• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.

Tasted Death for every Man !

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Brightfame52, Sep 25, 2021.

  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The writer of Hebrews wrote Heb 2:9

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Now honestly, did the writer write here that Christ tasted death for all mankind without exception here ? Nope he did not. In the original man isnt in the verse:

    τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

    Man was added by the translators. The word pas can refer to all the whole, the sum total of all the group intended. Context is important n determining the group that the writer has in mind. Lets look at the very next verse 10

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    Bingo, its the many sons that e suffered and died for, or tasted death for, The word many polys:

    many, much, large, many, numerous, great

    He tasted death for many Sons, a great number of them, everyone of them. This is important,, because later in the same epistle the writer uses the adjective many again to denote who He tasted death for Heb 9:28


    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    See to taste death back in Heb 2:9 is the exact same thing as " to bear the sins of many;" again, the many Sons of vs 10, everyone of the sons is who He tasted death for, not all of mankind without exception.

    See Isa 53:11

    He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Well-Known Member

    838
    +691
    United States
    Catholic
    Private
    "Many" can be the whole. If I am referring to a whole group of 50 (say there are 50 humans) you can also say "many humans." Either way, "he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +6,771
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Yes.

    Each time someone adds "yes but the author did not say 'really-really-for-sure' so it does not mean what it says" - or someone adds "yes but they did not pinkie swear so it is not really true that all have sinned and all are doomed without the Gospel" -- it looks like a contrived argument.

    1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only - but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

    Heb 2:
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"

    2 Peter 3 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance"

    So even though Christ tells us in Matt 7 that it is "only the FEW" that are on the narrow way that leads to life - and the "many" fail... yet it is not due to lack of effort or interest on the part of God.
     
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You still dont seem to get it.
     
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Heb 2:10 makes it clear who the everyone or every man is in Heb 2:9 for whom Christ tasted death for. Its for every son that He suffered and died for, constituting Him the Captain of their Salvation which brings them to Glory:

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    Notice it specifies their Salvation ! So He tasted death or suffered for their Salvation. Also this taste of death for them ensures their being brought to Glory.
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The Captain of our Salvation !

    The every man in Heb 2:9 who Jesus tasted death for, are the same by His taste of death in Vs 10 became to them and them only, the Captain of their Salvation !

    Heb 2:9-10

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings[His Death].

    To be the Captain of their Salvation also describes the fact that He was and is 100% responsible for their Salvation. God made it His responsibility to save them and consequently bring them to Glory.

    This coincides with Jesus words in Jn 17:2

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    It also fulfills what Isaiah wrote Isa 9:6

    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    The government of the Salvation of His People is upon His shoulders !

    This speaks of His Spiritual rule, prince hood. In fact that word Captain in Heb 2:10 also means Prince Acts 5:31

    31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    So His tasting Death was for the Salvation of His People, you cant separate His Death from Salvation !
     
  7. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,991
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    If the meaning is that Christ would taste death for the many (not all), it could be taken as his death on the cross was the punishment for all and every sin in the whole world, yet he did this "tasted this death" for the many/those who actually will receive him.

    "His people" are the Jews.

    A Light of revelation to the Gentiles,
    And the glory of Your people Israel.”
    Luke 2:32

    ‘And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah,
    Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah;
    For out of you shall come forth a Ruler
    Who will shepherd My people Israel.’”
    Matthew 2:6
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You way off !
     
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    We know that the every man in Heb 2:9 that Christ by the Grace of God, tasted death for, wasn't every individual without exception, because His death was a manifestation of Gods Grace towards them, and so by His death they are Justified by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Heb 2:9

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Those He died for are Justified by His Death/Blood Rom 5:9 !
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood or Death, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    And we know everyman individually is not Justified !
     
  10. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,991
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    Why is it important to you that Christ died for a chosen number, but not every person on this Earth?
     
  11. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +1,382
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Atonement is a huge topic, but at least you are aware of just some of the issues there are with some of the popular theories of atonement. These theories do the following:

    1. They make God out to be blood thirsty?

    2. God is seen as being extremely wrathful toward His children?

    3. All leave out man’s part in the atonement process, but do try to inject it someway?

    4. They show universal atonement, which has to be illogically explained away to be for only those saved?

    5. Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and the Hebrew writer explain Jesus going to the cross as literally being a ransom payment, yet the theories do a poor job explaining how these they are ransom/kidnap scenario (the Ransom Theory of Atonement also does a poor job).

    6. A rebellious disobedient child of a wonderful parent not only needs forgiveness, but fair/just Loving discipline conducted if at all possible, with the Parent (this is for best results), yet these theories only show forgiveness and not how atonement is a fair/just loving disciplining of the sinner.

    7. It makes God out to be weak needing something like Christ going to the cross to forgive or accept the sinner and/or there is this “cosmic law” God has to obey.

    8. They do not fit what went on with minor sins (unintentional sins) being atoned for (Lev.5).

    9. They do not explain the contrast between those forgiven before and after the cross Ro. 3:25.

    10. They have no reason for why their explanation is left out of the Christ Crucified sermons given in the New Testament.

    11. They do not fit, what the new convert can/should experience when coming to the realization they caused Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered (being crucified with Christ).

    12. All will give illogical interpretations of verses and words in scripture, like (My God, My God why have you forsaken me) and the English word “for”.

    13. They have or say: God forgives our sins 100% and Christ paid for our sins 100%, but that is contradicting the scriptural understanding of “paying” and “forgiving”, since if it truly “forgiven” there is nothing to be paid. It also cheapens sin.

    14. The atonement sacrifice losses its significance by being rolled up with the death burial and resurrection.

    15. We have Peter in Acts 2 giving a wonderful “Christ Crucified” sermon, yet there is no mention of Christ being our substitute or the cross “satisfying” God in some way and that is not presented in other sermons in scripture.

    The cross is foolishness to the nonbeliever so it is not easy to explain and it is much easier for the Christian to experience atonement than it is to explain atonement.

    To truly understand we need to go through every Old and New Testament verse concerning the atonement process and Christ’s crucifixion. I like to start with Lev. 5, but find great understanding in Ro. 3:25, but there is Godly logic in what happened.

    Try just this small part of it:

    There is this unbelievable huge “ransom payment” being made: Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and the author of Hebrews all describe it as an actual ransom scenario and not just “like a ransom scenario”. And we can all agree on: the payment being Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder, the Payer being God/Christ, the child being set free (sinners going to God), but have a problem with: “Who is the kidnapper”? If there is no kidnapper then it is not a ransom scenario, so who is the kidnapper?

    Some people try to make God the receiver of the payment, which calls God the kidnapper of His own children which is crazy. God is not a criminal nor unworthy.

    Some people say satan is the kidnapper, but that would mean God is paying satan when God has the power to safely take anything from satan and it would be wrong for God to pay His satan.

    Some say it is an intangible like death, evil, sin, or nothing, but there is no reason to pay a huge payment to an intangible?

    There is a very wicked criminal and that person is holding a child back from entering the Kingdom to be with God. When we go to the nonbeliever, we are not trying to convince them of an idea, a book, a doctrine or theology, but to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified (which the Bible defines as the ransom payment). If the nonbeliever accepts the ransom payment (Jesus Christ) there is a child released to go to the Father, but if the nonbeliever refuses to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is kept out of the Kingdom. Does this all sounds very much like a kidnapping scenario?

    There is a lot more to say about this, but this is an introduction.
     
  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    By Death delivered from Death.

    We know that Christ didn't taste Death for all individuals without exception since those He tasted Death for are by His Death delivered from Death and the fear of Death Heb 2:9,14-15

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


    Those who Christ tasted death for have been set free from the death the devil brought about !
     
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Its the Truth, the Truth is important. Prov 23:23

    Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
     
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The death of Christ for those He tasted death for Heb 2:9 it delivered them from #1 Death, #2 the Devil, #3 Hell, #4 Gods Wrath. So how can we testify to the death of Christ and its accomplishments, if any for He tasted death for die in their sins and experience for eternity Gods Wrath ?
     
  15. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,991
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    If we don't know Jesus died for everyone, we can't testify to anyone what Christ has done for them, since we don't know who the elect are.
     
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    We can tell people what Christ done for sinners who God has chosen in Christ before the foundation and leave it up to God to apply it to whomever is His Chosen, we may not know who they are but God most certainly does.
     
  17. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,919
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    And then you run into the use of world, all, etc., in the context of God's former exclusiveness of the Jews from the world, to mean an inclusion also of the Gentiles (which together with the Jews would be the "whole world"), rather than all individuals.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
  18. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,991
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    That you can do.
     
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    +155
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes Christ did taste death for every man just as Heb 2:9 states, and for every man He tasted death for, by it He became the Captain of their Salvation Heb 2:9-10

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    The every man in Vs 9 is the their in Vs 10 !

    Christ is the Captain of their Salvation via His suffering unto death for them. See the death of Christ effects the full Salvation of all for whom He died or tasted death for. This means if any man is never saved or comes into the realization of their Salvation, then its impossible for Christ to have tasted death for them, lest we conclude that His death was ineffectual to that end.
     
  20. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

    +127
    Christian
    Bright: "Christ is the Captain of their Salvation via His suffering unto death for them. See the death of Christ effects the full Salvation of all for whom He died or tasted death for. This means if any man is never saved or comes into the realization of their Salvation, then its impossible for Christ to have tasted death for them, lest we conclude that His death was ineffectual to that end."





    Christ is captain of His servants, and God separates between those who serve Him and those who serve Him not..



    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

    Malachi 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


    Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
     
Loading...