Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[SabbathBlessings]

Bingo! It takes no effort to stay in bed and rest, which is, after all, the purpose of the seventh-day. it does take effort to get up, dress, shower, cook breakfast, get in the car, drive who knows how far, get out and engage in a nineteenth-century traditional American Protestant religious service and then repeat everything in reverse with additional work along the way. I have no problem with anyone who wants to take a day off each week and rest, do you?

Sorry, not following you. To me it’s not about what we have a problem with or not it’s about following God’s Word. We will probably have to agree to disagree.

Take care.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sorry, not following you. To me it’s not about what we have a problem with or not it’s about following God’s Word. We will probably have to agree to disagree.

Take care.

Do you agree the Sabbath is about resting and not working?

 

[Cornelius8L]

Brother, it means that Jesus' new Eleventh commandment to "follow" His example is added to the previous Ten Commandments and does not replace the previous Ten Commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

Jesus' Sabbath has been sabotaged by "human effort", as in the story of Hagar when "human effort" does not defeat sin and only Jesus' Eleven Commandments can defeat sin, because Jesus is not a blind guide like humans are to know how to use His Eleven Commandments to defeat sin.

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment (entolé) and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven! (Matthew 5:17-20 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Brother, the one thing “follow me” was referring to 2 Corinthians 3:11 and Hebrews 8:13 because He came to obsolete the fading. We follow Him in our hearts and minds (John 17:23) by what He has taught (Luke 6:46). Also, He never states that as a commandment but as reality (John 5:39) that keeping ten without 2 Corinthians 3:11 and Hebrews 8:13 will yield the same outcome as that mentioned religious leader.

 

[guevaraj]

Brother, the one thing “follow me” was referring to 2 Corinthians 3:11 and Hebrews 8:13 as He came to fulfill the fading - we follow Him who fulfilled the fading. Moreover, He never states that as a commandment but as reality (John 5:39). Keeping ten without 2 Corinthians 3:11 and Hebrews 8:13 will yield the same outcome as that mentioned religious leader.

Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday November 4, 2022 at 10:47 am EDT! It is humans who want to show less removal of sin than the "glory" of the Ten Commandments, when Jesus expects us to show more removal of sin with the "overwhelming glory" of the current Eleven Commandments over the previous "glory" of the Ten Commandments. Since Jesus obeyed the previous Ten Commandments and we are to "follow" His example in the new Eleventh Commandment, all the previous Ten Commandments are included in the new Eleventh Commandment.

The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! (2 Corinthians 3:7-11 NLT)​

The reason the old way led to death is because Judaism's "human effort" sabotaged the Ten Commandments to not show the fulfillment of God's promise to remove sin, as in the story of Hagar, explained by Jesus in the following passage. For example, so as not to misuse God's name, Judaism invented their own rule not to pronounce God's name at all. These human rules of avoidance do not show the removal of sin. Sin is shown removed by obeying the current Eleven Commandments, where the effort is made and not avoided to not misuse His name. Jesus opposed the human rules of Judaism, saying that they were human traditions of "blind guides". The problem with Judaism is not in doing what God asked of them but that they sabotage the Ten Commandments of God with their own human rules when they are "blind guides" to use human rules effectively to show the removal of sin, unlike Jesus who does know how to show the removal of sin through His Eleven Commandments. God shows the separation of sin from our character through His Ten Commandments! What Judaism has not understood is that not just any human rule will show the removal of sin from our character, but only the Ten Commandments given by someone who knows how to show the removal of sin from our character. Therefore, human rules will not show the separation of sin from our character because we are "blind guides" and only God's Ten Commandments can show the separation of sin from our character, because He is not a "blind guide" to show the removal of sin from our character. Sin Jesus showed removed through His Ten Commandments and now more under the new covenant's Eleven Commandments.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Cornelius8L]

Brother, happy Sabbath, which starts this Friday November 4, 2022 at 10:47 am EDT! It is humans who want to show less removal of sin than the "glory" of the Ten Commandments, when Jesus expects us to show more removal of sin with the "overwhelming glory" of the current Eleven Commandments over the previous "glory" of the Ten Commandments. Since Jesus obeyed the previous Ten Commandments and we are to "follow" His example in the new Eleventh Commandment, all the previous Ten Commandments are included in the new Eleventh Commandment.

The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! (2 Corinthians 3:7-11 NLT)​

The reason the old way led to death is because Judaism's "human effort" sabotaged the Ten Commandments to not show the fulfillment of God's promise to remove sin, as in the story of Hagar, explained by Jesus in the following passage. For example, so as not to misuse God's name, Judaism invented their own rule not to pronounce God's name at all. These human rules of avoidance do not show the removal of sin. Sin is shown removed by obeying the current Eleven Commandments, where the effort is made and not avoided to not misuse His name. Jesus opposed the human rules of Judaism, saying that they were human traditions of "blind guides". The problem with Judaism is not in doing what God asked of them but that they sabotage the Ten Commandments of God with their own human rules when they are "blind guides" to use human rules effectively to show the removal of sin, unlike Jesus who does know how to show the removal of sin through His Eleven Commandments. God shows the separation of sin from our character through His Ten Commandments! What Judaism has not understood is that not just any human rule will show the removal of sin from our character, but only the Ten Commandments given by someone who knows how to show the removal of sin from our character. Therefore, human rules will not show the separation of sin from our character because we are "blind guides" and only God's Ten Commandments can show the separation of sin from our character, because He is not a "blind guide" to show the removal of sin from our character. Sin Jesus showed removed through His Ten Commandments and now more under the new covenant's Eleven Commandments.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Brother, let’s continue this discussion in Did Jesus give us an Eleventh Commandment?

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus is our example in all things and following the things He did should not give anyone cause for concern.

Jesus went to synagogue on the Sabbath and to Jerusalem for the feast of Tabernacles. To be consistent, I believe a person would do both or neither.

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power and love and a sound mind.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 1:6-12 - J.B. Phillips New Testament

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus went to synagogue on the Sabbath and to Jerusalem for the feast of Tabernacles. To be consistent, I believe a person would do both or neither.

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power and love and a sound mind.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 1:6-12 - J.B. Phillips New Testament

Actually, it is not at all certain about Jesus attending a regular, local synagogue weekly. His ministry was itinerant in nature so that he was rarely in one place for very long. Thus, the concept of church membership which is engrained in our culture did not seem to have been practiced by Jesus. Jesus' ministry was 24/7. He was recorded as speaking in several synagogues, but more or less as a special speaker and not part of the regular routine.

Jesus' Sabbath-keeping was definitely outside of the box. When He and His disciples were walking on one Sabbath the disciples, who were hungry, were plucking grain heads and rubbing them to get the grain to eat. The Pharisees rebuked Jesus for working on the Sabbath.

 

[JulieB67]

Thus, the concept of church membership which is engrained in our culture did not seem to have been practiced by Jesus. Jesus' ministry was 24/7.

Exactly! Most of Christ's ministry took place outdoors, etc.

It just seems as if people would rather worship a "day" than know that the rest that Christ gives our souls is enough today and that's what Paul preaches. Especially in this day and age. Our Father is much more intelligent than people give him credit it for. He knew the day of rest was going to turn into Sabbatimos, the rest of Christianity. He knew a day of rest was literally going to be impossible for people to keep in our age. People who are on call, people who have to work weekends, etc. I was in healthcare many years and had to work weekends. It's not plausible and thank our Father who did give us the Son so we can have the rest for our souls. That's the only rest one needs today -sabbatimos.

 

[Bob S]

Those who tell us we should follow Jesus' example seem not to realize His example would be to keep all of the 613 laws that pertained to the individual Israelite. I cannot find a law that would demand attending a synagogue, yet Sabbath observers teach keeping Sabbath means assembling together on the old Israelite Sabbath and belonging to an organized group of like believers. Does believing in Jesus mean we are bound to do everything He did or keep all that He kept?

I continue to ask where in all of scripture God has ever demanded Gentiles or Christians to observe Sabbath. No one has given me a straight answer, yet according to the SDAs if we are aware of the Sabbath and do not observe it, we are doomed to Hell. Where does that reasoning come from?

Question: Is anyone able to prove that the commandments of God are only the ten commandments or even the ten? If you are unable, why do some use verses with commandments of God to try to prove one of them is referring to the Sabbath. I refer you to 1Jn3:19-24

 

[JulieB67]

No one has given me a straight answer, yet according to the SDAs if we are aware of the Sabbath and do not observe it, we are doomed to Hell. Where does that reasoning come from?

The thing is they are judging people and that's a huge no no. They don't understand either though that Christ truly fulfilled that commandment and that he can give rest unto our souls. And when we accept him we are keeping the sabbath holy since he is our sabbath rest.

You stated, you were in the church for years? I had to leave mine once too when I found out certain doctrines weren't biblical. It's hard for me to trust any church these days after that.

 

[Bob S]

The thing is they are judging people and that's a huge no no. They don't understand either though that Christ truly fulfilled that commandment and that he can give rest unto our souls. And when we accept him we are keeping the sabbath holy since he is our sabbath rest.

You stated, you were in the church for years? I had to leave mine once too when I found out certain doctrines weren't biblical. It's hard for me to trust any church these days after that.

Hi Julie, yes I was an Adventist for almost 40 years. I saw many cracks in the foundation of Adventism along the way, but I kept so busy trying to support my family and the demands of the church that I studied very little. That is until I retired and then I did an in-depth study of the beliefs and Ellen White's role in influencing every aspect of their teachings. Some of her writings are atrocious, some have half-truths and some are doctrinal. She was fixated on the Sabbath of the old covenant and like SDAs today would not recognize the real truth scripture provides.

Ours is to plant the seeds and allow the Holy Spirit to guide all into the simple plan of salvation through Jesus our Savior.

Let me make it clear that I do not advocate keeping any day. Those who deem keeping Sabbath is God's will for them I fully support. What I strongly disagree with is when I am told I am sinning if I do not do what others believe, especially Sabbath keeping.

 

[Leaf473]

Actually, it is not at all certain about Jesus attending a regular, local synagogue weekly. His ministry was itinerant in nature so that he was rarely in one place for very long. Thus, the concept of church membership which is engrained in our culture did not seem to have been practiced by Jesus. Jesus' ministry was 24/7. He was recorded as speaking in several synagogues, but more or less as a special speaker and not part of the regular routine.

Jesus' Sabbath-keeping was definitely outside of the box. When He and His disciples were walking on one Sabbath the disciples, who were hungry, were plucking grain heads and rubbing them to get the grain to eat. The Pharisees rebuked Jesus for working on the Sabbath.

Yes, I agree that Jesus was itinerant and probably didn't have a synagogue that he attended regularly.

Peace be with you!

 

[Leaf473]

Those who tell us we should follow Jesus' example seem not to realize His example would be to keep all of the 613 laws that pertained to the individual Israelite.

True! It's a package deal,

Deuteronomy 8
You shall observe to do all the commandments which I command you today, that you may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord swore to your fathers.

 

[Leaf473]

Bingo! It takes no effort to stay in bed and rest, which is, after all, the purpose of the seventh-day. it does take effort to get up, dress, shower, cook breakfast, get in the car, drive who knows how far, get out and engage in a nineteenth-century traditional American Protestant religious service and then repeat everything in reverse with additional work along the way. I have no problem with anyone who wants to take a day off each week and rest, do you?

Talking about nineteenth-century things got me to thinking. How did nineteenth-century sabbatarians get to church? Does anyone here know?

Exodus 20
You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

Peace be with you!

 

[JulieB67]

Hi Julie, yes I was an Adventist for almost 40 years. I saw many cracks in the foundation of Adventism along the way, but I kept so busy trying to support my family and the demands of the church that I studied very little. That is until I retired and then I did an in-depth study of the beliefs and Ellen White's role in influencing every aspect of their teachings. Some of her writings are atrocious, some have half-truths and some are doctrinal. She was fixated on the Sabbath of the old covenant and like SDAs today would not recognize the real truth scripture provides.

Ours is to plant the seeds and allow the Holy Spirit to guide all into the simple plan of salvation through Jesus our Savior.

Let me make it clear that I do not advocate keeping any day. Those who deem keeping Sabbath is God's will for them I fully support. What I strongly disagree with is when I am told I am sinning if I do not do what others believe, especially Sabbath keeping.

I was kind of the same way Bob. I was raised in a certain church and kind of let them teach me. Which is fine as a child (had questions though) but later on as I got older did not study enough to show myself approved that's for sure. I started in depth studying for myself about 20 years ago and many things I were taught imo were not biblical. And I'm still studying as the word continues to grow for me.
But I did a lot of soul searching back then. And as they say it's harder at times to unlearn something than it is to learn something. We know that's what indoctrination can do to you. But I only wanted the truth no matter what that is. Thank goodness our Father is the true heart knower.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, I agree that Jesus was itinerant and probably didn't have a synagogue that he attended regularly.

Peace be with you!

Thank you!

 

[Bob S]

I was kind of the same way Bob. I was raised in a certain church and kind of let them teach me. Which is fine as a child (had questions though) but later on as I got older did not study enough to show myself approved that's for sure. I started in depth studying for myself about 20 years ago and many things I were taught imo were not biblical. And I'm still studying as the word continues to grow for me.
But I did a lot of soul searching back then. And as they say it's harder at times to unlearn something than it is to learn something. We know that's what indoctrination can do to you. But I only wanted the truth no matter what that is. Thank goodness our Father is the true heart knower.

Hi Julie, there are all kinds of theological ways to try to convince people that it is necessary to observe Sabbath. The one thing no SDA or Messianic has been able to answer is when did God require gentiles to observe the Sabbath that was given to Israel?

The real fact is that the Sabbath was given ONLY to Israel. It was a command of the old covenant given to one nation, Israel. The old covenant has ended and all mankind have been given a new and better covenant not by works of the old covenant, but by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is so simple to figure out for people that are able to question all that they have been taught. Just because my parents and their parents are/were of a certain persuasion does not in any way prove that their belief system was entirely true. Keep the faith. Bob

 

[Bob S]

True! It's a package deal,

Deuteronomy 8
You shall observe to do all the commandments which I command you today, that you may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord swore to your fathers.

To put it in today's terms, it WAS a package deal. No one is obligated to observe the old covenant. Jews may not realize it, but they are under the new covenant too. The new covenant was made for them.

 

[Aaron112]

But for the grace of God go I,

Hi Bob S,

• FACT: You make the claim that the Sabbath is only for the Jews.
• FACT: Jesus says counteracts your private interpretation and plainly says the Sabbath was made for human beings.

Those are the facts. You "think" your opinion counts as fact, but sorry to tell you, it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure even if you found the word for seventh day of the week being Sabbath in every last one of the languages of the world that you'd claim it was still only for the Jews. Let's just review your prior claim that we are currently examining:

Seems very exclusive when we look at history and find that even today much of the Earth' population has not an inkling of knowledge of Saturday being special. As far as I know of all the artifacts man has discovered there is not an inkling of mankind showing they had any knowledge of Sabbath. Some nations had an eight-day week. Some may have not even recognized such a cycle.​

• FACT: You insist that "there is not an inkling of mankind showing they had any knowledge of Sabbath."
• FACT: The languages of the world disprove this premise.
• FACT: You don't acknowledge your failed premise but move the goal posts to distract from your failure.

QUESTION: Is it true that there is "not an inkling of mankind showing they had any knowledge of the Sabbath?

So basically, what I'm seeing you implying is that these different nations from all over the world felt strongly enough about the word Sabbath that they were inclined to name the seventh day of the week in honor of something they didn't observe? That is a weak response to something which contradicts your personal belief. You brazenly insisted that "there is not an inkling of mankind showing they had any knowledge of Sabbath." Now that your insistent premise has been exposed you're tenaciously clinging to it by dismissing FACTS based on incoherent excuses (e.g. "is there any evidence of any of those nations observing the Sabbath?"). I'd love to hear your explanation for why these nations chose to title their seventh day using what your private interpretation has concluded is a day only for the Jews? Why are these nations tying themselves to a Jewish holy day?

Hmm. Sounds like you're being hypocritical in castigating me for noting that you shouldn't be rejecting knowledge by claiming I "have no knowledge." Is it not a FACT that you rejected knowledge regarding your insistence that "there is not an inkling of mankind showing they had any knowledge of Sabbath." That is a blatant rejection of knowledge. You know that's not true, yet you rejected the knowledge of the truth and plowed ahead with your grossly negligent insistence. That's a fact.

My premise along this line is very simple. See if you can follow my line of reasoning:

• FACT: You brazenly insisted that "there is not an inkling of mankind showing they had any knowledge of Sabbath."
• FACT: You have addressed these Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian, not only on this forum but also on another forum.
• FACT: You were aware that languages of non Jewish nations around the world use the word Sabbath to name the seventh day of the week.
• FACT: You rejected the above knowledge and made your claim to the contrary.

I'm not putting you down. I'm correcting you as the Bible tells me I should.

As I noted above, even if I proved to you that all of these other nations were "keeping the seventh-day holy," you'd almost assuredly move on to a new rejection of knowledge.

I await your explanation for why these non Jewish nations elected to name the seventh day of the week after what your private interpretation of the Scriptures insists is a day only for the Jews.

This is exactly my point. You just got exposed for rejecting knowledge and you didn't receive the correction and repent of it. You merely attempted to shrug it off. But if you're going to attempt to shrug it off, I'm merely going to shed more light on the FACT that you're continuing to reject knowledge.

Previously you made this audacious claim:

"There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality. Throughout the Old Testament people were excused when breaking the Sabbath which was a ritual law."​

I referred you to the story of the man put to death for collecting sticks on the Sabbath. Did you acknowledge your failed premise? No. Or rather, did you try to spin your nonsense into some other direction? Yes. What does how ppl apply the law now have to do with your original assertion? Nothing.

To address your "just a thought," nonsense. Did you happen to actually read the Numbers passage I posted? If you did you'd notice that in this particular case the ppl brought the transgressor to Moses, then Moses brought the case before God. This is known as a theocracy--a system of government in which God is the final authority. God said to the man to death.

• FACT: You claim that "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality."
• FACT: I showed you that God put this Sabbath transgressor to death, fulfilling your basic premise regarding morality.
• FACT: You said, "Throughout the Old Testament people were excused when breaking the Sabbath which was a ritual law."
• FACT: The example of the man gathering sticks who was put to death proves the opposite of your privately held belief.

So what did you do when confronted with these particular facts? You attempted to spin the available information in another direction and hoped I wouldn't hold your feet to the fire. Being corrected isn't enjoyable and I'm sure you feel put upon when I draw attention to your errant beliefs, but God calls for me to correct misinformation posing as biblical truth.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Aaron112]

Talking about nineteenth-century things got me to thinking. How did nineteenth-century sabbatarians get to church? Does anyone here know?

I think they simply met together house to house, in each other's homes, in small groups/usually?/ , and followed Jesus, talked about Jesus, loved and obeyed Jesus, and kept His Word.