Ten comandments; Intersting

[Billnew]

If church and state are not kept separated, the government will eventually dictate church policy; this is the nature of governments.

I believe the Seperation of Church and State is a one way protection.

"Congress(Government) shall make no law...."
People can bring religion into Government but Government can't bring Religion
into government.

Actually, the Ten comandments are one of the oldest documents of law.
Their may be debate as to how much they influenced our laws but they are one of the oldest laws still around.

 

[ade32]

I certainly have to see enough pagan symbology. Why not?

What like the whitehouse christmas tree? What pagan symbology are you talking about?

 

[ade32]

Well, the Ten Commandments are applicable to Christianity and Judaism, aren't they also part of Islamism? I think in this case, we might be covering enough bases not to show any favoritism to any particular religion.

 

[k]

Well, the Ten Commandments are applicable to Christianity and Judaism, aren't they also part of Islamism? I think in this case, we might be covering enough bases not to show any favoritism to any particular religion.

The T.C. are not a part of Islam, although there are shared ideas between the two. In any case, I have never met a Muslim in the US who felt their religion was equally represented alongside Christianity, but that's just my experience. Moreover, since 9/11 more Muslims have been the targets of unfair and prejudiced attacks for being nothing more than a Muslim.

 

[ZACTAK]

Our law is not based on the 10 commandments, and should not be on display there. As for separation, it is part of the constitution. Jefferson wrote it, I think anything he wrote in regards to it makes it pretty explicit what he meant therein.

Separation, however does not mean that one has to shed, or hide their religion. If one is allowed to give a speech while accepting a public office, they should be able to include prayer in it if they so chose.

Then you do not understand the creation of our country. The majority of our founding fathers were Christian. There are many laws still in place today that are covered in the ten commandments. We even had laws created that are in the 10 Commandments that are no longer laws today. This nation was founded on Christian beliefs...it is evident in our Constitution as well as taking a simple American History class.

 

[ZACTAK]

The T.C. are not a part of Islam, although there are shared ideas between the two. In any case, I have never met a Muslim in the US who felt their religion was equally represented alongside Christianity, but that's just my experience. Moreover, since 9/11 more Muslims have been the targets of unfair and prejudiced attacks for being nothing more than a Muslim.

And I am sure that many Christians say that we are discriminated against in schools and other things. I had a class in elementary school or middle school in which we were talking about the various Gods and what they did, but when it came to Jesus my teacher didn't even say his name, or teach us about Him because she wasn't allowed to. Christianity is always under attack in this country. Look back into the history of this country and see how often Christianity has been the target of a court battle.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Then you do not understand the creation of our country.

Vylo seems to have a pretty good understanding to me.

The majority of our founding fathers were Christian.

That's not relevant to whether our laws were based upon the ten commandments.

There are many laws still in place today that are covered in the ten commandments.

Not really. I can see why you worded it this way, however, because it inflates the claim you are supporting.

Of course there are many laws still in place today that are covered in the ten commandments, but the thing to note is that they are incarnations of the same law.

When you look at it more accurately by stating which ten commandments are covered in today's laws in the U.S., you can only come up with 2.5 of them. Those would be the commandments regarding murder, theft, and lying. Of course lying, per se, is not against the law, but perjury is (thus it contributes only 0.5).

It's also a logical fallacy to say that this correlation demands causation. That is to say, it doesn't mean that the ten commandments directly are responsible for these laws, especially when they are hardly unique to the ten commandments and pre-date them.

We even had laws created that are in the 10 Commandments that are no longer laws today.

That's debatable, but also irrelevant.

This nation was founded on Christian beliefs...it is evident in our Constitution as well as taking a simple American History class.

The nation was founded on principles of the European Enlightenment philosophies, which the founding fathers admired...it is evident in our Constitution (which makes no reference to Christianity, by the way, and the majority of the ten commandments would be unconstitutional if enacted as laws) as well as by taking a basic American History class.

 

[AirPo]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149197,00.html



There technically is nothing in the Constitution about a seperation of church and state. What people are referring to is a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a church about seperation of church and state. The First Amendment talks about freedom of religion... we have the freedom to choose what religion we want to follow. It doesn't say we have freedom from religion.

Technically, freedom of religion is not in the Constitution either.

 

[ade32]

If this display is allowed, get ready for a whole host of busybodies from other religions trying to get their stuff on public buildings. It really is opening a can of worms.

 

[k]

And I am sure that many Christians say that we are discriminated against in schools and other things. I had a class in elementary school or middle school in which we were talking about the various Gods and what they did, but when it came to Jesus my teacher didn't even say his name, or teach us about Him because she wasn't allowed to. Christianity is always under attack in this country. Look back into the history of this country and see how often Christianity has been the target of a court battle.

Considering Christianity is at the top of our hierarchical structure, we simply see things differently. I am sure there was more going on in the classroom (or around it) that prevented the teacher from saying certain things. I don't think a teacher in a public school should take on the role of a pastor.

Was it "Christianity" that was targeted or religion? Meaning if Islam was the major religion in the US would that have changed the court battles? People fighting for separation of church and state are not targeting Christianity. I don't see Jesus wanting us to pass laws that force his message onto people's lives in a legal hand. We are to share the love of Christ in our daily living, and if we do that, then much of what the court battles are about would not be there.

 

[k]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Seems to me that says Congress should not pass legislation based on what any religious doctrine has to say.

 

[crazyfingers]

How can you ask someone to swear on a bible,

They can not require it. They simply assume that most people believe such stuff. They CAN NOT require it and it's VERY good when someone call them on it because it's utterly inappropriate for the GOVT to assume that someone believes in the Xian god.

have "IN GOD WE TRUST" on our currency.

Unconstitutional in my opinion because the GOVT has no right to say that a god exists.

How can the Ten comandments be unConstitutional?

For the GOVT to display them is 1: for the GOVT to declare that a god exists which it has no right to do and 2: for the GOVT to say what it thinks that people should belleve regarding religion which it also has no right to do.

Delete the first 4 commendments and I'd be fine with it. But the first 4 the GOVT has NO BUSINESS posting and telling all to believe.

Posting the 10Cs on government property is pure and simple the government telling people what they should believe regarding religion. They have NO BUSINESS doing that. They presume too much! People who attempt to use the government to support a religious message are doing evil as they impose on the rights of others.

 

[k]

The Ten Commandments were never "laws," that is why they are called "Commandments." It seems important we look at the historical relevance because unpacking the difference may help us understand some deeper issues.

 

[Vylo]

OK, sort of a follow up question here.

I don't think there should be any 10 commandment monuments put up in courthouses, what about pre-existing ones?

While it is true that our fore-fathers valued separation, many were christians, there were, and still are a lot of christian who were involved in building this nation. Should these monuments be considered historical and left as is?

I am well aware that people of all walks of life helped build this nation, but we do have to acknowledge that christians were and are the bulk of our population.

What about religious symbols in city and state seals? Should you omit a cross from your city seal, even though it was founded by a group of <insert christian sect here>?

On the monument issue, I'm pondering. On the symbols in city, state, etc. seals, I say let it stay to reflect the heritage, it really does not do anything more then symbolize that. What are your thoughts?

 

[Billnew]

OK, sort of a follow up question here.

I don't think there should be any 10 commandment monuments put up in courthouses, what about pre-existing ones?

While it is true that our fore-fathers valued separation, many were christians, there were, and still are a lot of christian who were involved in building this nation. Should these monuments be considered historical and left as is?
What are your thoughts?

Before I was a Christian, I was upset with the ordered removal of the 10 comandments from the local Courthouse. Why pay to have this old monument removed? Goverment doesn't have enough money to pay there bills and now were're paying people to remove something that has been there for 50years.
wait, 70years. (Forgot, how old I was.)(to me 50years ago seems like the 30-40's)

Just a waste. I am glad we have money to throw away.

 

[Vylo]

That's my sentiment Bill. I am thinking it is easier just to say "hey don't make any more of these", and leave up the old ones until renovation or something, and then to move them to private property.

 

[kermit]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149197,00.html



There technically is nothing in the Constitution about a seperation of church and state. What people are referring to is a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a church about seperation of church and state. The First Amendment talks about freedom of religion... we have the freedom to choose what religion we want to follow. It doesn't say we have freedom from religion.

Technically there's nothing in the Constitution about Freedom of Religion. That's not to say that the concept isn't there. The combination of the Separation Clause and the Free-Exercise Clause only has one possible logical conclusion, Separation of Church and State.

Personally I see no problem with public displays of religious items. The problem I have is the use of public funds to pay for religious items. Funds are allotted by laws. If a budgetting law allots money for a religious momument that is a violation if the 1st Amendment.

I also think that any existing items should be Grandfathered in. You can't unring a bell so why try.

 

[k]

OK, sort of a follow up question here.

I don't think there should be any 10 commandment monuments put up in courthouses, what about pre-existing ones?

While it is true that our fore-fathers valued separation, many were christians, there were, and still are a lot of christian who were involved in building this nation. Should these monuments be considered historical and left as is?

I am well aware that people of all walks of life helped build this nation, but we do have to acknowledge that christians were and are the bulk of our population.

What about religious symbols in city and state seals? Should you omit a cross from your city seal, even though it was founded by a group of <insert christian sect here>?

On the monument issue, I'm pondering. On the symbols in city, state, etc. seals, I say let it stay to reflect the heritage, it really does not do anything more then symbolize that. What are your thoughts?

For me, progression requires changes, and some are more difficult than others. I think the religious symbols should be removed from cities, courthouses, and such regardless of how long they have been there. Especially considering the history of the US. A cool even flow look at it reveals we have not been a Christian nation historically, or even presently.

I make it analagous to the Confederate flag. I know some people it represents heritage and not hate, but that heritage espoused hate towards African-Americans. Moreover, it's a symbol that creates division instead of unity, just like religious symbols on government property.

Random thoughts from a Boston scrub!

 

[k]

Before I was a Christian, I was upset with the ordered removal of the 10 comandments from the local Courthouse. Why pay to have this old monument removed? Goverment doesn't have enough money to pay there bills and now were're paying people to remove something that has been there for 50years.
wait, 70years. (Forgot, how old I was.)(to me 50years ago seems like the 30-40's)

Just a waste. I am glad we have money to throw away.

But if that spent money helps unite Americans under the common pursuit of equality and liberty, isn't it worth it?

 

[Phylogeny]

Personally, I always thought the 10 commandent lawsuit was a waste of time.....aren't there more pressing things we can do then dilly-dally about whether this constitutes a violation of church and state?

However, I do realize now that if religious symbols were allowed on government property, this can open up a can of worms. What happens when other religions also want their symbols on government property? Seems it can cause a lot of divisions.

I have no problem with acknowledging the fact that Christianity had a huge impact on the development of this country, but I also don't want to have people building government buildings that resembles churches. Is displaying the ten commandments the former or the latter? I can't tell you.....but I don't think it's worth getting the Supreme Court involved.

I've all for religious diversity, so if we decide the 10 commandments can be displayed as a nod to Christianity, shouldn't that mean all other religions are fair game in the future? I mean, it makes sense that Muslims and Jews and Buddhists etc will eventually make contributions to this society....is society as ready to see a monument of the 7 Pillers of Islamic faith as they seem to be ready to see the 10 Commandments on display?