Temporal Salvation?

[BNR32FAN]

I have shown you many times, you just simply ignore the truth because it refutes your man made doctrine.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Only those who obey the Lord, in which they follow His commandments and doctrine will receive eternal life.


Those who don’t become lost.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

• Keeping His commandments is how we remain in Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• Those who don’t remain in Him are cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6




JLB

So many people can’t see this truth because their doctrines teach them that the scriptures can’t be saying this. So they resort to searching for ways to interpret the scriptures to coincide with their doctrines instead of letting the scriptures themselves define their doctrines.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doug... I could not agree with you more.
There are several places where Jesus told the disciples
that some people were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

Could you please provide any verses that clearly say this?

I did not want to go into all the detail you did...
but you only confirm some were NEVER MEANT
to be "converted" or "forgiven". Thanks.
I am glad we got that settled.

Jim

No, Doug never did provide any verses that clearly teach what he claims.

And the Bible is clear that Christ died for everyone. That alone proves that NO ONE was "never meant to to be saved".

Titus 2:11 proves the opposite.
1 Tim 2:3-6 also proves the opposite.

 

[BNR32FAN]

On the contrary Judas was among those who continued to believe and follow Jesus Christ.


It was not the twelve who turned away from following him.


But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69

• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
• Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

JLB

No I don’t believe Judas ever was a believer. I believe that is what John 6:64 is saying. We know that Judas shad also been stealing from the treasury.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But God predetermined Adam's fall

Let's just use real clear language here. Are you saying that God made Adam fall?

What do you mean by "predetermined"?

To me, it means God, being omniscient, always knew he would fall.

...Adam could do nothing other than what he did. God is the one who decides what the necessary and inevitable outcome will be.
Doug

OK, this seems to mean that God made Adam fall. That is absurd. God is NOT the author of sin. In fact, that is blasphemy to suggest such.

 

[TibiasDad]

I understand your "interpretation"
Now show me a SCRIPTURE that says
unfruitful "sheep" lose their salvation... you cannot.

John 15:1-17, Rom 8:12-13 11:17-24, Heb 6:1-4, 10:26-31, 12:25, 2 Pet 2:20-22, to name a few!

And you ask a illogical question when you ask can" "sheep" lose their salvation" we do not need to show it happening, but rather that is is quite possible for it to happen!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

RickReads said: ↑
The problem with Calvinism is that it all seems so mean spirited and that makes me feel like it`s missing something.

I don't know about Calvinism.
I am just a Bible believer.

If you really know the truth, as a "Bible believer", then you SHOULD be able to discern what isn't the truth. But since you admit you don't know about Calvinism, then what are we to assume?

If it is "mean spirited" for JESUS to say someone is
NOT "His sheep"... then your problem is with JESUS
and not Calvin or me.
Jim

Jesus wasn't saying anything about those not His sheep were "never meant" to be His sheep. That would be absurd. Why did Jesus die for everyone then?

If there are people that God "never meant" to save, then Jesus wouldn't have died for them. And the gospel wouldn't be offered to them. But He DID die for everyone and the gospel of salvation IS offered to everyone.

Unlimited atonement: 2 Cor 5:14,15, 19 1 John 2:2
Salvation is for everyone: Titus 2:11

 

[TibiasDad]

(2) Show me ONE MAN who is NOT "His sheep" and gets saved
You cannot

Both you and me! We are not his sheep until we believe and follow after him when we hear his voice!


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

On the contrary Judas was among those who continued to believe and follow Jesus Christ.

Why haven't you ever proved your claims? John 6:64 and 70,71 refute your claims.

It was not the twelve who turned away from following him.

And one of the 12 was a devil, according to Jesus. Nice way to describe a believer, don'tcha think?

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69

Sweet. Just ignore the next 2 verses in order to preserve your fallacy!

But, before I quote them, focus on the first verse in your quote: Jesus includes those "who did not believe and who would betray Him". All in one phrase. Jesus was clearly indicating that Judas NEVER BELIEVED.

Now for the 2 verses that you conveniently ignored:

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But you still haven't shown where in the Bible one "follows" in order to receive eternal life. Why is that?

I have shown you many times, you just simply ignore the truth because it refutes your man made doctrine.

No, you only think you have showm me. otoh, I HAVE shown you many times the several dozen verses that plainly say that both salvation and eternal life is obtained on the basis of believing, without mentioning any other action.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Beautiful verses, if I do say so myself. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

And John 5;24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11 and 13 all say that eternal life is given to believers. That means WHEN a person believes, they possess eternal life. So, from the MOMENT of saving faith, the believer is promised that they shall never perish.

Only those who obey the Lord, in which they follow His commandments and doctrine will receive eternal life.

To believe this, you must really twist and pervert John 10:27,28 then. Because neither verse teaches or says that you keep claiming.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 15:1-17, Rom 8:12-13 11:17-24, Heb 6:1-4, 10:26-31, 12:25, 2 Pet 2:20-22, to name a few!

And you ask a illogical question when you ask can" "sheep" lose their salvation" we do not need to show it happening, but rather that is is quite possible for it to happen!

Doug

Here's the deal, Doug. You DO need to show it happening, or provide verses that SAY that it CAN happen.

And you haven't. Yet. When do you plan to do so?

 

[TibiasDad]

Darn it Doug...
I just cannot find any Scripture that says God "predetermined"
Adam's fall. Where is that passage?

Jim

I agree, but when you use terminology such as they were "never meant to be saved" you are saying they were predestined.

Doug

 

[BNR32FAN]

On the contrary Judas was among those who continued to believe and follow Jesus Christ.


It was not the twelve who turned away from following him.


But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69

• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
• Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

JLB

I don’t think that anyone would doubt that Judas claimed to believe. Judas pretended to be innocent of betraying Jesus at the Last Supper.

“And they began to discuss among themselves which one of them it might be who was going to do this thing.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, "Surely not I?"”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭14:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 15:1-17, Rom 8:12-13 11:17-24, Heb 6:1-4, 10:26-31, 12:25, 2 Pet 2:20-22, to name a few!

And you ask a illogical question when you ask can" "sheep" lose their salvation" we do not need to show it happening, but rather that is is quite possible for it to happen!

Doug

2 Timothy 2:12 is another good one.

 

[5thKingdom]

2 Timothy 2:12 is another good one.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


The church contains saved wheat and unsaved tares.
The unsaved tares (sown by Satan) often deny Him.
The saved wheat (sown by God) never deny Him.

You need to understand the context of a passages
before you can hope to know the meaning.

Otherwise you are saying Jesus is a LIAR
when He promised to lose NONE of His sheep.

So do you not understand the context or are you
calling Jesus a LIAR?

.

 

[5thKingdom]

I don’t think that anyone would doubt that Judas claimed to believe. Judas pretended to be innocent of betraying Jesus at the Last Supper.

“And they began to discuss among themselves which one of them it might be who was going to do this thing.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, "Surely not I?"”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭14:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

We see unsaved tare CLAIM to be saved wheat all the time.
MOST of the church are unsaved tares.



Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[5thKingdom]

I agree, but when you use terminology such as they were "never meant to be saved" you are saying they were predestined.

Doug

Doug, when I say NEVER MEANT to be saved it is ALWAYS
in a specific context. That context is of fallen men. Adam
was not part of that context so you would have no reason
to assume I was talking about him. Right?

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Both you and me! We are not his sheep until we believe and follow after him when we hear his voice!


Doug

No, you are sadly mistaken there.
We were "His Sheep" (in time, before the foundation of the world)
It is not MAN who decides to become His sheep... that is where
all your confusion and contradictions come from. It is GOD who
elects "His Sheep" before Adam was created. And, since God can
NEVER FAIL to achieve His purpose we were His Sheep when elected.


Seriously... we BOTH do NOT follow a works gospel where we
are the ones who decide to become His Sheep. You are only
speaking for yourself.


I am very comfortable saying we were "His Sheep" before the
foundation of the world.. I believe Paul said the same:
I know you know this... why do you forget?


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Jim

 

[BNR32FAN]

The church contains saved wheat and unsaved tares.
The unsaved tares (sown by Satan) often deny Him.
The saved wheat (sown by God) never deny Him.

This epistle is not written to unsaved tares. It’s not even written to a congregation. It’s written to Timothy. Notice Paul not only includes Timothy as being capable of denying Christ but also includes himself and the result would be that Christ would deny them before The Father.


“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

We see unsaved tare CLAIM to be saved wheat all the time.
MOST of the church are unsaved tares.



Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

I don’t know about most of the church but definitely most of the world will not be saved.

 

[5thKingdom]

RickReads said: ↑
The problem with Calvinism is that it all seems so mean spirited and that makes me feel like it`s missing something.

It was JESUS (not Calvin) that claims some people are NOT
His sheep. Are you saying JESUS is "mean spirited"?

If you really know the truth, as a "Bible believer", then you SHOULD be able to discern what isn't the truth. But since you admit you don't know about Calvinism, then what are we to assume?

Being a "Bible believer" has noting to do with reading Calvin,
and everything to do with reading and submitting and obeying
the Words of Christ. I am a "Christian" not a "Calvinist".
I hope you know the difference.

What are you to assume?
Assume I say what I mean and mean what I say.
Nothing more. Can you do that?

Jesus wasn't saying anything about those not His sheep were "never meant" to be His sheep. That would be absurd. Why did Jesus die for everyone then?

Jesus did not die for everyone... or Hell would be empty
because no sin must be paid TWICE. What verse can you
offer that says Jesus PAID for the sins of everyone ever born?

If there are people that God "never meant" to save, then Jesus wouldn't have died for them. And the gospel wouldn't be offered to them. But He DID die for everyone and the gospel of salvation IS offered to everyone.

Correct. Jesus did not die for everyone... He died for "His sheep".
And the Gospel is NOT a "free offer" it is a proclamation of the
finished work of Christ and a command to repent.

A proclamation and command is NOT a "free offer"

It is GOD who decides who are "His sheep"... not man.
And GOD decides (in time) before the foundation of the world.
That is what JESUS said and that is what Paul said... do you
think they were LYING?

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Unlimited atonement: 2 Cor 5:14,15, 19 1 John 2:2
Salvation is for everyone: Titus 2:11

If salvation is for everyone then GOD completely FAILED
to save all of "His sheep"... and that is blasphemy.


There is a CONTEXT for the verses you cited.
You cannot hope to understand the MEANING of the verses
when you do not understand the CONTEXT.


For example: 1 John 2:2 is talking about ALL of "His Sheep"
It is certainly NOT talking about people who JESUS SAID
were NOT "His Sheep"... or else you are calling Jesus a LIAR.


Jesus came to save "His people" from their sins.
Jesus came to save "His sheep" and will lose NONE


Jesus specifically taught some men were NEVER MEANT to be
saved because they were NOT "His sheep".


If you REJECT the teaching of Jesus.... then you follow
another gospel. And THAT is why you have confusion
and contradictions.


MAN does not decide who are "His sheep"
GOD decides/elects who are "His sheep"
At least that is what the BIBLE says.


Jim