus 23:32 NLT)​

The error of Judaism in thinking: a Sabbath in Jerusalem is a day of the week since Joshua is corrected by Paul below where the true biblical Sabbath is fixed in the time zone of creation in Eden and does not circle the earth with the week but stands separate from the days of the week in Jerusalem.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Sorry for not realizing you were referring to the definition of a day, but still not sure how the change in timing fits into Colossians 2.

 

[guevaraj]

Sorry for not realizing you were referring to the definition of a day, but still not sure how the change in timing fits into Colossians 2.

Brother, it means that Jesus' new Eleventh commandment to "follow" His example is added to the previous Ten Commandments and does not replace the previous Ten Commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

Jesus' Sabbath has been sabotaged by "human effort", as in the story of Hagar when "human effort" does not defeat sin and only Jesus' Eleven Commandments can defeat sin, because Jesus is not a blind guide like humans are to know how to use His Eleven Commandments to defeat sin.

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment (entolé) and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven! (Matthew 5:17-20 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

This post is addressed to everyone, I'm using the quote from SabbathBlessings to establish the context.

What I said is this poster does not share the same belief on the Sabbath as Seventh day Adventists. This is what SDA’s believe on the Sabbath

The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11.)

This poster has his own unique view that I do not believe is supported by the scriptures. He identifies himself as an SDA, but does not believe in the SDA 28 fundamental beliefs. As a church we can’t force someone to stop identifying themselves as a member, even if they do not go to church or are an official member, although it would be a lot less confusing if they would stop using the church name to teach something that goes against the church beliefs and biblical scriptures, especially one of the SDA’s foundational teachings. We are all responsible for what we teach, so one day soon this gets sorted out.

The following is one reason (of many) that I'm not a sabbatarian.

Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts.

That's not a quote of the scriptures, but I agree it is supported by the scriptures.

The issue is: sunset to sunset where? Virtually all SDA's and other sabbatarians use the sunset where they live.

This requires an international date line, or something like it.

An international date line is required in order to know where sunset on the first day becomes sunset on the second day, and so on. (Of course, there are also anomalies as one gets close to the Earth's poles.)

The issue with using the current international date line is that it's not something found in the scriptures, it's an opinion.

Our brother @guevaraj's solution is to use sunset to sunset in the Holy Land. The reasoning is complex (imo) but technically biblical, as far as I understand it. (And please correct me if I'm wrong, my brother!)

Peace be with you all!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The following is one reason (of many) that I'm not a sabbatarian.

That's not a quote of the scriptures, but I agree it is supported by the scriptures.

The issue is: sunset to sunset where? Virtually all SDA's and other sabbatarians use the sunset where they live.

This requires an international date line, or something like it.

An international date line is required in order to know where sunset on the first day becomes sunset on the second day, and so on. (Of course, there are also anomalies as one gets close to the Earth's poles.)

The issue with using the current international date line is that it's not something found in the scriptures, it's an opinion.

Our brother @guevaraj's solution is to use sunset to sunset in the Holy Land. The reasoning is complex (imo) but technically biblical, as far as I understand it. (And please correct me if I'm wrong, my brother!)

Peace be with you all!

To be honest, I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone here that you are not a Sabbath-keeper. The majority of people are not, for me I’m less concerned what the majority of people think or do and more concerned I am right with God, by doing what He asks. Jesus already told us its a narrow road, so popular teachings I am not concerned with.

Keeping the Sabbath from evening to evening dates back to biblical times Lev 23:32 and its not that hard to tell when its evening, things start getting dark. Sabbath-keeping is really simple, but people like to make it complicated mainly to be another distraction.

Like this dateline teaching or you must be on the time zone of Eden to keep the Sabbath, it is just another distraction for those who don’t want to keep the Sabbath. This poster has his own reason for his teachings and everything in dark will be made to light when Jesus comes so we can’t hide anything. We are responsible for what we teach and Jesus warns us for those who teach against the commandments, which also includes false teachings. Matthew 5:19.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God and we should always obey God’s commandments, but God gives us each free will and one day soon everything gets sorted out once and for all.

 

[Leaf473]

To be honest, I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone here that you are not a Sabbath-keeper. The majority of people are not, for me I’m less concerned what the majority of people think or do and more concerned I am right with God, by doing what He asks. Jesus already told us its a narrow road, so popular teachings I am not concerned with.

Keeping the Sabbath from evening to evening dates back to biblical times Lev 23:32 and its not that hard to tell when its evening, things start getting dark. Sabbath-keeping is really simple, but people like to make it complicated mainly to be another distraction.

Like this dateline teaching or you must be on the time zone of Eden to keep the Sabbath, it is just another distraction for those who don’t want to keep the Sabbath. This poster has his own reason for his teachings and everything in dark will be made to light when Jesus comes so we can’t hide anything. We are responsible for what we teach and Jesus warns us for those who teach against the commandments, which also includes false teachings. Matthew 5:19.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God and we should always obey God’s commandments, but God gives us each free will and one day soon everything gets sorted out once and for all.

I don't understand why you bring up the "majority of people" idea, or how that relates to what I wrote.

I agree that the Bible teaches that the Sabbath is sunset to sunset. It just doesn't say sunset where.

I know you see sunset and dateline issues as very simple. So, a question, if you wish to respond:
Where on Earth does the Bible say that sunset on the first day becomes sunset on the second day?

Peace be with you!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Brother, I was born to both parents, Seventh day Adventists and have a Master of Divinity degree from Andrews University, 2003. I simply understand more than "SabbathBlessings". She is correct that my view of when "evening" falls, in the middle of the first day, is different from the view of the church. I know from our prophetess' inspired writings that my church will understand Paul's correction in time: "Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet".

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[bbbbbbb]

To be honest, I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone here that you are not a Sabbath-keeper. The majority of people are not, for me I’m less concerned what the majority of people think or do and more concerned I am right with God, by doing what He asks. Jesus already told us its a narrow road, so popular teachings I am not concerned with.

Keeping the Sabbath from evening to evening dates back to biblical times Lev 23:32 and its not that hard to tell when its evening, things start getting dark. Sabbath-keeping is really simple, but people like to make it complicated mainly to be another distraction.

Like this dateline teaching or you must be on the time zone of Eden to keep the Sabbath, it is just another distraction for those who don’t want to keep the Sabbath. This poster has his own reason for his teachings and everything in dark will be made to light when Jesus comes so we can’t hide anything. We are responsible for what we teach and Jesus warns us for those who teach against the commandments, which also includes false teachings. Matthew 5:19.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God and we should always obey God’s commandments, but God gives us each free will and one day soon everything gets sorted out once and for all.

Thank you for your response. This is thorny issue and I appreciate the fact the you are SDA. Whether or not your views actually represent current SDA thought is for you and SabbathBlessings to determine.

The fact does remain, however, the SDA observance of Saturday is borrowed from nineteenth-century American Protestant religious traditions and is really far from the Sabbath observance of Moses and the nation of Israel, especially in the wilderness.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thank you for your response. This is thorny issue and I appreciate the fact the you are SDA. Whether or not your views actually represent current SDA thought is for you and SabbathBlessings to determine.

The fact does remain, however, the SDA observance of Saturday is borrowed from nineteenth-century American Protestant religious traditions and is really far from the Sabbath observance of Moses and the nation of Israel, especially in the wilderness.

My views represents the SDA view which is why I copied and pasted right from the Official SDA church beliefs. If I ever change my view I would no longer call myself an Adventist as I would be promoting false witness against this church by claiming to be part of an organization while teaching a conflicting view, especially one of the fundamental teachings.

By the way here is the Sabbath commanded, given from God, not in the nineteen century.

God takes ownership of His commandments

Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

 

[bbbbbbb]

My views represents the SDA view which is why I copied and pasted right from the Official SDA church beliefs. If I ever changed my view I would no longer call myself an Adventist as I would be promoting false witness against this church by claiming to be part of an organization while teaching a conflicting view.

By the way here is the Sabbath commanded, given from God, not in the nineteen century.

God takes ownership of His commandments

Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

As we all know, verse 8 is open to a wide variety of interpretations and implementations. The fact that your denomination has chosen to implement it in the form of nineteenth-century American Protestant traditions really is a stretch IMHO.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As we all know, verse 8 is open to a wide variety of interpretations and implementations. The fact that your denomination has chosen to implement it in the form of nineteenth-century American Protestant traditions really is a stretch IMHO.

Not really, the commandment is pretty self-explanatory, but many don't want to give up their time.

 

[Leaf473]

To be honest, I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone here that you are not a Sabbath-keeper. The majority of people are not, for me I’m less concerned what the majority of people think or do and more concerned I am right with God, by doing what He asks. Jesus already told us its a narrow road, so popular teachings I am not concerned with.

Keeping the Sabbath from evening to evening dates back to biblical times Lev 23:32 and its not that hard to tell when its evening, things start getting dark. Sabbath-keeping is really simple, but people like to make it complicated mainly to be another distraction.

Like this dateline teaching or you must be on the time zone of Eden to keep the Sabbath, it is just another distraction for those who don’t want to keep the Sabbath. This poster has his own reason for his teachings and everything in dark will be made to light when Jesus comes so we can’t hide anything. We are responsible for what we teach and Jesus warns us for those who teach against the commandments, which also includes false teachings. Matthew 5:19.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God and we should always obey God’s commandments, but God gives us each free will and one day soon everything gets sorted out once and for all.

I know you see sunset and dateline issues as very simple. So, a question, if you wish to respond:
Where on Earth does the Bible say that sunset on the first day becomes sunset on the second day?

That's fine if no one wants to answer. I asked the question for discussion purposes, I already know the answer:

The Bible doesn't say.*

Assertions about what day it is where you live are opinions.

Peace be with you all!

*With the possible exception of what @guevaraj has found. Myself, I find the reasoning difficult to follow.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's fine if no one wants to answer. I asked the question for discussion purposes, I already know the answer:

The Bible doesn't say.*

Assertions about what day it is where you live are opinions.

Peace be with you all!

*With the possible exception of what @guevaraj has found. Myself, I find the reasoning difficult to follow.

There’s a lot of things the scriptures do not say, my focus is on what the scriptures do say and trust if God gives us a commandment that He asks us to keep, He gives us the tools to obey Him.

Take care.

 

[Leaf473]

There’s a lot of things the scriptures do not say, my focus is on what the scriptures do say and trust if God gives us a commandment that He asks us to keep, He gives us the tools to obey Him.

Take care.

There are no tools in the scriptures to say when sunset of the seventh day becomes sunset of the first day. Or, if you know of any, please post them!

Peace be with you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not really, the commandment is pretty self-explanatory, but many don't want to give up their time.

If it so self-explanatory then why did God find the apparent need to elaborate on in further commandments? Even those commandments, such as "Thou shalt not kindle a fire on the Sabbath." have been widely dismissed, reinterpreted to permit kindling fires to for heating buildings, cooking food, and starting internal combustion engines.

What the commandment does leave wide open is a very wide array of practices of which one seems to be the use of nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If it so self-explanatory then why did God find the apparent need to elaborate on in further commandments? Even those commandments, such as "Thou shalt not kindle a fire on the Sabbath." have been widely dismissed, reinterpreted to permit kindling fires to for heating buildings, cooking food, and starting internal combustion engines.

What the commandment does leave wide open is a very wide array of practices of which one seems to be the use of nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities.

All of the commandments were expanded upon throughout scripture, not changed.

The Sabbath commandment is:

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8 The rest of the commandment tells us how to do that. Do all thy work and labors in six days Exodus 20:9 but we are to rest from our work on the seventh day so we can keep the Sabbath day holy.

The purpose of the Sabbath is to honor God on His holy day

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

The scriptures are filled with how we are to honor God on His holy day. Some of the best examples were Jesus and the disciples who honored God by reading His Word in the synagogues on the Sabbath Luke 4:16-30 preaching the Word of God, prayer, reasoning with the scriptures and being in church with other Christians learning God's Word and fellowship. Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44, Acts 17:4, Acts 18:4. The Sabbath is the day to put all of our work and worries aside and rest in Christ on His holy and blessed Sabbath day and honoring Him. It's to thank Him for everything He made for us without us. Everything we have is because of God and God is the one who sanctifies us, we do not sanctify ourselves. John 17:17, Ezekiel 20:12

 

[bbbbbbb]

All of the commandments were expanded upon throughout scripture, not changed.

The Sabbath commandment is:

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8 The rest of the commandment tells us how to do that. Do all thy work and labors in six days Exodus 20:9 but we are to rest from our work on the seventh day so we can keep the Sabbath day holy.

The purpose of the Sabbath is to honor God on His holy day

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

The scriptures are filled with how we are to honor God on His holy day. Some of the best examples were Jesus and the disciples who honored God by reading His Word in the synagogues on the Sabbath Luke 4:16-30 preaching the Word of God, prayer, reasoning with the scriptures and being in church with other Christians learning God's Word and fellowship. Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44, Acts 17:4, Acts 18:4. The Sabbath is the day to put all of our work and worries aside and rest in Christ on His holy and blessed Sabbath day and honoring Him. It's to thank Him for everything He made for us without us. Everything we have is because of God and God is the one who sanctifies us, we do not sanctify ourselves. John 17:17, Ezekiel 20:12

If, in fact, you believe that "All of the commandments were expanded upon throughout scripture, not changed." why do you kindle fires on the Sabbath?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If, in fact, you believe that "All of the commandments were expanded upon throughout scripture, not changed." why do you kindle fires on the Sabbath?

Have you ever tried to kindle a fire the way it’s referring to in scripture? It’s a lot of work.

Also you have no idea what I do since we have never met.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Have you ever tried to kindle a fire the way it’s referring to in scripture? It’s a lot of work.

Also you have no idea what I do since we have never met.

It is a lot of work, indeed. I have driven by the local SDA church here on Saturday mornings and noted the cars in the parking lot. I would wage my reputation that the internal combustion engines inside those vehicles had a fire kindled in them that very morning. In the winter I would be quite amazed if no fire was kindled to warm the church building. One might make an argument that electric vehicles and electric heating systems do not require kindling on the Sabbath. Likewise, one might cook with an all-electric stove on Saturday in an all-electric house, but trust me, there is some serious kindling going on to produce the electricity and good folks work all days of the week to make sure that the power gets to the consumer.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It is a lot of work, indeed. I have driven by the local SDA church here on Saturday mornings and noted the cars in the parking lot. I would wage my reputation that the internal combustion engines inside those vehicles had a fire kindled in them that very morning. In the winter I would be quite amazed if no fire was kindled to warm the church building. One might make an argument that electric vehicles and electric heating systems do not require kindling on the Sabbath. Likewise, one might cook with an all-electric stove on Saturday in an all-electric house, but trust me, there is some serious kindling going on to produce the electricity and good folks work all days of the week to make sure that the power gets to the consumer.

It takes no effort to start a car, so you seem to have a misunderstanding behind not kindling a fire in scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It takes no effort to start a car, so you seem to have a misunderstanding behind not kindling a fire in scripture.

Bingo! It takes no effort to stay in bed and rest, which is, after all, the purpose of the seventh-day. it does take effort to get up, dress, shower, cook breakfast, get in the car, drive who knows how far, get out and engage in a nineteenth-century traditional American Protestant religious service and then repeat everything in reverse with additional work along the way. I have no problem with anyone who wants to take a day off each week and rest, do you?