Tattoos

[dayhiker]

What I'm wondering why a person would believe lying demons over the context of the Bible. I've yet to read where the Bible says a demon can enter when one gets a tattoo!

 

[jamadan]

Are you my elder?

I appreciate you taking the trouble to reply to my posts. What I'm still wondering about is how passages written to Old Testament Jews, an earthly people, in the land under the law, relate to New Testament Christians, a heavenly people, under grace. Presumably you're familiar with dispensations and dispensationalism (okay, so I identify with dispensationalism)?

You're staring at the words and not seeing the intent. We're not to worship like the pagans do. They worship idols, demons in our terminology. The demons inspire the actions they take. As Christians, we should never worship like the pagans; it can lead to demonic possession. Think about the cultures today that make piercings and tattoos part of what they do. Primitive African and South American tribes, each led into this practice by the demons they worship. By doing what they do, we enter into worship of those same demons and open ourselves to those demons. In our modern culture, we groom ourselves according to what we think looks good. It's not copied off a pagan culture and isn't mimicking an act of worship. Tattoos and piercings are entirely different. These practices have explicitly been copied off the African tribes and introduced into our culture through hip hop/rap. That these things remain tied to their demonic roots shouldn't be a surprise. That our culture is adopting and spreading these practices through such rebellious and demonic sources should also not be a surprise. Take it from another angle. Do you really think it's pleasing to God when we submit our bodies, the Temple of the Holy Spirit, to the painful mutilations of tattoos, piercings and the like? Demons take pleasure in giving us pain; not the Lord.

 

[jamadan]

What I'm wondering why a person would believe lying demons over the context of the Bible. I've yet to read where the Bible says a demon can enter when one gets a tattoo!

It doesn't say demons can enter by ouija or physical/sexual abuse or just about anything else, but that doesn't make mean it's not true. There are things the Spirit teaches directly to us (the anointing teaches you all things 1 JOhn 2:27).

 

[faroukfarouk]

What I'm wondering why a person would believe lying demons over the context of the Bible. I've yet to read where the Bible says a demon can enter when one gets a tattoo!

It's not just that our friend believes this; it's that he insists that other people are subject to his sweeping condemnation, while I've asked him repeatedly about the context of the very verse that he had quoted.

Are you a Jew living in Old Testament times, in the land under the law? I would think you are not...

 

[faroukfarouk]

It doesn't say demons can enter by ouija or physical/sexual abuse or just about anything else, but that doesn't make mean it's not true. There are things the Spirit teaches directly to us (the anointing teaches you all things 1 JOhn 2:27).

Oh I see: 'Thus saith jamadan'....

Now I understand where you're coming from.

 

[jamadan]

Oh I see: 'Thus saith jamadan'....

Now I understand where you're coming from.

Alright, so let me ask you, if you were to sacrifice an animal to the devil, would you expect a demon could enter you? If so, why? What in Scripture tells you that can happen?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Alright, so let me ask you, if you were to sacrifice an animal to the devil, would you expect a demon could enter you? If so, why? What in Scripture tells you that can happen?

Umm...this is about tattoos, not about sacrificing animals to the devil. I think you've changed the subject rather drastically.

You seemed to say that you know about your demon angle on tattoos via personal revelation, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe I don't believe in personal revelation.

 

[jamadan]

Umm...this is about tattoos, not about sacrificing animals to the devil. I think you've changed the subject rather drastically.

You seemed to say that you know about your demon angle on tattoos via personal revelation, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe I don't believe in personal revelation.

Then you're on the wrong forum. All Spirit-Filled believers recognize that the Spirit can speak to us and teach us and lead us into truth, all of which is in Scripture as I pointed out (1 John 2:27).

 

[faroukfarouk]

Then you're on the wrong forum. All Spirit-Filled believers recognize that the Spirit can speak to us and teach us and lead us into truth, all of which is in Scripture as I pointed out (1 John 2:27).

Oh, so all it takes is someone to say, Thus saith the Lord, and people must automatically believe the person, without checking it out from Scripture?

This I find bizarre...

 

[jamadan]

Oh, so all it takes is someone to say, Thus saith the Lord, and people must automatically believe the person, without checking it out from Scripture?

This I find bizarre...

Scripture tells us to test everything. We submit such statements to other mature leaders in the Body and ask them to pray for the leading of the Spirit to confirm or reject it. Test everything, hang on to the good. Surely you've seen this in Scripture.

Scripture tells us much, but can't be used as a written law. In the New Covenant, we're given the Spirit indwelling within us, the Law written in our hearts, who leads us into righteousness and guides our decisions. Surely this isn't new.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Scripture tells us to test everything. We submit such statements to other mature leaders in the Body and ask them to pray for the leading of the Spirit to confirm or reject it. Test everything, hang on to the good. Surely you've seen this in Scripture.

Scripture tells us much, but can't be used as a written law. In the New Covenant, we're given the Spirit indwelling within us, the Law written in our hearts, who leads us into righteousness and guides our decisions. Surely this isn't new.

So by your presumed spiritual authority over me you are overruling Scripture, or otherwise telling me what it means, though I can't read that conclusion there myself?

 

[jamadan]

Spoken like someone rebelling against the Lord. My statement about being an elder is generic. I've been an elder in several churches over the past few decades, have published as a teacher in the Body of Christ, run seminars on the baptism in the Spirit, and have been doing this for 30 years. So whether or not I'm older, I'm an elder in my position in the church. Most people who are not threatened and want to hear from the Lord simply appreciate that I've got lots that I've been taught and have lots I'm willing to share.

So while I was giving you the benefit of inexperience and ignorance and thus trying to explain, I see you are not teachable and my original assessment was correct. My patience with you is over. Goodnight.

 

[faroukfarouk]

jamadan:

My question was:

"So by your presumed spiritual authority over me you are overruling Scripture, or otherwise telling me what it means, though I can't read that conclusion there myself?"

Your answer was:

Spoken like someone rebelling against the Lord. My statement about being an elder is generic. I've been an elder in several churches over the past few decades, have published as a teacher in the Body of Christ, run seminars on the baptism in the Spirit, and have been doing this for 30 years. So whether or not I'm older, I'm an elder in my position in the church. Most people who are not threatened and want to hear from the Lord simply appreciate that I've got lots that I've been taught and have lots I'm willing to share.

So while I was giving you the benefit of inexperience and ignorance and thus trying to explain, I see you are not teachable and my original assessment was correct. My patience with you is over. Goodnight.

I think your reply to my question is a 'yes'.

Actually, like a lot of Christians, I think I'll stick to what the Bible clearly tells me.

Thanks for having take the trouble to answer my questions, at least, in some shape or form. I can see that there is little or no grounds for meaningful communication on these matters, seeing as by your doctrine you feel you can overrule what the Bible teaches, or otherwise make it explicit where the Bible apparently is not.

 

[jamadan]

jamadan:

My question was:

"So by your presumed spiritual authority over me you are overruling Scripture, or otherwise telling me what it means, though I can't read that conclusion there myself?"

Your answer was:



I think your reply to my question is a 'yes'.

Actually, like a lot of Christians, I think I'll stick to what the Bible clearly tells me.

Thanks for having take the trouble to answer my questions, at least, in some shape or form. I can see that there is little or no grounds for meaningful communication on these matters, seeing as by your doctrine you feel you can overrule what the Bible teaches, or otherwise make it explicit where the Bible apparently is not.

Do you believe abortion is a sin? Why? Doesn't say anything about abortion in the Bible, does it?

Do you allow women to speak in Church? If so, why? New Testament clearly states they are not allowed to speak.

I've provided 2 examples where you have to rely on the Holy Spirit to help you determine truth and lead you in righteousness. Scripture alone is not enough, we need to rely on the author of Scripture to help us.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Do you believe abortion is a sin? Why? Doesn't say anything about abortion in the Bible, does it?

Do you allow women to speak in Church? If so, why? New Testament clearly states they are not allowed to speak.

I've provided 2 examples where you have to rely on the Holy Spirit to help you determine truth and lead you in righteousness. Scripture alone is not enough, we need to rely on the author of Scripture to help us.

False.

Scripture is all sufficient.

We do need the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but He graciously illuminates and gives understanding of what Scripture says; He does not give new revelation.

What you seem to be saying, Sir, is not too different from Medieval popes who said: that Scripture was not enough; it's the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the church, that is really decisive.

(I'm glad Luther did not take that view.)

The other topics you raise are way off topic; more suitable for another thread.

We seem to have come a long way from tattoos, but I do think that approaches to the topic depend a lot on one's doctrinal background and methods of Scripture interpretation.

 

[jamadan]

False.

Scripture is all sufficient.

We do need the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but He graciously illuminates and gives understanding of what Scripture says; He does not give new revelation.

What you seem to be saying, Sir, is not too different from Medieval popes who said that Scripture was not enough; it's the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the church, that is really decisive.

(I'm glad Luther did not take that view.)

The other topics you raise are way off topic; more suitable for another thread.

We seem to have come a long way from tattoos, but I do think that approaches to the topic depend a lot on one's doctrinal background and methods of Scripture interpretation.

Sola Scripture is not in Scripture

Paul said to follow the oral traditions as well, didn't he? And to obey the voice of the Spirit? Sorry. You're looking for the wrong law. The stone is crumbled.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Sola Scripture is not in Scripture

Paul said to follow the oral traditions as well, didn't he? And to obey the voice of the Spirit? Sorry. You're looking for the wrong law. The stone is crumbled.

Thus saith the Lord is not equal to Thus said jamadan.

Sola Scripture means the final appeal is to Scripture, not to men.

 

[jamadan]

Thus saith the Lord is not equal to Thus said jamadan.

Sola Scripture means the final appeal is to Scripture, not to men.

You will never understand the Spirit, because you reject being able to hear from Him. Sad.

 

[faroukfarouk]

You will never understand the Spirit, because you reject being able to hear from Him. Sad.

You were the one that mentioned the Holy Spirit, and now you're suggesting, if I'm not mistaken, that the believer cannot be guided in understanding by the Holy Spirit without the mediation of the church.

A truly sad position to take.

I'm not saying to anyone, go get a tattoo. (I don't think I've ever said this.) What I've said is, if a person gets a cross or Bible verse on a wrist, for example, they might find that it leads to witness conversations; many Christians have found this.

 

[jamadan]

You were the one that mentioned the Holy Spirit, and now you're suggesting, if I'm not mistaken, that the believer cannot be guided in understanding by the Holy Spirit without the mediation of the church.

A truly sad position to take.

I'm not saying to anyone, go get a tattoo. (I don't think I've ever said this.) What I've said is, if a person gets a cross or Bible verse on a wrist, for example, they might find that it leads to witness conversations; many Christians have found this.

So you're advising people that it's okay to mutilate the flesh like pagans and open yourself to demonic possession, which many have found to be true.

Careful, you're dabbling in what you don't understand and will be held accountable now that I've informed/warned.