Temporal Salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

Some who are I n Christ, can indeed be removed from Christ

"indeed", huh? Where in the world did you make that up from?

and cast into the fire and burned, if they are ignorant of God’s word that teaches us to remain in Christ.

Since you believe that 'remain in Christ' refers to our sealing with the Holy Spirit, then you cannot believe Eph 1:13,14, because the sealing with the Spirit GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption.

And you cannot explain how any of God's GUARANTEES can be broken. God keeps His promises.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Don't bother. Abiding refers to fellowship.

Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Yes, instructed to be in fellowship with Christ.

No human being has the power or authority to remove themselves from Christ. That is a very absurd idea. And totally unbiblical.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 3:24

Right.

 

[TibiasDad]

Well, since you know that sin is no longer a problem, why do you Arminians keep pushing the idea that a sinful lifestyle will get a believer into hell then??

Those with a sinful lifestyle are not, indeed cannot be, believers. Those who sin and do not repent die! (Ezk 18:4, Rom 8:12-13, 1 John 2:3-6) Believers purify themselves even as Jesus is pure. (1 John 3:3)

Jesus Christ has conquered sin and given us the power to meet the full requirements of the law, that is, to stop sinning, (Rom 8:4) and if we do not we are none of his! (1 John 3:10)

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those with a sinful lifestyle are not, indeed cannot be, believers.

Where, perchance, do you get you ideas from? Because there are no verses or passages that say this. In fact, quite the opposite:

1 Cor 5-
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.
2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?
3For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.
4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,
5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

2 Cor 12-
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

2 Thess 3-
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.
15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

All of these passages were addressed to believers.

Those who sin and do not repent die!

Why do you assume "death" means eternal death? The NT is full of examples of believers who died physically under God's hand of discipline because of their sins/lifestyle.

(Ezk 18:4, Rom 8:12-13, 1 John 2:3-6) Believers purify themselves even as Jesus is pure. (1 John 3:3)

No, believers ARE purified (passive voice) when they confess their sins. 1 John 1:9

Jesus Christ has conquered sin and given us the power to meet the full requirements of the law, that is, to stop sinning, (Rom 8:4) and if we do not we are none of his! (1 John 3:10)
Doug

Nope. Every believer has been SEALED with the Spirit, which is a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14

How would you twist that into something it doesn't say?

 

[TibiasDad]

Where, perchance, do you get you ideas from? Because there are no verses or passages that say this. In fact, quite the opposite:

Why do you ask such foolish questions when I cite the passages that express the ideas perfectly?

Now to your supposed "opposite scriptures: Highlights mine...

1 Cor 5-
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.
2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?
3For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.
4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,
5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

Paul is chastising the church as a whole, but especially the leadership for tolerating and allowing someone who claims to be a Christian but is doing something so flagrantly sinful that even the pagan religions would deem appalling to remain within the church. Of course he's writing to believers, but he is writing about "the wicked person" that they are accepting into their fellowship as a believer, when Paul says he is anything but! People living immoral lifestyles are not believers! This is not opposite of my assertion, this is my assertion! Strike one!

2 Cor 12-
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

This is the same issue as in 1 Corinthians; the church's tolerance of people living in unrepentant "impurity, sexual sin and debauchery "! There is also, much like our arguments over these issues, A great deal of "discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder" because of those who refuse expelled these sinners out of the fellowship. The bottom line is that this type of behavior is not Christian and should never be tolerated as consistent with children of God. So again, this is not opposite of of my assertion, but rather is my assertion! Strike two!

2 Thess 3-
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.
15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

Let's look at the whole context of you quotation:

2 Thess 3:6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching a you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

11We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat. 13And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.

14Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

This is totally different than the Corinthian situation for a couple of reasons:
1) These are not grievous and overly sensual sins and,
2) Paul does not call them wicked and demand their expulsion from the church. These are maturity issues, not outright sin! But to be sure, if these sins of immaturity are not repented of and corrected, they will lead to other inconsistent behaviors and end up in the same heap as the sexually immoral! Not being of a mind to work is just as unChristian as sexual immorality. So this isn't opposite of my assertion either, but rather is my assertion!

Strike three, you're out!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Why do you assume "death" means eternal death? The NT is full of examples of believers who died physically under God's hand of discipline because of their sins/lifestyle.

I assume nothing! I take each passage in its own right, and 99.9% of the time the context is talking about spiritual death and spiritual life eternal! Hermeneutically, if death is contrasted with eternal life, it must be interpreted as eternal/spiritual death.

No, believers ARE purified (passive voice) when they confess their sins. 1 John 1:9

All who have this hope in him purify themselves,( ἁγνίζει ἑαυτὸν, a PAI with a reflective pronoun, which is essentially the same as a middle voice) just as he is pure. (1 John 3:3). Deal with it! We purify ourselves by confession and repentance and Jesus purified us by forgiveness and purification/sanctification. We submit to his authority so he can do what we cannot.

Nope. Every believer has been SEALED with the Spirit, which is a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption. Eph 1:14

How would you twist that into something it doesn't say?

Yep, and if one doesn't repent of sinful behavior then he no longer is a believer, because children of God do not, "continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." (1 John 3:9-10)


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Where, perchance, do you get you ideas from? Because there are no verses or passages that say this. In fact, quite the opposite:"

Why do you ask such foolish questions when I cite the passages that express the ideas perfectly?

First, you have NOT cited any passages that express your ideas perfectly.

Second, so my question wasn't foolish.

This is what you had stated:
"Those with a sinful lifestyle are not, indeed cannot be, believers."
So, just provide ONE passage that so "perfectly expresses" that idea.

Now to your supposed "opposite scriptures: Highlights mine...

Paul is chastising the church as a whole, but especially the leadership for tolerating and allowing someone who claims to be a Christian but is doing something so flagrantly sinful that even the pagan religions would deem appalling to remain within the church.

Opinion. Nothing in the passages in 1 Corinthians about "phony believers", or 'professors' but not 'possessers'.

Of course he's writing to believers, but he is writing about "the wicked person" that they are accepting into their fellowship as a believer, when Paul says he is anything but!

No, Paul did NOT say that the wicked person was "anything but". It's your opinion getting in the way of your ablity to read the passage objectively.

People living immoral lifestyles are not believers!

There's that opinionated statement again. And without any evidence from Scriptuire.

This is not opposite of my assertion, this is my assertion! Strike one!

You keep this kind of response up, and you'll only strike out.

This is the same issue as in 1 Corinthians; the church's tolerance of people living in unrepentant "impurity, sexual sin and debauchery "! There is also, much like our arguments over these issues, A great deal of "discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder" because of those who refuse expelled these sinners out of the fellowship. The bottom line is that this type of behavior is not Christian and should never be tolerated as consistent with children of God. So again, this is not opposite of of my assertion, but rather is my assertion! Strike two!

All I see here is just more of your opinion. There is NOTHING in the passage about "false brethren", "professors but not possessors".

You're mighty close to striking OUT.

Let's look at the whole context of you quotation:

2 Thess 3:6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching a you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
11We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat. 13And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.
14Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

This is totally different than the Corinthian situation for a couple of reasons:
1) These are not grievous and overly sensual sins and,

Right. Only what's "grievous and overly sensual" to YOU is what SHOULD keep such believers out of heaven.

2) Paul does not call them wicked and demand their expulsion from the church. These are maturity issues, not outright sin!

Then you really don't understand what sin is.

v.6 - every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching a you received from us

How is that not sin to you? You noted you are a pastor. How many of these types would you want in your church?

But to be sure, if these sins of immaturity are not repented of and corrected, they will lead to other inconsistent behaviors and end up in the same heap as the sexually immoral!

Ah, right. Once they reach the level of offending YOU, it's off to hell with them.

Not being of a mind to work is just as unChristian as sexual immorality. So this isn't opposite of my assertion either, but rather is my assertion!

Strike three, you're out!

Uh, no. But you sure did.

Not ANY mention of those in the passages of not being saved believers. Or of believers going to hell.

What you believe is a fantasy of your own opinions. iow, what offends YOU should end up in hell.

Fortunately, though God is offended at all sin, His grace is sufficient for ALL of His children.

Your fantasy ideas about God's children going to hell is absurd and surely OFFENDS God Himself.

So you might just want to look over your shoulder from time to time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Why do you assume "death" means eternal death? The NT is full of examples of believers who died physically under God's hand of discipline because of their sins/lifestyle."

I assume nothing! I take each passage in its own right, and 99.9% of the time the context is talking about spiritual death and spiritual life eternal!

Prove your opinion here.

This is what I said:
"Why do you assume "death" means eternal death? The NT is full of examples of believers who died physically under God's hand of discipline because of their sins/lifestyle."

Hermeneutically, if death is contrasted with eternal life, it must be interpreted as eternal/spiritual death.

The examples I gave you didn't contrast death with eternal life. So your answer is another STRIKE OUT!!

All who have this hope in him purify themselves,( ἁγνίζει ἑαυτὸν, a PAI with a reflective pronoun, which is essentially the same as a middle voice) just as he is pure. (1 John 3:3). Deal with it! We purify ourselves by confession and repentance and Jesus purified us by forgiveness and purification/sanctification. We submit to his authority so he can do what we cannot.

That's what I answered to you previously. Didn't you read it?

Yep, and if one doesn't repent of sinful behavior then he no longer is a believer

Well, another wild opinion! Please back up your claims with Scripture that says what you keep opining.

because children of God do not, "continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Oh, I see. You DO believe in sinless perfection then. Once saved, no more sin, huh? Is that your position?

Well, 1 John 3 does require a bit of spiritual discernment. John was describing a believer who is living from the sphere of his new nature. iow, when filled with the Spirit.

But I suspect your view is that because all believers are indwelt with the Spirit, that's just the "same thing" as being filled with the Spirit.

That cannot be true because the Bible tells us plainly that all believers have the Spirit (Gal 3:2,5), and believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18).

So if that is your opinion, the Bible refutes you soundly.

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." (1 John 3:9-10)
Doug

Actually the verse does have "God" in it. Read the Greek. It says "is not of God", referring to behavior. The verse clearly doesn't say "is not a child of God". The NIV failed to translate it correctly.

When a believer sin, their behavior clearly is "not of God".

btw, I had asked you and GDL to provide an explanation of how to determine FACTUALLY between a present customary from a gnomic.

Since neither of you has done that, plus neither did Wallace in his text, I will conclude that they can't be differentiated.

So we're back to the basic meaning of the present tense, and aorist.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

It just depends on your perspective of salvation. A person can be on the path to salvation and later turn away from that path and that person would not receive the salvation they would’ve received if they had remained on the path to salvation. So in that sense the person lost what he would’ve received.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I assume nothing! I take each passage in its own right, and 99.9% of the time the context is talking about spiritual death and spiritual life eternal! Hermeneutically, if death is contrasted with eternal life, it must be interpreted as eternal/spiritual death.



All who have this hope in him purify themselves,( ἁγνίζει ἑαυτὸν, a PAI with a reflective pronoun, which is essentially the same as a middle voice) just as he is pure. (1 John 3:3). Deal with it! We purify ourselves by confession and repentance and Jesus purified us by forgiveness and purification/sanctification. We submit to his authority so he can do what we cannot.



Yep, and if one doesn't repent of sinful behavior then he no longer is a believer, because children of God do not, "continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." (1 John 3:9-10)


Doug

Amen brother Doug I believe that is Paul’s message in Ephesians 4 & 5

I see so many people quoting Ephesians 4:30 out of context completely ignoring the entire message surrounding it.


“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way,

that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-20, 22-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[FreeGrace2]

The folly of Arminians is that God disowns His children because of behavior that Christ died for, and consigns them to eternal death, even though He gave them eternal life.

That is worse than absurd.

Instead, the Bible clearly teaches that when God's child rebels, He disciplines them, which is painful, and if that doesn't get their attention, He simply brings them home.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I see so many people quoting Ephesians 4:30 out of context completely ignoring the entire message surrounding it.

Yet, this poster doesn't even try to explain how quoting a single verse is "out of context". Nor can he explain how the surrounding context somehow changes the very clear command for believers to NOT grieve the Spirit. The context is sin, and so grieving the Spirit deals with sin. Obviously.

 

[WordSword]

It just depends on your perspective of salvation. A person can be on the path to salvation and later turn away from that path and that person would not receive the salvation they would’ve received if they had remained on the path to salvation. So in that sense the person lost what he would’ve received.

Hi and appreciate your interesting comment! Myself, I see that one can only choose between the broad or narrow way (Mat 7:13. 14), i.e. one cannot choose back and forth (if that's what your mean). If one appears to profess the narrow way and eventually ceases to profess it, this manifests he never chose to profess genuinely. One can think they genuinely believe, but latter be proven to sow they didn't believe.

 

[TibiasDad]

First, you have NOT cited any passages that express your ideas perfectly.

Just to remind you, this is what I said:

Those with a sinful lifestyle are not, indeed cannot be, believers. Those who sin and do not repent die! (Ezk 18:4, Rom 8:12-13, 1 John 2:3-6) Believers purify themselves even as Jesus is pure. (1 John 3:3)

Jesus Christ has conquered sin and given us the power to meet the full requirements of the law, that is, to stop sinning, (Rom 8:4) and if we do not we are none of his! (1 John 3:10)

You, however, choose not do deal with the evidence (as is your evident habit) before you and sweep them away with a snide comment asserting that they don't say what I assert (which is another evident habit).

Ezk 18:4 The soul that sins shall die!

Rom 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:12-13 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God a is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

1 John 3:10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Each and every one of these say explicitly what I have asserted, namely, that those who continue to sin and do not repent and stop sinning are not children of God.

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

If one appears to profess the narrow way and eventually ceases to profess it, this manifests he never chose to profess genuinely.

Will will ANY Arminian quote a verse that actually teaches this idea?

One can think they genuinely believe, but latter be proven to sow they didn't believe.

If anyone "genuinely believes" something, anything, you can be sure they DO believe it.

No one can "genuinely believe" something but not really believe it. That's impossible.

The issue in the Bible is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. The MOMENT a person does this, this is what happens:

1. they are justified Rom 5:1
2. they won't be condemned John 3:18, 2 Thess 2:12
3. they are sealed with the Spirit, which GUARANTEES their inheritance for the day of redemption Eph 1:14
4. they become a new creature 2 Cor 5:17
5. they are a child of God John 1:12, Gal 3:26

Now, to believe what you claim, you are going to have to provide verses that very clearly UN-do the 5 points above. All of them.

Or show any verse that says that anyone who is justifed, or sealed, or a new creature, or a child of God, can END UP in hell.

Otherwise, there is no reason to believe what you claim.

Salvation isn't like a coin in your pocket, that you can lose. Many things occur that CANNOT BE UNDONE.

Or, prove that they can, by quoting verses that actually say so.

 

[TibiasDad]

The examples I gave you didn't contrast death with eternal life. So your answer is another STRIKE OUT!!

1) You didn't give any examples to my recollection!
2) I was making a general statement about proper hermeneutical practice. If you had given examples, then we could determine if they were physical or spiritual death in the context! But as is par for the course, all you give is your own opinion with no scripturally or logically sound arguments in support of your assertions.

That's what I answered to you previously. Didn't you read it?

This is what I said:

All who have this hope in him purify themselves,( ἁγνίζει ἑαυτὸν, a PAI with a reflective pronoun, which is essentially the same as a middle voice) just as he is pure. (1 John 3:3). Deal with it! We purify ourselves by confession and repentance and Jesus purified us by forgiveness and purification/sanctification. We submit to his authority so he can do what we cannot.

But this is what you said in reply:

No, believers ARE purified (passive voice) when they confess their sins. 1 John 1:9

This does not say: "We purify ourselves by confession and repentance and Jesus purified us by forgiveness and purification/sanctification. We submit to his authority so he can do what we cannot." You were attempting to deny my citation of 1 John 3:3 base on 1 John 1:9 using the passive voice and not the PAI as in 3:3.

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"First, you have NOT cited any passages that express your ideas perfectly."

Just to remind you, this is what I said:
"Those with a sinful lifestyle are not, indeed cannot be, believers. Those who sin and do not repent die! (Ezk 18:4, Rom 8:12-13, 1 John 2:3-6) Believers purify themselves even as Jesus is pure. (1 John 3:3)

Jesus Christ has conquered sin and given us the power to meet the full requirements of the law, that is, to stop sinning, (Rom 8:4) and if we do not we are none of his! (1 John 3:10)"

Sadly, none of these verses say what you claim. I say sadly, because you think they do.

You, however, choose not do deal with the evidence (as is your evident habit) before you and sweep them away with a snide comment asserting that they don't say what I assert (which is another evident habit).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read what you say and compare with any verse you've quoted to easily see that no verse that you quote says what you claim.

Ezk 18:4 The soul that sins shall die!

I invite you to examine the context. The chapter is about sin.

13 He lends at interest and takes a profit. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

This verse cannot be about eternal death. Rather, it is about capital punishment.

18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

Again, capital punishment, not eternal death.

Rom 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Says nothing about eternal death.

Rom 8:12-13 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

The problem is one of lack of discernment. Those believers who live according to the flesh will certainly die. But not eternal death, as you presume. Rather, they will suffer the discipline of physical death. I've already shown you many verses that support this.

You simply wave off any idea that God will discipline His child with physical death, even though the Bible has many examples of it.

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God a is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

This is about confidence, not how to stay saved.

1 John 3:10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

I've already corrected v.10. Go to the Greek and note that there is no mention of God in it. It says "not of God". So, all sin is "not of God".

So, when YOU sin, your actions are "not of God". See?

Each and every one of these say explicitly what I have asserted, namely, that those who continue to sin and do not repent and stop sinning are not children of God.
Doug

I just refuted your "assertions".

 

[FreeGrace2]

1) You didn't give any examples to my recollection!

It would be helpful if you paid a bit more attention to my posts.

2) I was making a general statement about proper hermeneutical practice. If you had given examples, then we could determine if they were physical or spiritual death in the context! But as is par for the course, all you give is your own opinion with no scripturally or logically sound arguments in support of your assertions.

Examples of "death" that are NOT eternal:
1 Cor 5:5
1 Cor 10:1-11
1 Cor 11:30
Acts 5:1-10
1 Tim 1:19,20

This is what I said:
All who have this hope in him purify themselves,( ἁγνίζει ἑαυτὸν, a PAI with a reflective pronoun, which is essentially the same as a middle voice) just as he is pure. (1 John 3:3). Deal with it! We purify ourselves by confession and repentance and Jesus purified us by forgiveness and purification/sanctification. We submit to his authority so he can do what we cannot.

But this is what you said in reply:
"No, believers ARE purified (passive voice) when they confess their sins. 1 John 1:9"

This does not say: "We purify ourselves by confession and repentance and Jesus purified us by forgiveness and purification/sanctification.

Oops! My bad. Of course 1 Jn 1:9 is active voice purification.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi and appreciate your interesting comment! Myself, I see that one can only choose between the broad or narrow way (Mat 7:13. 14), i.e. one cannot choose back and forth (if that's what your mean). If one appears to profess the narrow way and eventually ceases to profess it, this manifests he never chose to profess genuinely. One can think they genuinely believe, but latter be proven to sow they didn't believe.

Bless you friend. Jesus said in the parable of the sower that some will believe and fall away. He also said in John 15:6 that some will not abide/remain in Him.

 

[WordSword]

Will will ANY Arminian quote a verse that actually teaches this idea?

I'll try this from 1Jo 2:19. "They went out from us, but they were not of us": These are those who professed Christianity to others, but eventually showed they did not have faith, or the would have continued.

If anyone "genuinely believes" something, anything, you can be sure they DO believe it.

You merely misunderstood me, my comment was different from what you've indicated, which was "if anyone think or believes they are being genuine," not "if anyone genuinely believes."

The issue in the Bible is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. The MOMENT a person does this, this is what happens:

1. they are justified Rom 5:1
2. they won't be condemned John 3:18, 2 Thess 2:12
3. they are sealed with the Spirit, which GUARANTEES their inheritance for the day of redemption Eph 1:14
4. they become a new creature 2 Cor 5:17
5. they are a child of God John 1:12, Gal 3:26

Now, to believe what you claim, you are going to have to provide verses that very clearly UN-do the 5 points above. All of them.

Or show any verse that says that anyone who is justifed, or sealed, or a new creature, or a child of God, can END UP in hell.

Of course I'm in total agreement here, and my point is that one who is truly saved will show it by a godly lifestyle that will be permanent.

 

[WordSword]

Bless you friend. Jesus said in the parable of the sower that some will believe and fall away. He also said in John 15:6 that some will not abide/remain in Him.

Thanks, God's blessings to you also! In John 15:2, the phrase "in me" is the key thought of the phrase, and some can be in Christ as an Apostle (Judas) or disciple and not have faith in Him, as one commentator explains - Gill:

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit,...." There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to be in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."