Tasted Death for every Man !

Brightfame52

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If we would understand the ramifications of Christ having tasted death, we would understand that it could not have been for every man without exception. Heb 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The word taste

  1. to taste, to try the flavour of
  2. to taste
    1. i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
    2. to feel, make trial of, experience
  3. to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

See He experienced death in behalf of every man He died for. The death He eperienced is the death they incurred as the wages of their sins Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So these whom He tasted / experience death their behalf, are fully exonerated/discharged from having to experience it for themselves, as the wages for their sins. Death for them has been abolished 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Thats a key element in constituting Him Our Saviour, abolishing death for us by tasting death for us.

Its not possible for Christ to have tasted death for an individual and it didn't for that individual abolish death. That would be a detriment to His accomplishment and Him being the Saviour.

Many will have to go into the second death Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Therefore Christ could not have tasted death and abolished death on their behalf.
 
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John Mullally

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1 Timothy 2:6 says that Jesus gave Himself a ransom for "all". Based upon the verses preceding 1 Timothy 2:6, this "all" cannot be referring to those who ultimately inherit salvation (i.e. the elect).

Paul uses the object "all men" and "all" in 1 Timothy 2:1, 4 and 6. Due to their proximity, Paul must be referring to the same object in all three instances. Paul could not be referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:1 because he expands upon that verse with 1 Timothy 2:2 which emphasizes praying for all who were in authority - many of whom were evil men who did not inherit salvation - such as Herod and Nero. If Paul was not referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:1, he was not referring to the elect in 1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 2:6. Other translations read similarly.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NKJV​
 
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Brightfame52

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@John Mullally

1 Timothy 2:6 says that Jesus gave Himself a ransom for "all". Based upon the verses preceding 1 Timothy 2:6, this "all" cannot be referring to those who ultimately inherit salvation (i.e. the elect).

Thats the only ones it can be referring to John is the elect.
 
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John Mullally

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@John Mullally
Thats the only ones it can be referring to John is the elect.
I provided a concise argument in post #23 for why the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:6 cannot be referring to only the elect.

Can you identify the flaw in my argument or can you provide your own concise argument for why "all" in 1 Timothy 2:6 can only be referring to "the elect"? Thank you.
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day,

NT Greek Scholar DA Carson in his book on the love of God notes:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/carson/1999_for_the_love_of_God.pdf

The author of Hebrews has already hinted at the problem that Jesus came to resolve. Originally human beings were made to be God’s vice-regents over the entire creation, a point not only made by the creation accounts (Gen. 1—2) but reiterated in the superb poetry of Psalm 8 (cited in Heb. 2:6-8). But as the author of Hebrews points out, we do not yet see everything under our feet, as Genesis 1 and Psalm 8 envisage. Of course not: the Fall has intervened, and death takes its unvarying toll. But what do we see? “[W]e see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone” (2:9). The point is not exactly that Jesus is the “man” envisaged in Psalm 8, as if he were being prophetically described, but that by his mission, by his identification with us, and by his death, he becomes the first human being to be crowned with such glory and honor, as he brings many sons—a new humanity—to glory.

In dealing with the passage NT Greek scholar and NT exergete Thomas Schreiner notes:

“Problematic Texts” for Definite Atonement in the Pastoral and General Epistles by Thomas R. Schreiner

Hebrews

The main text in Hebrews that relates to definite atonement is Hebrews 2:9, where the author says that Jesus suffered “by the grace of God” (χάριτι θεοῦ) so that “he might taste death for everyone” (ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου). Understandably this text has often been adduced to support unlimited atonement. I will argue, however, that such a reading of the text, though superficially attractive, does not fit well with the context of Hebrews 2.

Before addressing the meaning of Hebrews 2:9, a quick survey of Hebrews relative to the atonement is fitting. In Hebrews, Jesus is the Melchizedekian Priest who, in fulfillment of Psalm 110:1, “sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” after accomplishing “purification of sins” (1:3). Jesus, in contrast to the Levitical priesthood, brought “perfection,” in that believers now “draw near to God” (7:19) through his sacrifice. His sacrifice is permanently effective, since he intercedes for believers on the basis of his death as the one who lives and reigns forever (7:24–25). The relationship between Jesus’s death and his intercession is crucial. Clearly, Jesus’s intercession as the Risen One is invariably effective since he intercedes on the basis of his death (cf. Rom. 8:31–34). But it would be illegitimate to posit a separation between his death and intercession. In other words, Jesus intercedes specially and exclusively for those for whom he died. Just as he does not intercede for all, so in the same way he died in a unique sense for those whom he came to save, pleading on the basis of his death for their salvation.

The author of Hebrews desired his readers to be full of assurance. Hence, he reminds them that Christ’s blood cleanses their consciences (Heb. 9:14). Christ’s sacrifice is the final and definitive sacrifice (9:25–28), and hence no further sacrifice is needed. Christ has effectively borne “the sins of many” (9:28). His one sacrifice renders the need for other sacrifices superfluous (10:1–4). Believers are “sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (10:10; cf. 10:14). Since Christ’s work on the cross is complete, he sits at God’s right hand (10:12). Sin has been completely and decisively forgiven at the cross of Christ (10:14).

The texts on intercession and sanctification point to the truth that Christ specially died for those who are his own. Nevertheless, Hebrews 2:9 could easily be understood as pointing in the other direction, since it says that Jesus tasted death for all, and Psalm 8 presumably includes a reference to every human being (cf. Heb. 2:5–8).52

Yet when we actually examine the context of Hebrews 2, we find evidence suggesting that the death Jesus tasted “for everyone” (ὑπὲρ παντός) does not, in this context, refer to everyone without exception but to everyone without distinction.53 First, in verses 5–8, though the author refers to human beings in general, he does not put any stress on all human beings without exception. Instead, the author focuses on Jesus Christ and teaches that only those who belong to him will enjoy the rule over all things described in Psalm 8. Second, verse 10 speaks of “bringing many sons to glory” (πολλοὺς υἱοὺς εἰς δόξαν ἀγαγόντα). Jesus’s suffering was effective in its design and purpose, in that it actually brought “sons to glory.” The focus clearly rests on what Jesus effectively accomplished through his death. Third, those redeemed are described as “brothers” (ἀδελφούς) of Jesus (vv. 11–12).54 Those who are the beneficiaries of Jesus’ death are identified as members of his family. Hence, the author does not call attention to the benefit of Jesus’s death for all people in general but to the advantage that exists for those who are part of his family. Fourth, the particularity in Jesus’s family is even clearer in verse 13, where the author, in citing Isaiah 8:18, depicts Jesus as saying, “Behold, I and the children God has given me” (ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ καὶ τὰ παιδία ἅ μοι ἔδωκεν ὁ θεός). Not any or all children are in view here, but specific children—the children God has given to Jesus. It seems, then, that Jesus’s brothers are equivalent to the children God gave him. Jesus suffered to bring these to glory, suggesting that his death “for everyone” in context refers to those brothers whom God had ordained to be part of his family. Fifth, in verse 16 the author of Hebrews remarks that Jesus does not help angels, “but he helps the offspring of Abraham.” The phrase “offspring of Abraham” (σπέρματος Ἀβραάμ) is most interesting. If the author had a general or unlimited atonement in view, we would expect a reference to the “offspring of Adam” or “the sons of Adam.” Such a designation would emphasize the universality of Jesus’s work for all human beings. But that is not the purpose of the author of Hebrews here. He focuses on the “offspring of Abraham,” so that the emphasis is on God’s chosen people—the children of Abraham. As we see elsewhere in the NT, the church of Jesus Christ is considered to be the seed of Abraham (cf. Gal. 3:6–9).55 Many readers may interpret the text quickly and be guilty of thinking that the “offspring of Abraham” are equivalent to the “offspring of Adam.” Clearly, the focus is not on the undifferentiated love of Christ but on his particular concern for the chosen seed of Abraham.

When we place this description of Abraham’s offspring with the emphasis on the children God gave to Jesus and the use of the word “brothers,” we have significant evidence that Jesus’s death “for everyone” (v. 9) is particular rather than general. Hence, it supports definite atonement rather than general atonement. All of this fits with verse 17, which speaks of Jesus’s High Priestly ministry “to make propitiation for the sins of the people” (εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ). Given the focus on God’s elect and Jesus’s family in the context, it seems fair to conclude that here the emphasis is on the actual satisfaction accomplished in Jesus’s death for those who would be part of his family.56

To conclude, though Hebrews 2:9 may on first glance support general atonement, a closer look at the context suggests that definite atonement is in view.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Brightfame52

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I provided a concise argument in post #23 for why the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:6 cannot be referring to only the elect.

Can you identify the flaw in my argument or can you provide your own concise argument for why "all" in 1 Timothy 2:6 can only be referring to "the elect"? Thank you.
Your argument is just that, and its meaningless. Read this thread and learn the truth if God is willing.
 
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John Mullally

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Your argument is just that, and its meaningless. Read this thread and learn the truth if God is willing.
I have read this thread and respectfully disagree with your points. Your response says more about yourself than anything else.
 
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Brightfame52

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I have read this thread and respectfully disagree with your points. Your response says more about yourself than anything else.
Okay, respectfully you disagree with the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus.
 
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John Mullally

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Okay, respectfully you disagree with the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus.
You opened this Post on Hebrews 2:9 to argue against the "every man" in that verse being all humanity, but rather just the elect. I argue against that with an argument from a similar passage (1 Timothy 2:1-6) to show that the "all" in "Christ gave himself a ransom for all" cannot logically be narrowed to strictly the elect. There is no need to respond with insulting remarks.
 
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Brightfame52

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You opened this Post on Hebrews 2:9 to argue against the "every man" in that verse being all humanity, but rather just the elect. I argue against that with an argument from a similar passage (1 Timothy 2:1-6) to show that the "all" in "Christ gave himself a ransom for all" cannot logically be narrowed to strictly the elect. There is no need to respond with insulting remarks.
I know what the op is.
 
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prophecy_uk

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So these whom He tasted / experience death their behalf, are fully exonerated/discharged from having to experience it for themselves, as the wages for their sins. Death for them has been abolished 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


.






Christ abolished death to bring lift and immortality to LIGHT, through the Gospel.


Then when their hardness and impenitent heart, stores up wrath against the righteous judgement of God and His day of wrath, they are not acknowledging that God renders to every man according to their deeds.


Some in continence do well doing, to seek glory and honour and immortality.

Others contend this, they obey lies to obey unrighteousness, to receive indignation and wrath, to every soul that does evil.

But glory and honour and peace goes to every man that works good, for there is no respect of persons with God..

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



This is the deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, they receive not the love of the truth, to be saved, they receive strong delusion, they believe a lie, that they might all be damned, who do not believe her truth, but ave their belief and pleasure in unrighteousness..


2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.




God has chosen them to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, which is belief of the truth ( the Spirit of truth given to us) for the obtaining o the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ..


2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Clare73

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The everyone Christ tasted death for in Heb 2:9 is everyone of His Bride, His Church. Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and
gave himself for it
;
. . .:oldthumbsup:
 
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Brightfame52

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The everyone Christ tasted death for in Heb 2:9 is everyone who is a believer, who sees[spiritually] Jesus Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The writer here includes himself and isnt speaking of the natural man or jew. The seeing[Jesus] here is the effects of the Holy Spirit giving sight. So Jesus tasted death for every man that is seeing Him, Jesus who came to save His Peole from their sins Matt 1:21 Its the Fathers will Jesus said Jn 6:40

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
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BobRyan

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If we would understand the ramifications of Christ having tasted death, we would understand that it could not have been for every man without exception. Heb 2:9

The Bible never adds "without exception" to anything.

When it says "God is love" it does not add "without exception"

When it says "do not take God's name in vain" it does not add "without exception"

The requirement that scripture add "without exception" before we accept it - is a man made insert.

2 John 2:2 "Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only - but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" -- is the closest it gets to the man-made "without exception"
 
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Brightfame52

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The Bible never adds "without exception" to anything.

When it says "God is love" it does not add "without exception"

When it says "do not take God's name in vain" it does not add "without exception"

The requirement that scripture add "without exception" before we accept it - is a man made insert.

2 John 2:2 "Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only - but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" -- is the closest it gets to the man-made "without exception"
Even there it doesnt say Christ tasted death for everyone without exception. Now back to Heb 2:9
 
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BobRyan

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In my statement that no Bible text adds the man-made "without exception" ending as if "disbelieve whatever we say if we do not add the phrase - without exception" was even "a thing" in the Bible...

The Bible never adds "without exception" to anything.

When it says "God is love" it does not add "without exception"

When it says "do not take God's name in vain" it does not add "without exception"

The requirement that scripture add "without exception" before we accept it - is a man made insert.

2 John 2:2 "Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only - but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" -- is the closest it gets to the man-made "without exception"

we get this rather "odd" response as if John's point in using the all-inclusive term "Whole WORLD" is excluding some other worlds since it does not add "without exception"

Even there it doesnt say Christ tasted death for everyone without exception.

Odd indeed
 
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BobRyan

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Oh of course one last question, do we doubt or believe that Jesus is ABLE TO SAVE, all, or is only able to save some.

No text adds "without exception" so then even God's ability to do "exceedingly abundantly above all" - is not to be taken as infinite since no text adds "without exception" to anything. In the same way God's knowledge of things in the Bible does not add "without exception" so "some" imagine lots of things God does not know..

It is a marketing idea that if it does not add "Without exception" then you can downsize the claim to whatever you wish - and then it is applied to the Bible.
 
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Brightfame52

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Another way to understand Heb 2:9 from the context of scripture, and that is, the foundation of the death of Jesus in the verse is the Grace of God:

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

And the Grace of God is discriminate, its not for all without exception though for all without distinction, of Gods Elect. Ex33:18-19

Ex. 33:18-19; And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy

Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The substitutionary nature of Christs death was for a remnant according to the election of grace.
 
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Brightfame52

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M.Brazil

Seeing Jesus and believing on Him, cannot be by the Spirit, as the Apostles and followers believed prior to the Spirit given.

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, so anyone who had Faith had to be regenerated. Now did OT Saints have Faith ? Read Heb 11

Abraham saw Christs day Jn 8:56

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
 
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