Tartarus?

[angelmom01]

" I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life."

Have you thought that this might actually mean that Jesus is saying that YOU ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, YOU WILL NEVER BE CONDEMNED and YOU HAVE ALREADY PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE... and you can acknowledge that it already happened? That it is not conditional on heeding or trusting, except that one can't know or experience it unless one hears it, heeds it and trusts it.
Which of course means: EVERYONE has "eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life"

Like the old bumper sticker: The only difference between Christians and non-Christians is that Christians KNOW they are forgiven

I must have missed that bumper sticker.

 

[KCDAD]

Webers_Home;
Sorry; but the grim reality is: only believers have eternal life.

Believers? Please explain what "belief" in this context means...

†. John 3:36 . . All who believe in God's son have eternal life.

What does "belief in" someone mean?

†. John 6:47 . . I assure you; he who believes has eternal life.

Believes what?

†. John 3:36 . . He who disbelieves the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

What does "believes the Son" mean?

People in Hell don't have eternal life: no, they have human life; which is a created kind of life that came into existence in the book of Genesis. Eternal life is the life of God, who had neither a beginning nor will ever have an ending. There is animal life, vegetable life, bird life, sea life, human life, angel life, and God life. People in Hell are stuck there with human life.

wow

When believers leave this earthen mausoleum, they shed their human life like a dead skin due to a supernatural surgical procedure performed without the services of a doctor.

"earthly mausoleum"... wow... you must be suicidal to get to the "real life", eh?
"supernatural surgical procedure"???? ok ok that's enough... I am declaring The Poe Law is in effect.

People who cross over to the other side without first obtaining that weird circumcision will cross over with human life rather than eternal life; which is a very bad situation since human life is denied entry into God's kingdom.

aha! Caught you! "weird circumcision", indeed.[/quote]

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: what of the person, who's maybe in their fifties, who lives in a remote part of the world, not hearing a word about Christ until a missionary comes along, hears the 'good news' and believes? By what you have said 'it is not granted to unbelievers', he, being an unbeliever, could never have believed because he was an unbeliever.

You seem convinced that unbelief is irreversible. It isn't. Repentance plays a major role in the plan of salvation. The Greek word for repent is metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o) which means: to think differently afterwards, to reconsider, to change one's mind.

For the most part, unbelief is due primarily to a lack of information. In other words, until somebody is told about the Bible's God, told about His intention to judge the human race, told about the reality of retribution, and told about the ransom available via Christ's crucifixion; they exist in a state of unbelief; viz: unbelief need not be deliberate to qualify as unbelief. For example, I didn't believe in Saturn's rings until somebody told me about them. I wasn't being stubborn, I was just uneducated.

This problem of ignorance is the very thing that motivates missionaries to go into all the world and preach the gospel to everyone, everywhere. Ignorance is a silent killer; and only people with a sense of mission appreciate just how lethal it really is.

If it's any consolation, the Bible's God permits ignorance to be a mitigating circumstance (Num 15:27-31) so then the uninformed will be judged with less severity than those who know better.

†. Luke 12:47-48 . . And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

I pity the ones who know better.

†. Heb 10:29-31 . . Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled God's son underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said: "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay."

From that, I gather that the judgment of the ignorant won't be done in a vengeful spirit; but rather, with a bit more understanding— nevertheless, the ignorant will be judged; and according to the Bible, the wages of their sins will be death. (Rom 6:23)

Since everyone's first death is due to Adam's sin rather than their own (Gen 3:3, Gen 3:19, and Rom 5:12) then unbelievers will have to die a second time in order to satisfy justice for their own sins. And since there is only one resurrection per person, nobody is coming back from their experience with death the second time.

†. Dan 12:2 . . And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life; some to shame and everlasting contempt.

†. John 5:27-30 . . The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[KCDAD]

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You seem convinced that unbelief is irreversible. It isn't. Repentance plays a major role in the plan of salvation. The Greek word for repent is metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o) which means: to think differently afterwards, to reconsider, to change one's mind.

How interesting. If one can rethink being rational, and become irrational, can someone rethink being irrational?

 

[Tavita]

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You seem convinced that unbelief is irreversible. It isn't. Repentance plays a major role in the plan of salvation. The Greek word for repent is metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o) which means: to think differently afterwards, to reconsider, to change one's mind.

Now you're putting that back on me when I was pointing out what I believe YOU were saying. Sorry, it doesn't wash with me.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: What does "belief in" someone mean? What does "believes the Son" mean?

Answer: people voted for Mr. Obama because they believed in him; subsequently pinning their hopes upon the President's charisma and upon his campaign promises; viz: belief consists of the elements of trust and confidence; e.g.

†. Gen 15:6 . . Abram believed in Yhvh; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

RE: †. John 6:47 . . I assure you; he who believes has eternal life. Believes what?

The answer to your question is located in the Bible text that begins with John 6:29 and ends with John 6:58

RE: "supernatural surgical procedure"????

The circumcision, spoken of at Col 2:11-13, is an amputation accomplished by a supernatural process that I don't really understand all that well. But I do know that it is essential to undergo the procedure if one wishes to part company with their natural-born human nature; which, as I pointed out in msg #19, isn't permitted to enter God's kingdom. And why is that?

Answer: heaven is a place of peace. If people were permitted to enter God's kingdom infected with natural-born human nature, in no time at all heaven would become another earth. There'd be discord, hatred, factions, cliques, mistrust, prejudice, bias, caste systems, double standards, partiality, favoritism, deceit, surmising, dishonesty, gossip, slander, sarcasm, cynicism, ridicule, envy, jealousy, rivalry, resentment, avarice, greed, gossip, character assassination, kangaroo courts, complaining, tattling, meddling, confrontations, quarrels, assertiveness, chafing, trickery, grudging, stonewalling, bitterness, aggravation, silent treatments, revenge, stubbornness, cold shouldering, snobbery, egotism, dominance, demeaning comments, insults, rebellion, arrogance, attitudes, subterfuge, treachery, betrayal, suspicion, conceit, vanity, superiority complexes, depression, melancholy, panic attacks, bi-polar disorders, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression, injustice, civil rights abuses, etc, etc, et al and ad nausea.

As I walk
On this wicked world,
Searchin' for light in the darkness of insanity.
I ask myself
Is all hope lost?
Is there only pain and hatred, and misery?

And each time I feel like this inside,
There's one thing I wanna know:
What's so funny 'bout peace, love, & understanding?

Lyrics by Nick Lowe
Recorded by Elvis Costello & The Attractions

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[KCDAD]

.
As I walk
On this wicked world,
Searchin' for light in the darkness of insanity.
I ask myself
Is all hope lost?
Is there only pain and hatred, and misery?

And each time I feel like this inside,
There's one thing I wanna know:
What's so funny 'bout peace, love, & understanding?

Lyrics by Nick Lowe
Recorded by Elvis Costello & The Attractions

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Imagine, by John Lennon

Imagine there's no heaven, its easy if you try
no hell below us, above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

How about Styx SHOW ME THE WAY?

Every night I say a prayer in hopes that there's a heaven
and every day I'm more confused as the saints turn into sinners
Then I wake up each morning and turn on the news to find we've so far to go
and I keep on hoping for a sign, so afraid I just won't know...

 

[Webers_Home]

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I once heard a preacher spin a rather realistic tale about a bus load of Hell's inmates who were issued a 30-day pass for R&R in Heaven. They all came back the very first night because Heaven had nothing to offer them. There were no nude beaches, no free love, no wild parties, no porn, no vices like tobacco and drugs, no exotic dancers, no democracy, no privacy, no freedom of speech, no separation of church and state, no casinos, and everybody had to go to the same church and sing the same hymns; and it's etiquette and it's code of conduct were way too strict.

There are some people for whom the Bible's hell is too good. They not only deserve to go there, but that is precisely where they belong because they are toxic, ugly human beings— despicable churls who can only be humbled by permanent third degree burns over 100% of their bodies; which would have the effect of giving them the appearance of an over-grilled hot dog. Next time you see an over-grilled hot dog, particularly note it's darkened, blistered texture. An over-grilled hot dog looks more like a piece of wood than edible food.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[KCDAD]

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There are some people for whom the Bible's hell is too good. They not only deserve to go there, but that is precisely where they belong because they are toxic, ugly human beings— despicable churls who can only be humbled by permanent third degree burns over 100% of their bodies; which would have the effect of giving them the appearance of an over-grilled hot dog. Next time you see an over-grilled hot dog, particularly note it's darkened, blistered texture. An over-grilled hot dog looks more like a piece of wood than edible food.

Wow. You need to practice that love thing Jesus taught about.

You actually think people are born thinking that way? You think it is actually someone's fault they are brought up to hate, despise and reject?

But not you... right? You don't deserve to go there, and you don't belong there? "Thank God i am not like that sinner over there... I pray twice a week and tithe on everything I make!"

That story was written about you.

And stop and think about your permanent 3rd degree burns? What have you ever done in your life time that warrants even a year of suffering 3rd degree burns? A month? Why don't you try and hold a burning match to your skin for 1 hour... 1 minute... heck... why I bet you think 10 seconds isn't very long. Hold that burning match to your skin for 10 seconds as punishment for the sinful things you have done in your life...

Was that JUST punishment? Was that merciful? Loving? Even if you did make it to the end of 10 seconds (and I am pretty sure you didn't) you had that 11th second to look forward to, didn't you?

But of course, after you are dead, you have no nerve cells... you have no brain to interpret the messages from those cells... YOU ARE DEAD. So the whole suffering eternity thing is just nonsense, isn't it?

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: And stop and think about your permanent 3rd degree burns? What have you ever done in your life time that warrants even a year of suffering 3rd degree burns? A month? Why don't you try and hold a burning match to your skin for 1 hour... 1 minute... heck... why I bet you think 10 seconds isn't very long. Hold that burning match to your skin for 10 seconds as punishment for the sinful things you have done in your life... Was that JUST punishment? Was that merciful? Loving?

People in Hell have long since forfeited any entitlement they might have had at one time to love and mercy.

It's a common objection that even the most wicked have only committed finite acts and thus do not deserve infinite suffering.

However; justice is a balance; viz: eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Since the dignity of God is off the scale— way above and beyond the dignities of either Nancy Pelosi or President Obama —then the punishment for people who break God's laws has to be off the scale too in order for justice to balance.

What some see as only mere finite acts, are far more serious than they can possibly imagine because God's honor is at stake; it has to be confirmed and it has to be vindicated. Men who denigrate a woman's honor by treating her with a lack of courtesy risk getting their teeth knocked out by an irate husband. But people who denigrate God's honor by ignoring His wishes, and disobeying His laws, risk far more than just the loss of their teeth; and rightly so because the Bible's God is not just another frustrated potentate; no, there aren't enough superlatives in the English language to adequately describe the esteem of His nobility.

I can tell you what the Bible's God is not, but I lack the language skills to tell you what He is; but one thing I can tell you is that His arrogant creatures just don't have the proper respect for Him because if they did, they wouldn't dare to even so much as take another breath without His consent.

RE: But of course, after you are dead, you have no nerve cells... you have no brain to interpret the messages from those cells... YOU ARE DEAD. So the whole suffering eternity thing is just nonsense, isn't it?

Though people in the flames are "dead" they are, in some way, still very much conscious.

†. Rev 14:9-11 . . And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice: If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[KCDAD]

Webers_Home;
People in Hell have long since forfeited any right they might have had at one time to love and mercy.

POE's LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ha! You are making fun of fundamentalists.

It's a common objection that even the most wicked have only committed finite acts and thus do not deserve infinite suffering.

You need to try harder to sound reasonable...

Since the dignity of God is off the scale— —then the punishment for people who break God's laws has to be off the scale too in order for justice to balance.

"dignity of God" What the heck is that? Is that like pride? (One of the deadly sins)

God's honor is at stake;

Oh my... how human is your god.

I can tell you what the Bible's God is not, but I lack the language skills to tell you what He is;

You are doing quite well describing YOUR god.

Though people in the flames are "dead" they are, in some way, still very much conscious.

And what is consciousness? Where does it exist? In the organ of living tissue called the brain. Are you suggesting the brain lives after the body is dead?

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: "dignity of God" What the heck is that?

Webster's defines dignity as: the quality, or state, of being worthy, honored, or esteemed

RE: Is that like pride? (One of the deadly sins)

†. Pro 6:16-19 . .There are six things Yhvh hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a man who stirs up dissension among kin.

Haughty eyes are different than pride. Characteristics like conceit, pretense, airs, and snobbery would no doubt fall into the "haughty" category.

The Hebrew word for pride is ga'own (gaw-ohn') which means: arrogance

Webster's defines arrogance as: a feeling, or an impression, of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims

Pride and haughtiness are juxtaposed at Pro 16:18

†. Pro 16:18 . . Pride goes before destruction, and haughtiness before a fall.

The arrogant are defiant, and no doubt resent God's requirement that they honor Him with worship because they don't see Him as a worthy superior; no, they regard God as a rival. It just galls highly competitive people to honor their rivals.

†. Isa 2:10-12 . . Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of Yhvh, and for the glory of His majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and Yhvh alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low.

†. Luke 18:9-14 . .To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:

. . Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself; saying: God, I thank you that I am not like other men— dishonest, predatory, promiscuous —or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

. . But the tax collector stood way in the back. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said: God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

. . I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home exonerated before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

†. Mtt 5:5 . . Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

NOTE: why inherit the "earth" rather than heaven? Answer: Because there's a brand spanking new cosmos in the works.

†. Isa 65:17 . . Behold; I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

†. 2Pet 3:10-11 . . The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a tremendous noise, and the elements will disintegrate with extreme heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be incinerated.

†. Rev 21:1 . . And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[KCDAD]

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Webster's defines dignity as: the quality, or state, of being worthy, honored, or esteemed

RE: Is that like pride? (One of the deadly sins)

Who determines that God is worthy, honorable and esteemed? You or me?


Certainly not God... that would be arrogance. That would imply that we were created by God in order that God would be worshiped by us, His creation... that is the height of arrogance and self absorption (see the story of Pygmalion in Greek mythology)

 

[Jpark]

I am really intrigued as to why Tartarus is in our Bibles, specifically in 2 Peter:

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"

Tartarus is part of the ancient Greek Religions or myths:

Tartarus was the deepest region of the Underworld that it was said that it took nine days and nine nights for an anvil to fall from the earth surface to the very bottom of Tartarus. Tartarus was the area where the Zeus and the Olympians had confined Cronus and the other male Titans.

Originally Uranus (Ouranos) had confined the Hundred-Handed and the Cyclopes in Tartarus, but Zeus had freed them, during the war against the Titans. They were instrumental to Zeus' victory. With the Titans confined in Tartarus, the Hundred-Handed guarded the prison as warders. It was described that Tartarus was surrounded by bronze fence with iron gates.

Only the most wicked of mortals were punished in Tartarus. This place was known as the Abode of the Accursed.


And from Thayer's Lexicon:

1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus.


Why is Peter drawing on pagan myths?

Anyone got a clue?

It is interesting that fallen angels are cursed.

Genesis 3:14-15 Genesis 3:14-15 - Passage Lookup - New King James Version - BibleGateway.com

You are cursed carries the idea of coming under God's judgment.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Accursed means to come under God's direct judgment.

Abode of the Accursed is the dwelling place of demons.

Matthew 25:41; Revelation 9

Tartarus, Gehenna, and Abyssos are the same. These are depictions of the dwelling place of demons called fallen angels.

The darkness in hell is caused by the smoke and the smoke in hell is caused by the fire.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: Though people in the flames are "dead" they are, in some way, still very much conscious. And what is consciousness? Where does it exist? In the organ of living tissue called the brain. Are you suggesting the brain lives after the body is dead?

I'm not suggesting anything, on the contrary, I'm reporting. I don't know how people remain conscious in the afterlife; I just know that they do.

†. Luke 16:22-26 . .The rich man died and was buried. In hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him: Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire . . . Abraham answered: Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

†. Rev 14:9-11 . . And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice: If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

†. Isa 66:23-24 . . All mankind will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the corpses of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view them with utter horror.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: Who determines that God is worthy, honorable and esteemed? You or me?

For the present, you are at liberty to decide for yourself which is the better man: you or God. In the future, that decision will be made for you.

†. Isa 45:23 . . I have sworn by my own name, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will profess allegiance to my name.

RE: Certainly not God... that would be arrogance. That would imply that we were created by God in order that God would be worshiped by us, His creation... that is the height of arrogance and self absorption

Do you resent God's demands for your respect? Are you so infected with a spirit of rivalry that even your creator Himself is regarded by you as a competitor? One of you is going to have to abdicate and concede defeat; and I can easily guarantee you it won't be God who does.

The way I see it, you have four options: 1) you are better than God, 2) you and God are equals, 3) God is better than you, and 4) there is no God. The choice is yours (for now).

C.L.I.F.F.

 

[KCDAD]

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RE: Though people in the flames are "dead" they are, in some way, still very much conscious. And what is consciousness? Where does it exist? In the organ of living tissue called the brain. Are you suggesting the brain lives after the body is dead?

I'm not suggesting anything, on the contrary, I'm reporting. I don't know how people remain conscious in the afterlife; I just know that they do.

You are very funny..

"It is not so much the things we don't know that get us into trouble, but the things we do know that just ain't so"

 

[KCDAD]

Webers_Home;
RE: Who determines that God is worthy, honorable and esteemed? You or me?

For the present, you are at liberty to decide for yourself which is the better man: you or God. In the future, that decision will be made for you.

"Who is the better man"... too too funny. God is not man. (look it up. It's in The Bible)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Subscribing

 

[Soulgazer]

I find this disturbing, on a very visceral level. Why you ask? I will tell you. The Gospel of John says that you are a child of whatever you follow. That doesn't mean little kid---it means that we, as adults, imitate what we follow. "If ye were Abraham's seed, ye would do the things of Abraham"
Me, I follow the Spirit of Truth. It leads me into all kinds of uncomfortable places. This is one of them.
Here, we have a minimum of two sets of distinct "children" following two separate and distinct "fathers". Both sets of children, will take after their father's nature of course.
One set of children will give unconditional love even to their enemies. The other set, well, it would not surprise me to read about them in the newspaper.