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Ten comandments; Intersting

How Do you feel about the Ten comandments?

  • Ten Comandments should be allowed on Government property.

  • Should be no where near Government property.

  • Don't care, doesn't hurt or help.

  • Get religion out of all Government affairs. Off the money, no prayers before meetings.


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BLESSEDBETHEMEEK said:
Then let the Public choose how the goverment will best serve them.
I honestly think that Aetheist's are afraid to see this cme to a vote and would do everything possible to stop it from taking place.

The use of "Public" here is too broad and it negates the fact that not everyone in the Public agrees on a religion. Again, I must reiterate part of the government's job is to mediate for the public. We must do our best to keep the government as neutral as possible for everyone's benefit.

Iam guessing that Atheists would not want a straight public vote either, and for good reason. Regardless, to want to have a public vote on this particular issue is to regress to the theocracy of 16th century England. America was set up to avoid that type of oppression.

Why is it so important for people to want religious symbols on government property?
 
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Cherub8

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crazyfingers said:
The fact of the matter is that the 1st Amendment applies to the states by way of the 14th amendment as the supreme court has ruled. It doesn't matter when the supreme court made the ruling.
So if the Court ruled the Constitution is worthless and should be thrown out, that would be legitimate? The point is that judicial activism is unconstitutional. Read the Jefferson quotes; Jefferson opposed activism.

Do you really want to argue that the 1st Amendment doesn't apply to the states? Are you prepared to accept the fact that if you make that argument then you must also argue that the states have the power to prohibit freedom of speech, prohibit freedom of the press, prohibit freedom of association, prohibit the right to protest the government, eliminate right to freedom of religion along with the the power to establish compulsory church attendence at the church of the state's choosing? Do you really want the states to have the power to declare the Methodist religion blashamy? Or the Catholic religion blasphamy? Or to outlaw the Baptist chruch?
Irrelevant. All 50 states have guaranteed freedom of the press, speech, et al, written in their Constitutions.

Are you prepared to make that argument? I hope not. But if you wish to argue that the establishment clause does not apply to the states, then you MUST also argue that none of those other fundamental human rights are protected from state power.
A monument or prayer does not violate anyone's rights.
 
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Cherub8

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Maynard Keenan said:
The powers are reserved to the people. The government can't assume the responsibility for itself but the people can commision the government tohandle them for them. The founders didn't anticipate every possible occurance and in a different world the government needs to operate a little differently.

Powers not delegated are left to the States...meaning the Federal government has no business getting involved. Social Security, Medicare, Department of Education, and thousands of other programs are unconstitutional.

As for the issue of changing times, that's why the founders added this part:

Article V said:
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the firstand fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
 
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Gunny

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Supreme Court Hears Arguments in Ten Commandments Cases
[size=-1]Kathleen Rhodes[/size]

[font=Arial, Helvetica][size=-1]Correspondent[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica][size=-1] More than 15 months after Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore lost his job for disobeying a federal court order to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the state courthouse, the larger issue involved is being argued in front of the U.S. Supreme Court.

The high court began to hear oral arguments Wednesday in two appellate cases, but not the one involving Moore, that deal with whether it is constitutional to display Ten Commandments monuments or symbols on public property. The lower court rulings in the two cases appear to contradict each other.

The Thomas Van Orden v. Rick Perry et al. case originated in Texas and revolves around a 6-foot red granite moment located on the grounds of the Texas state Capitol building in Austin. The monument includes a depiction of the Ten Commandments and the words, "I am the Lord Thy God."

Thomas Van Orden, a Viet Nam veteran and lawyer who is now homeless, originally sued Texas Republican Gov. Rick Perry to have the 44-year-old monument removed, arguing that it violated the Establishment Clause of the Constitution's First Amendment. However, the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rejected Van Orden's argument, citing the monument's long history as the reason why it should be maintained.

The Supreme Court will also hear oral arguments in McCreary County, Kentucky, et al, v. The American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky, et al, a case involving two counties in Kentucky -- McCreary and Pulaski - and whether officials should be permitted to hang framed copies of the Ten Commandments in their courthouse lobbies.

Both county courthouse displays are surrounded by historical documents like the Declaration of Independence, but the Sixth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals previously ruled that the Ten Commandments displays amounted to government establishment of religion and as a result, were unconstitutional.

Among those who objected to the Sixth Circuit Court's decision is Bernie Reese, a lawyer who has drafted two legal briefs in favor of the Commandments displays. Tuesday, in comments before the National Press Club, Reese said the Ten Commandments serve as the basis for the laws of the United States and should be recognized as such.

"The Ten Commandments should be permitted to be on display because of their history, their recognition throughout time, but what we're really involved with is looking at the roots, the foundation of this nation, which is contained in the Declaration of Independence," Reese said.

"They are the basis for the Declaration. [The Ten Commandments] has an equal right to be displayed as the Declaration of Independence."

The founders of the United States, he said, "put together a Declaration that recognized God, so therefore, if you want to change things, then go back and change the Declaration."

The Ten Commandments have historical value, Reese argued. "[They] are a memory bank of where we came from, a picture of the past. You rip a memory and a conjunction with the past out of the lives of our young people and you're destroying this nation," Reese said. "There is a connection between history and what's happening now."

Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, used an analogy to describe what he said was the government's endorsement of religion through the Ten Commandments displays.

"If a judge in the state of Kentucky were to put up a sign in his courtroom that said smoke Marlboro Lights, I think everybody who saw it would say 'That judge is promoting the use of tobacco,'" Lynn said. "So why do people think it would be any different when the Kentucky sign is a framed display of the Ten Commandments and the Texas monument at issue ... is a six-foot high monument shaped as tablets and inscribed with the words of Ten Commandments? In my view, there's no difference at all ..."

Lynn told his National Press Club audience that Americans should consider the context and the content of displays in question. "I'd say that ... any reasonable observer would reach the conclusion that the government which owns those displays is embracing, promoting, and endorsing the images and messages that it has deliberately chosen to display," Lynn said, adding that such promotion is unconstitutional.

"It is a religious document. It is a statement for Christians and Jews of the demands of religious law. When governments promote it, they are deliberately advancing a particular religious viewpoint," Lynn continued. "How could anything be more obviously religious?"

Mat Staver, president and general counsel of the Liberty Counsel, will present arguments before the Supreme Court in favor of the Kentucky wall postings. Staver will reportedly propose that a new standard be formulated in cases involving church and state issues. The new standard, according to Staver, would distinguish between government acknowledgement of religion, which is allowed, and government establishment of religion, which is unconstitutional.

Although the Alabama Supreme Court rejected Moore's appeal for reinstatement last April, the former state chief justice has filed his own brief with the U.S. Supreme Court, supporting the two framed displays in Kentucky, according to news reports.

Secular groups like the American Civil Liberties Union and religious groups like the Hindu American Foundation and Anti-Defamation League have reportedly filed briefs with the court arguing against the public display of Ten Commandments symbols.

The U.S. Supreme Court is expected to issue its rulings on the Texas and Kentucky appeals in June.

[/size][/font]
 
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Gunny

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U.S. answers to higher law

By the Rev. Rob Schenck

It could be argued that the Ten Commandments should be publicly displayed for no other reason than that these precepts informed our Founders. Our system of law is based on English Common Law, which had its moral foundation in the Ten Commandments. But there are other reasons for these timeless words to be publicly recognized by Americans.

The Commandments are a constant reminder of a higher moral authority than us. We are not the ultimate arbiters of right and wrong. The image of Moses in the Capitol is a statement that the laws of God are higher than the laws of man. Not all governments agree. In many countries, murder serves a state purpose. Not so here; we believe moral absolutes control governments as much as individuals. We can't change the Commandment against murder because we didn't make it in the first place. So it is with all the Commandments and the laws they effect.

Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens says the Commandments can't be displayed publicly because they reference God. Yet the Declaration of Independence refers to "Nature's God." Our president swears in his oath of office "so help me God." Congress begins its day with a prayer to God. The Supreme Court itself announces every sitting with "God save the United States and this honorable court."

Contrary to what some critics claim, this public acknowledgement of God transcends religious sectarianism and unites us, rather than divides us. Our national motto, carried on our money, is "In God We Trust." We pledge allegiance to "one nation under God." The Ten Commandments simply explain what God requires of us. Jews, Christians and Muslims equally revere the Commandments and nearly every other religious and secular group considers them beneficial for society.

The Founders knew liberty could be afforded only to a people restrained internally by a moral governor. No matter how many laws we have against murder, how many police we have to catch the culprits, how many courts we have to prosecute and punish them and how many prisons we have to lock them up, only a conscience informed by a law greater than a human law can stop a murder before it happens. Displaying the Ten Commandments on public property is an admission by all of us of this truth.

The Rev. Rob Schenck is founder of the Ten Commandments Project in Washington, D.C.
 
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The Ten Commandments have historical value, Reese argued. "[They] are a memory bank of where we came from, a picture of the past. You rip a memory and a conjunction with the past out of the lives of our young people and you're destroying this nation," Reese said. "There is a connection between history and what's happening now."



Since he is claiming there is a connection between history and now, and that we should not rip a memory and a conjunction from our young people, then why isn't he (and others) also arguing for monuments remembering the genocide of Native Americans? (NO, naming pro sports teams after them is not remembering that part of our history, it is mocking it. i.e. Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins.)


It was in 1973 (or '76-can't remember which) that the US officially apologized for Slavery. Why aren't people arguing for monuments remembering that part of our history--one of the most important parts.


I submit the reason why is because those two portions of our history completely reveal how the US is NOT based on the TC, and to remember that part of our history makes it very difficult for self-righteous voices to be heard over the screams of voices passed.


inally, it is not the removal of the TC that is destroying this nation, but rather it is the obvious rebellion to the TC that is destroying this nation.

God Bless America? God has blessed Amercia but our self-righteous abuses of those blessings will be the curse that trumps those blessings.


*neverstop practices ducking flying stones.:p
 
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The Ten Commandments simply explain what God requires of us.


So, according to this, people want to display the TC on government property because the US follows what God requires of us? I mean, that surely must be the argument because why would we want to display the TC without following them? Wouldn't that publicly deface the value of the TC? Wouldn't it publicly reveal hypocrisy in action?

Here are some thoughts on how the US follows the TC:



1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH.--Doesn't the US worship pro athletes, magnificent homes and vehicles, and especially MONEY?

2. You shall not make a graven image.--Doesn't DC have a lot of graven images? Not to mention the rest of the US?

3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain.--Yeah, this NEVER happens:eek:

4. You shall not break the Sabbath.--mmm...why hasn't the US passed legislation that states no employer shall force their employees to work on the Sabbath?

5. You shall not dishonor your parents.--haven't we dishonored those parents who have pleaded with the US to actually follow the TC, and not just claim to?

6. You shall not murder.--unless of course we invent the loophole called WAR. Then there's the other one called Sanctions. This list could go on for too long.

7. You shall not commit adultery--this is one of America's favorite pastime activities. Yes, there is plenty of data to show that more than 50% of married people have committed this act.

8. You shall not steal.--unless of course we realize the "American way of life is not negotiable." The US is constantly stealing peoples' labor, beginning with the African-Americans and continuing to India and too many other countries to list here.

9. You shall not commit perjury.--considering the US president has openly admitted he does not testify, kind of hard to legally pin that one down. Oh, wait, they didn't have courts when this Commandment was implemented, so perjury in this case simply means not to lie. Oh, the US does have that whole "White Lie" scapegoat. It's okay to tell a 'white lie.':scratch:

10. You shall not covet.--wasn't this country based on the coveting of land that belonged to other people? wasn't it based on the coveting of the labor of African-Americans? Doesn't the US still Covet? It would be awesome to see evidence that the US does not Covet. Can anyone provide such evidence?

Another reason we should not support the displaying of the TC is because it reveals how much the US DOES NOT FOLLOW IT.
 
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Paleoconservatarian

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Neverstop said:
So, according to this, people want to display the TC on government property because the US follows what God requires of us? I mean, that surely must be the argument because why would we want to display the TC without following them? Wouldn't that publicly deface the value of the TC? Wouldn't it publicly reveal hypocrisy in action?

Well, it certainly reveals hypocrisy in action, but I think the argument is somewhat faulty. Many Christians carry Bibles around, even read them once in a while, and certainly they consider it sacred. But does that mean they follow it? That they always do what it may require? No, we're sinners. So if we don't, does it devalue the Bible? By no means!
 
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crazyfingers

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Cherub8 said:
So if the Court ruled the Constitution is worthless and should be thrown out, that would be legitimate? The point is that judicial activism is unconstitutional. Read the Jefferson quotes; Jefferson opposed activism.

The definition of judicial activism is whenever they make a decision you don't like.

Irrelevant. All 50 states have guaranteed freedom of the press, speech, et al, written in their Constitutions.

States like Alabama change their constitutions at the drop of a hat.

A monument or prayer does not violate anyone's rights.

Moving the goal post?

Nothing like ignoring the point. The point is government endorsement of a religious point of view. The issue is allowing one religous group to use the government to promote their religion while denying that freedom to members of other groups.
 
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Paleoconservatarian said:
Well, it certainly reveals hypocrisy in action, but I think the argument is somewhat faulty. Many Christians carry Bibles around, even read them once in a while, and certainly they consider it sacred. But does that mean they follow it? That they always do what it may require? No, we're sinners. So if we don't, does it devalue the Bible? By no means!

Good point about the argument. It may help to explain the argument is not based on completely following the TC, but rather is there even an attempt to follow it. Most Christians make an attempt to follow Christ, that is why the Bible is not devalued. The US does not make a respectable attempt at following the TC.
 
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Neverstop said:
Good point about the argument. It may help to explain the argument is not based on completely following the TC, but rather is there even an attempt to follow it. Most Christians make an attempt to follow Christ, that is why the Bible is not devalued. The US does not make a respectable attempt at following the TC.

I see what you mean, and I agree.
 
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crazyfingers

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Cherub8, do you intend to address these issues?


crazyfingers said:
The fact of the matter is that the 1st Amendment applies to the states by way of the 14th amendment as the supreme court has ruled. It doesn't matter when the supreme court made the ruling.

Do you really want to argue that the 1st Amendment doesn't apply to the states? Are you prepared to accept the fact that if you make that argument then you must also argue that the states have the power to prohibit freedom of speech, prohibit freedom of the press, prohibit freedom of association, prohibit the right to protest the government, eliminate right to freedom of religion along with the the power to establish compulsory church attendence at the church of the state's choosing? Do you really want the states to have the power to declare the Methodist religion blashamy? Or the Catholic religion blasphamy? Or to outlaw the Baptist chruch?

Are you prepared to make that argument? I hope not. But if you wish to argue that the establishment clause does not apply to the states, then you MUST also argue that none of those other fundamental human rights are protected from state power.

Given the fact that some states can and do change their constitutions at the drop of a hat, do you really want to argue that states should be able to have blasphamy laws and execute people for not going to church if they decide to do that?
 
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Cherub8

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crazyfingers said:
Cherub8, do you intend to address these issues?

I already did. Please check the last page.

Theoretically, a State could change its Constitution, but the public backlash would be enormous. But that's beside the point. That slim possibility does not justify distorting the Bill of Rights.
 
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Cherub8 said:
I already did. Please check the last page.

And I replied noting that Alabama changes it's constitution at the drop of a hat.

Theoretically, a State could change its Constitution, but the public backlash would be enormous. But that's beside the point. That slim possibility does not justify distorting the Bill of Rights.

And I replied.

Oh really? You realize that the Arkansas House recently voted to repudiate separation between church and state?

Story

Seem to me that your faith in the people is not well placed. I would prefer to have states bound to uphold my basic rights under the US constitution for the very same reason that the Founders insisted on there being a bill or rights before they agreed to ratify the constitution. Never trust the majority to protect the rights of the minority.
 
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Cherub8

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I agree with the legislature of Alabama. That is nothing which should concern you.

What we were talking about is establishing a State church or banning Islam. And as I replied, that isn't going to happen. The social backlash would be enormous.
 
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Cherub8 said:
I agree with the legislature of Alabama. That is nothing which should concern you.

What we were talking about is establishing a State church or banning Islam. And as I replied, that isn't going to happen. The social backlash would be enormous.


The founders didn't accept that argument and neither do I. One can't simply trust government to protect our rights without then spelled out in constitution..
 
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NFSteelers said:
Billnew said:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149197,00.html



There technically is nothing in the Constitution about a seperation of church and state. What people are referring to is a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a church about seperation of church and state. The First Amendment talks about freedom of religion... we have the freedom to choose what religion we want to follow. It doesn't say we have freedom from religion.


We can't establish a national religion.

So if the ten commandments are allowed in court, then every religion has to, by law, have their code there as well. Is there room for all these codes?
 
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The T.C. monument was put up during a period in history where the ten commandments represented the majority's faith, and the national psyche/mindset. It therefore has historical significance.
So i think there are reasons, other than christian/religious, why the monument should not be removed.
We honor and/or remember our history whether or not we agree with what they were. In that vein, the monument represents a period in history, and should be considered as such. I don't think we should consider the monument so much as 'prescriptive' as historical. At the time it was put up, it was definitely prescriptive (as in a law to which people held themselves), and now, understandably it is less so for many people. But that does not mean history must be erased because it is at variance with some people's beliefs.
Now if government was acting based on the T.C., the significance of the monument would clearly be prescriptive, but since government is not doing that, the case is not as strong.
In other words, it is a historical issue, and not so much a religion one, i think.
 
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God's daughter said:
The T.C. monument was put up during a period in history where the ten commandments represented the majority's faith, and the national psyche/mindset. It therefore has historical significance.
So i think there are reasons, other than christian/religious, why the monument should not be removed.
We honor and/or remember our history whether or not we agree with what they were. In that vein, the monument represents a period in history, and should be considered as such. I don't think we should consider the monument so much as 'prescriptive' as historical. At the time it was put up, it was definitely prescriptive (as in a law to which people held themselves), and now, understandably it is less so for many people. But that does not mean history must be erased because it is at variance with some people's beliefs.
Now if government was acting based on the T.C., the significance of the monument would clearly be prescriptive, but since government is not doing that, the case is not as strong.
In other words, it is a historical issue, and not so much a religion one, i think.

So, should we put Native American religious artifacts in courts as well, seeing as this is also the country's history?
 
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God's daughter said:
The T.C. monument was put up during a period in history where the ten commandments represented the majority's faith, and the national psyche/mindset. It therefore has historical significance.
So i think there are reasons, other than christian/religious, why the monument should not be removed.
We honor and/or remember our history whether or not we agree with what they were. In that vein, the monument represents a period in history, and should be considered as such. I don't think we should consider the monument so much as 'prescriptive' as historical. At the time it was put up, it was definitely prescriptive (as in a law to which people held themselves), and now, understandably it is less so for many people. But that does not mean history must be erased because it is at variance with some people's beliefs.
Now if government was acting based on the T.C., the significance of the monument would clearly be prescriptive, but since government is not doing that, the case is not as strong.
In other words, it is a historical issue, and not so much a religion one, i think.

They send a strong religious message that the government is endorsing - something the government is not allowed to do.

Monuments to God or history?

"But either you admit that the Ten Commandments on public turf make an important religious statement or you pretend they are a piece of our secular history. You can be either unconstitutional or hypocritical.
 
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