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Teach me why I should believe in evolution.

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notto

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Yet big differences in forms are not due to genes.

And on what do you base this conclusion. On what do you base any of your conclusions?

Homeobox genes are known to control body plan.

What 'big difference' are you referring to that is not due to genes? Can you provide a specific difference for us to discuss and let us know why you came to the conclusion that it was not due to genes?
 
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JohnR7

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Just think of the development of the DNA as the body from dust-evolution-then God breathed the breate of life, which directly became the spirit of man, into that body about 6000 years ago and when it made contact with the body the soul life was created. You see all men have two lives: the soul life and the spirit life.

Sounds like your blending the GAP theory and TE together into one.
 
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Sojourner<><

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As a guy with a degree in physics maybe I can try to clear up something about the second law of thermodynamics.

It states that total entropy on a closed system will increase over time.

That is ALL it states.

Why does this not prevent mutations?

Because your cells (and their genes) are not closed systems. Your body is constantly gaining energy, and the vast majority of it is from the sun. Plants get energy directly from the sun, animals get energy from plants and we get energy from both.

This energy is "stored" in chemicals that our bodies can break down. This energy is used to reproduce cells -- and in the copying of DNA, there are often small uncorrected errors. Note that when I say "error" it doesn't mean "less information." The new DNA strand still codes for SOMETHING -- just something DIFFERENT. Often it's damaging or helpful to the organism, but even more often it's initially neutral.

Alternately, radiation or some chemicals can cause mutations by applying energy directly to the DNA. This is where many point mutations come from.

Anyway, I'm getting a bit off track -- these are important points, but we're talking about thermodynamics here. Remember that the second law only states that entropy increases in a CLOSED system. That means a system in which no energy can enter or leave. Since we get most of our energy directly or indirectly from the sun, the Earth is NOT a closed system.

If you look at the total entropy of the solar system, it's increasing at a MUCH higher rate than any entropy on Earth is decreasing. Quite simply, 99.999+% of the energy emitted by the sun is spread out into space while only a tiny fraction is used by Earth to reproduce organisms.

There is no violation of the second law if entropy decreases in one place as long as it increases as much or more in another place.

The rest of your discussion about mutations is very valid, but just try to understand that the second law of thermodynamics is NEVER violated on Earth -- not because entropy always increases on Earth (it doesn't) but because it always increases in the solar system.

About Smidlee -- he's throwing red herrings all over the place. You're welcome to debate with him too, but just be aware that he's not representing mainstream creationist OR evolutionist ideas. He keeps claiming that DNA has very little to do with an organism's form and that an organism's consciousness can change it's genes whenever it likes. Note that this doesn't just apply to humans -- he's talking about some undefined and unobserved consiousness held by all plants and animals... Needless to say, it's not mainstream ANYTHING -- more of a conspiracy theory since it's claiming that absence of evidence of this conscioiusness is evidence FOR the crazy idea.


Thanks for the response. Perhaps you can help me to better understand how the second law of thermodynamics applies to evolution.

Here are two thought experiments that should demonstrate how I understand the basic principle of the law:

Scenario A (the closed system):

Imagine a box, separated by a partition directly down the center which divides it into two portions. Now one side contains particles of gas moving about at a constant velocity (for simplicity's sake) and the other is a complete vacuum. If we were to remove the partition, the particles would spread out within the entire space of the box and the entropy of both halves would reach equilibrium. If the partition were to be slid back into place, the entropy of the two halves should remain the same.

Scenario B - the open system:

Ok now think about the same box but without the center partition. Inside the box there are a small number of gas particles at low concentration and low temperature (low entropy) and outside the box there is a much higher concentration of particles at higher temperature (high entropy). In this scenario we can consider the box's surroundings to be an infinite reservoir. Remove a side of the box and the entropy within and without will reach equilibrium irreversibly just as in scenario A.

I'd suspect that the most formal sources of information on this law apply specifically to thermodynamic systems and the transmission of heat only. However, what is clearly shown in these demonstrations is that the law describes the principle of irreversibility which is intuitively applicable in other ways whether that be the transmission of heat, the process of osmosis or even the unquantifiable phenomenon of a defiant toddler mixing together different colors of play dough (It doesn't matter how many times you tell him not to do it, you know that play dough is gonna get mixed).

Ok so 2LoT should then apply even to open systems right? But how is it that life can exist? Because of Maxwell's demon. Life pushes entropy out of itself, for a while and then it is consumed irreversibly.

Should I just jump to conclusions now and say that evolution can't work because it would violate the 2nd law? It doesn't seem that way to me...

Think of a species of black birds that becomes completely isolated in a perfect environment for its survival. Given time and chance, it may be possible that one or more birds develops a small minute change in its genetic code which alters the color of its feathers to yellow. Now, since the environment is already ideal the color yellow does not affect the bird's chance of survival one bit. It lives and breeds at its normal rate (assuming that color has no bearing on courtship). But how does this affect the population? Well, according to the principle of irreversibility the differences of genetic information between the black birds and yellow birds should somehow move toward equilibrium, and since there is a very small population of yellow birds as compared to black birds, it should hardly make a dent. The majority would remain black. Given enough time, however, and enough variation and the colors might even become mottled.

Now, let's add in Maxwell's demon by isolating the black bird population in a scorching hot desert region. Suddenly the change in feather color might be just enough to turn the tables in favor of yellow birds.

So... what's the point? Survival of the fittest should easily cause change and reduce entropy within the genetic information of a population, but can it produce increased complexity? Certainly only if a change were significant enough to fuel selection.

Here comes irreducable complexity - if a fish were by slight modification of its genetic structure to grow a bone and that bone were to become a nub, and that nub theoretically managed to shoot out and become a leg, how is it that the genetic code for the nub or even the seemingly useless bone that came before it were able to enable Maxwell's demon? I thought mutations, were supposed to happen in small increments but from what I have learned so far it looks like it would take nothing less than a very large amount of genetic code to produce an appendage useful enough to kickstart the selection process. And if that is true, the odds that such a large amount of coherent code could arise nearly spontaneously would be astronomical. So to suggest that this has happened countless times with all of the species of life on earth just boggles my mind. How is it possible? Does any body know?
 
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shernren

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I hope I won't offend you by saying this, Deamiter, but personally I don't think the argument that "Earth is an open system, therefore 2LoT doesn't hold" is at all helpful. Creationist 2LoT misunderstandings aren't concerned about the actual biochemical entropy present in molecules of DNA, they stem from the basic error of underqualifying the "entropy = disorder" metaphor. "Entropy increases" therefore "disorder increases" therefore "DNA information should code for more disorderly creatures, not less disorderly, as time passes" and all of a sudden we're using a Creationist 2nd Law of Info-Thermo-Anti-Evo-Dynamics instead of the actual 2LoT which holds in the physical universe. I do get your point that in a roundabout way, invalidating the 2LoT by emphasizing that Earth is an open system does give information about DNA (namely where does the energy to mutate DNA come from?) but AFAIK it would be more useful to emphasize that thermodynamic entropy is simply not a concept that you can naively apply to bio-information.

To Sojourner: Evolution has always considered the evolution of complex structures as an accumulation of incremental developments. A nub of a leg, for example, might have helped that ancient fish by allowing its fins to move more strongly (having more muscle). Some apparently irreducibly-complex (IC) structures may have evolved to be that way because of loss of scaffolding and other similar phenomena. Why don't you name some structure which you consider to be too IC to have been evolved, and then we'll see what the current literature on evolution has to say about it.
 
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notto

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I thought mutations, were supposed to happen in small increments but from what I have learned so far it looks like it would take nothing less than a very large amount of genetic code to produce an appendage useful enough to kickstart the selection process. And if that is true, the odds that such a large amount of coherent code could arise nearly spontaneously would be astronomical. So to suggest that this has happened countless times with all of the species of life on earth just boggles my mind. How is it possible? Does any body know?

This is where you misconception is. It is not as if all of this mutation happens at once or in one individual. It happens through a series of small, beneficial mutations. If it provides benefit to the individual, they will pass it on to the population.

Don't forget, only the outcome seems coherent and spontaneous. What we don't see is all the random mutations that don't provide benefit or even cause death. These don't get passed on but they happen just the same. It is the hindsight that makes it look as clean and amazing as it does.

The mutation process does not violate the 2nds law because each mutation responsible is like the ones you have in your body right now. We can observe these types of mutations and know they can make the types of changes that the theory of evolution suggests. The environment determines if they are beneficial or not and there is nothing more 'complex' about one compared to the other.

The effect of natural selection (another process that doesn't violate the 2nd law) causes the accumulation of small mutations into larger transforming traits.

As for Maxwells Demon and evolution, you are misapplying it. The 2nd law only applys to the actual physical mechansisms, not their outcome. Your first example did that, you second did not.
 
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Assyrian

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Thanks for the response. Perhaps you can help me to better understand how the second law of thermodynamics applies to evolution.

Here are two thought experiments that should demonstrate how I understand the basic principle of the law:

Scenario A (the closed system):

Imagine a box, separated by a partition directly down the center which divides it into two portions. Now one side contains particles of gas moving about at a constant velocity (for simplicity's sake) and the other is a complete vacuum. If we were to remove the partition, the particles would spread out within the entire space of the box and the entropy of both halves would reach equilibrium. If the partition were to be slid back into place, the entropy of the two halves should remain the same.

Scenario B - the open system:

Ok now think about the same box but without the center partition. Inside the box there are a small number of gas particles at low concentration and low temperature (low entropy) and outside the box there is a much higher concentration of particles at higher temperature (high entropy). In this scenario we can consider the box's surroundings to be an infinite reservoir. Remove a side of the box and the entropy within and without will reach equilibrium irreversibly just as in scenario A.

I'd suspect that the most formal sources of information on this law apply specifically to thermodynamic systems and the transmission of heat only. However, what is clearly shown in these demonstrations is that the law describes the principle of irreversibility which is intuitively applicable in other ways whether that be the transmission of heat, the process of osmosis or even the unquantifiable phenomenon of a defiant toddler mixing together different colors of play dough (It doesn't matter how many times you tell him not to do it, you know that play dough is gonna get mixed).
Now consider a large box filled with air, a nice high entropy system. In the corner is a small container of salt water, again fairly high entropy Na+ and Cl- spread throughout the solution. The lid is removed. Come back a week later and there has been a big increase in entropy, with the water evaporated and its molecules scattered throughout the box as water vapour.

However in the small container we find salt crystals, highly ordered and low entropy. While the entropy of the whole system has increased, the entropy of the salt has decreased dramatically.



Ok so 2LoT should then apply even to open systems right? But how is it that life can exist? Because of Maxwell's demon. Life pushes entropy out of itself, for a while and then it is consumed irreversibly.

Should I just jump to conclusions now and say that evolution can't work because it would violate the 2nd law? It doesn't seem that way to me...

Think of a species of black birds that becomes completely isolated in a perfect environment for its survival. Given time and chance, it may be possible that one or more birds develops a small minute change in its genetic code which alters the color of its feathers to yellow. Now, since the environment is already ideal the color yellow does not affect the bird's chance of survival one bit. It lives and breeds at its normal rate (assuming that color has no bearing on courtship). But how does this affect the population? Well, according to the principle of irreversibility the differences of genetic information between the black birds and yellow birds should somehow move toward equilibrium, and since there is a very small population of yellow birds as compared to black birds, it should hardly make a dent. The majority would remain black. Given enough time, however, and enough variation and the colors might even become mottled.

Now, let's add in Maxwell's demon by isolating the black bird population in a scorching hot desert region. Suddenly the change in feather color might be just enough to turn the tables in favor of yellow birds.

So... what's the point? Survival of the fittest should easily cause change and reduce entropy within the genetic information of a population, but can it produce increased complexity? Certainly only if a change were significant enough to fuel selection.
Think of two people playing dice. The game is fair, the dice aren't loaded, you would think the game would remain in equilibrium each person with about the same amount of money. In fact sooner or later one will clear the other out. While the probability of winning 10 or 20 games in row is quite low, if they keep playing, sooner or later one of them will have a winning streak and the other will be out of the game.

Your black and yellow genes are playing dice each generation. Of course there are different games between all the different combinations of homozygous and heterozygous, but if you play long enough, and the smaller the population, the less time it will take, sooner or later one will have a winning streak and clear the other out. So without any environmental pressure, you can end up with a population of pure bred yellow crows in that isolated environment while the rest of the crow population outside that area is black. As more neutral mutations occur in the isolation population, a percentage of them are fixed in the group the same way. Slowly, the isolated crows change from the main population until we have a completely different species. It is called genetic drift.
 
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gluadys

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I hope I won't offend you by saying this, Deamiter, but personally I don't think the argument that "Earth is an open system, therefore 2LoT doesn't hold" is at all helpful.

I don't think it is right to say the 2LoT doesn't hold in an open system. It does. But it applies differently in an open system than in a closed system.

In a closed system, the only direction to go is toward increasing entropy.

In an open system, since energy is always being added to the system, one can go either toward increasing or decreasing entropy, as long as -- and this is the key-- the net effect is toward increasing entropy in the open system and in its surrounding closed system.

So decreases in entropy on the earth are not a violation of the 2LoT, nor do they mean the 2LoT is not applicable. Because the earth is an open system, there can be lots of decreases in entropy, as long as they are offset by the greater increase in entropy in the solar system as a whole.


I do get your point that in a roundabout way, invalidating the 2LoT by emphasizing that Earth is an open system does give information about DNA (namely where does the energy to mutate DNA come from?) but AFAIK it would be more useful to emphasize that thermodynamic entropy is simply not a concept that you can naively apply to bio-information.

But I do agree with you here.
 
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gluadys

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Thanks for the response. Perhaps you can help me to better understand how the second law of thermodynamics applies to evolution.

Here are two thought experiments that should demonstrate how I understand the basic principle of the law:

Scenario A (the closed system):

Imagine a box, separated by a partition directly down the center which divides it into two portions. Now one side contains particles of gas moving about at a constant velocity (for simplicity's sake) and the other is a complete vacuum. If we were to remove the partition, the particles would spread out within the entire space of the box and the entropy of both halves would reach equilibrium. If the partition were to be slid back into place, the entropy of the two halves should remain the same.

Scenario B - the open system:

Ok now think about the same box but without the center partition. Inside the box there are a small number of gas particles at low concentration and low temperature (low entropy) and outside the box there is a much higher concentration of particles at higher temperature (high entropy). In this scenario we can consider the box's surroundings to be an infinite reservoir. Remove a side of the box and the entropy within and without will reach equilibrium irreversibly just as in scenario A.


The basic problem here is that your scenario B is not really describing an open system. It is describing another, larger closed system, once you open the side of the box.

Try this modification:

Instead of letting the energy from the larger surrounding closed system into the box by simply opening its side, keep the box closed and introduce the energy through an electrical wire. The wire is attached to an ice-making machine and a fan which blows the air into the rest of the box.

Now what is happening inside the box? Energy is going into the box via the electric wire, but the effect of adding this energy is to power a refrigerating system that makes the air in the box cooler!

That is what is possible in an open system. If you have a way of capturing the incoming energy and putting it to work, you can get a decrease in entropy within the open system.

Now of course, this cannot be a permanent situation. At some point either the motor on the fan, or the ice-making machine, will break down, or the outside source of energy will be cut off. Then the box becomes a closed system again, and the increase in entropy will resume.

Similarly with earth. At some point, the sun's energy will fail, and there will no longer be a possibilty of temporary decreases in entropy on earth. But we are a long way from that happening yet.

We are in the situation where there is plenty of incoming energy and myriad ways of capturing that energy to do work. In this situation, local, though temporary decreases in entropy can be expected. (Remembering that "temporary" in this case may be measured in billions of years.)


Ok so 2LoT should then apply even to open systems right? But how is it that life can exist? Because of Maxwell's demon. Life pushes entropy out of itself, for a while and then it is consumed irreversibly.

One thing to remember in this case is that "life" does not refer to each individual's life, but to the life of an organism and all of that organism's descendants. Through reproduction, life is passed from one generation to another and keeps on going as long as reproduction keeps on going, even though each generation dies and decays.

Think of a species of black birds that becomes completely isolated in a perfect environment for its survival. Given time and chance, it may be possible that one or more birds develops a small minute change in its genetic code which alters the color of its feathers to yellow. Now, since the environment is already ideal the color yellow does not affect the bird's chance of survival one bit.


Actually, if the environment is ideal for black birds, it is probably not ideal for yellow birds, and so it would affect the bird's chance of survival. However, let that pass for the moment.


It lives and breeds at its normal rate (assuming that color has no bearing on courtship). But how does this affect the population? Well, according to the principle of irreversibility the differences of genetic information between the black birds and yellow birds should somehow move toward equilibrium, and since there is a very small population of yellow birds as compared to black birds, it should hardly make a dent.

Are you speaking of a Mendelian equilibrium here? That is what one might expect, although as Assyrian says, one must also be mindful of genetic drift which can fix neutral traits in a population, especially if it is small and isolated.


Now, let's add in Maxwell's demon by isolating the black bird population in a scorching hot desert region. Suddenly the change in feather color might be just enough to turn the tables in favor of yellow birds.

So... what's the point? Survival of the fittest should easily cause change and reduce entropy within the genetic information of a population,

Do you understand that "survival of the fittest" would not cause change in any individual bird? It would not induce more mutations in favour of yellow birds. So how does the change occur in the population? And how would this reduce "genetic entropy" in the population?


but can it produce increased complexity? Certainly only if a change were significant enough to fuel selection.

Well, why not? I still don't see the basis of your problem with this. Nor do I see why it would need to trigger selection, rather than being--at least for a time--a neutral variation. Selection is needed to fix a trait in a population, but not to have it enter the population in the first place. (If that were the case, there would be no examples of harmful mutations.)

I thought mutations, were supposed to happen in small increments but from what I have learned so far it looks like it would take nothing less than a very large amount of genetic code to produce an appendage useful enough to kickstart the selection process.

In a sense you are right on both counts. Mutations create small changes in genes and (usually) in phenotypes. It would take a very large amount of genetic code to produce an appendage, but it doesn't follow that any large genetic changes are required all at once. They can and do occur in small increments.

Where you are going wrong is in assuming that the small increment is too small to be selected. No advantage is too small to be selected. There is no minimum level of advantage necessary to trigger natural selection.

And in some circumstances, even a neutral change can still become fixed in a population.

And if that is true, the odds that such a large amount of coherent code could arise nearly spontaneously would be astronomical. So to suggest that this has happened countless times with all of the species of life on earth just boggles my mind. How is it possible? Does any body know?

As notto noted, it is not just beneficial mutations that are happening. Right along with them, neutral and harmful mutations are happening too. The difference is that harmful mutations, and most neutral mutations, do not become fixed in the population and therefore do not accumulate one on top of another. So what we are left with after many generations is an apparently steady course toward a major change. But that's only because there is no record of the many side trails that once existed along the way.
 
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Deamiter

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Gosh everybody's covered just about everything I wanted to say... I'll just go over one small detail about thermodynamics again.

Ok so 2LoT should then apply even to open systems right?
No. It can be said, as Gluadys noted, that every open system is part of a larger closed system, but the 2LoT includes the stipulation that entropy increases in a closed system.

It's been a few years since my statistical thermo class, but I rather doubt the validity of your open system. First of all, it is impossible to define the entropy of an infinite well. While I fully agree that the sun's energy can be considered an infinite well for the sake of many arguments, the fact remains that the sun loses more entropy than the earth gains. If this were not true, the 2LoT would be violated.

Anyway, I especially like Assyrian's experiment with the salt water as it applies rather directly to the function of organisms. The sun's rather diffuse energy is constantly being converted to usable forms -- but as it is used, the net entropy constantly decreases. However, even though this net entropy decreases, the entropy within smaller systems (organisms) can stay constant or even increase at the expense of more entropy elsewhere.

I guess as long as you think the 2LoT applies to open systems, anything else is a bit of a moot point (though I understand you were asking not asserting). However, consider that if it DID apply to open systems, we would be incapable of living. We would not be able to process sunlight into usable energy (thus increasing our body's entropy). Once you accept that our bodies are open systems and not subject to the 2LoT, it ceases to present a problem in the even smaller open system of our genomes.

Note that I'm focusing only on the 2LoT since others have made very good arguments that extend to other areas. I certainly do not consider these discussions of the 2LoT to convince ANYBODY of evolution or anything similar... I am simply showing that the 2LoT is NEVER violated in any area of the theory of evolution, despite some leading creationist claims to the contrary.
 
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JohnR7

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Just think of the development of the DNA as the body from dust-evolution-then God breathed the breate of life, which directly became the spirit of man, into that body about 6000 years ago and when it made contact with the body the soul life was created. You see all men have two lives: the soul life and the spirit life.

What you are saying sounds like Gerald Schroeder's creation theory. As far as man having evolved and then 6,000 years ago God breathed life into him. So man took on a life he did not have before. The GAP theory says the same thing, there was man here before but he took on a new life 6,000 years ago. So you have old and new, spirit and soul. The GAP theory does not look for a connection, where TE trys to show a connection.
 
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IntheFaith

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What you are saying sounds like Gerald Schroeder's creation theory. As far as man having evolved and then 6,000 years ago God breathed life into him. So man took on a life he did not have before. The GAP theory says the same thing, there was man here before but he took on a new life 6,000 years ago. So you have old and new, spirit and soul.
Doesn't Gen. 2:7 say the body from dust? Thus before there was no man, so how could he take on a life if he is not created yet to be made in God's image (Gen. 1:26,27)? I don't think gap says there was man made in God's image before? It is dust-evolution-to form the body. Thus, before, there was no spirit, since God had not yet breathed His Spirit into the body formed from dust, and there was no soul since the soul requires the coming together of the spirit and the body. There is no old and new, just man made in God's image about 6000 years ago.
The GAP theory does not look for a connection, where TE trys to show a connection.
Didn't I just show you the connection? How does TE show a connection? If the connection you just tried to make is what you mean, then that would be a false connection, since there was no man made in God's image before about 4000 BC.

That's why I ask the question, how is gap anything like TE? They seem to be polar opposites, since gap says there is no man before, just the dust of the pre-Adamic beings.
 
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Sojourner<><

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Now consider a large box filled with air, a nice high entropy system. In the corner is a small container of salt water, again fairly high entropy Na+ and Cl- spread throughout the solution. The lid is removed. Come back a week later and there has been a big increase in entropy, with the water evaporated and its molecules scattered throughout the box as water vapour.

However in the small container we find salt crystals, highly ordered and low entropy. While the entropy of the whole system has increased, the entropy of the salt has decreased dramatically.

Interesting thought but I'm afraid it's a bit too complex for me to see how you want to apply that to evolution.

Think of two people playing dice. The game is fair, the dice aren't loaded, you would think the game would remain in equilibrium each person with about the same amount of money. In fact sooner or later one will clear the other out. While the probability of winning 10 or 20 games in row is quite low, if they keep playing, sooner or later one of them will have a winning streak and the other will be out of the game.

Your black and yellow genes are playing dice each generation. Of course there are different games between all the different combinations of homozygous and heterozygous, but if you play long enough, and the smaller the population, the less time it will take, sooner or later one will have a winning streak and clear the other out. So without any environmental pressure, you can end up with a population of pure bred yellow crows in that isolated environment while the rest of the crow population outside that area is black. As more neutral mutations occur in the isolation population, a percentage of them are fixed in the group the same way. Slowly, the isolated crows change from the main population until we have a completely different species. It is called genetic drift.

Right. This is why I suggested that the species over time might become mottled rather than purely yellow. If we start out with all black birds in a color-neutral environment, what's to say that the chances of green, red, or blue are any more or less likely to arise within the species than yellow? However, I'm not exactly sure but I think that yellow happens to be the color that is most reflective of sunlight. It's when extreme heat and sunlight are introduced that we should see the population being sorted out.
 
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Assyrian

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The 2LoT will continue to operate whether we can fence off a closed system or not. It is just that it is easier to define it for a closed system. The problem comes if you take a definition of the 2LoT that describes a closed system and try to apply it to an open one, the definition won't fit. But the 2LoT is still operating.

The 2LoT describes energy changes. If you want to look at entropy in living systems you have to look at all the energy involved, that includes energy coming from the sun.

Interesting thought but I'm afraid it's a bit too complex for me to see how you want to apply that to evolution.
An increase in order in one part of a system is not a problem for the second law because overall entropy still increases.

Right. This is why I suggested that the species over time might become mottled rather than purely yellow. If we start out with all black birds in a color-neutral environment, what's to say that the chances of green, red, or blue are any more or less likely to arise within the species than yellow? However, I'm not exactly sure but I think that yellow happens to be the color that is most reflective of sunlight. It's when extreme heat and sunlight are introduced that we should see the population being sorted out.
Mottling would require further genetic changes, if we simply had genes for black or yellow, the offspring would be either black or yellow. I don't think it would be too difficult to think of an environment where black and yellow are both equally advantageous, It could be a desert with yellow sand and black rocks, or simply an odd region with black and yellow stripes :D say, outcrops of basalt and sandstone.
 
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