Tartarus?

[Tavita]

I am really intrigued as to why Tartarus is in our Bibles, specifically in 2 Peter:

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"

Tartarus is part of the ancient Greek Religions or myths:

Tartarus was the deepest region of the Underworld that it was said that it took nine days and nine nights for an anvil to fall from the earth surface to the very bottom of Tartarus. Tartarus was the area where the Zeus and the Olympians had confined Cronus and the other male Titans.

Originally Uranus (Ouranos) had confined the Hundred-Handed and the Cyclopes in Tartarus, but Zeus had freed them, during the war against the Titans. They were instrumental to Zeus' victory. With the Titans confined in Tartarus, the Hundred-Handed guarded the prison as warders. It was described that Tartarus was surrounded by bronze fence with iron gates.

Only the most wicked of mortals were punished in Tartarus. This place was known as the Abode of the Accursed.


And from Thayer's Lexicon:

1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus.


Why is Peter drawing on pagan myths?

Anyone got a clue?

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: I am really intrigued as to why Tartarus is in our Bibles,

Tartarus is not the only word in the Bible borrowed from Greek mythology. Haides (hah'-dace) is another one.

RE: Why is Peter drawing on pagan myths?

In order for Bible teachers to be effective, they need to be careful to use words and colloquialisms that the peoples of their own day and age readily understand. It's also a good idea for Bible teachers to keep up with current events too in order to be relevant.

It needs to be pointed out from time to time that the epistles were not intended for the world at large. 2Peter especially was sent "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ" (2Pet 1:1). In other words, 2Peter was intended for church folk rather than for non-church folk.

In church, it is essential to use words that the man in the pew readily understands.

†. 1Cor 14:18-19 . . In the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a foreign language.

In Peter's day, Greek culture was wide-spread; and pretty much everybody knew right off what the labels tartarus and haides represented. The interesting thing is: though the labels are mythical, the places the labels represent are real. What God's labels for those places are I don't know, but like they say: a rose in any language is the same flower.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[ShermanN]

Which English version of the Bible are you quoting from?

You are correct in that Tartarus is part of Greek mythology. It was the torturous realm within Hades, a place of punishment. In fact, it is the only Greek or Hebrew word in the Bible that come close to the English meaning of the word "Hell".

The reason Peter used the word "tartaroo" was to communicate in Greek the concept that the devil and his angels are held in a place of spiritual torment, punishment. It is the closest Greek or Hebrew word to meaning "Hell" in the Bible; though it's best not interpreted as "Hell" because of it's apparently only for the devil and his angles, and something that is related to Remedial Punishment. The word translated "judgment" is actually "krisis" which meant Remedial Punishment and implied one facing the Truth about themselves and their actions and this truth would work in them a positive change. Another Greek word, timoria, meant Vindictive Punishment - punishment meant to passify the demands of justice. It's significant to note that this word was not used; if Peter had meant a place of torture, then he could have used timoria. Rather, he used krisis to denote Remedial Punishment.

This verse actually says that the devil and his angles are being held in a place/state of remidial punishment. This and other examples of the judgment and remedial punishment of God are given to encourage us to live holy and blameless lives looking forward to the day of God, when the earth and heavens will be dissolved (2 Pet. 3.10-13)

Of course, this concept of God using punishment in the spiritual realm, the afterlife, to effect positive change is not part of traditional theology though there is significant indication of such in scripture.

Anyhow, the reason that the translators of the translation you quoted did not interpret "tartaroo" as "Hell" but only tranliterated it as "Tartarus" is because they did not have an English word that closely conveyed the meaning of that word in its context. The closest English word to tataroo in this context would likely be "Purgatory", though Purgatory is typically only thought of in context of the remedial punishment of humans.

Concerning the topic of Hell, it's significant to note that not one word in the Hebrew or Greek text of scripture can be correctly interpreted as "Hell". Sheol and Hades should be interpreted as the grave or the realm of the dead; everyone goes to Sheol/Hades. Even Jesus went to Hades when He died.

We've discussed Tartaroo already, and the only other word typically mistranslated as "Hell" in English translations is Gehenna, the name of Jerusalem's trash dump where there was a continuous fire burning the refuse and no end of maggots eating the dead flesh cast in there. And of course, the Jews understood Gehenna as a theological metaphor of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife, the spiritual eternal realm that most people passed through on their way to Ga Eden (Paradise, Heaven). Even Gehenna then would best be theologically translated as "Purgatory".

 

[Tavita]

Thank you for your reply Weber. Yes, I believe Hades is also of pagan origin.

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It needs to be pointed out from time to time that the epistles were not intended for the world at large. 2Peter especially was sent "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ" (2Pet 1:1). In other words, 2Peter was intended for church folk rather than for non-church folk.

This is a little off topic but maybe the epistles written by Peter were not written to the Gentiles but to Israel? Peter was the Apostle to the circumcised or to the Jews/Israel, Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles...

(Gal 2:8) For the one who worked through Peter by making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me by sending me to the gentiles.

(2Ti 1:11) For the sake of this gospel I was appointed to be a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the gentiles.


However, I agree that the epistles are for believers, not unbelievers, and are written for our instruction.

†.
I like these little red crosses you use!

In Peter's day, Greek culture was wide-spread; and pretty much everybody knew right off what the labels tartarus and haides represented. The interesting thing is: though the labels are mythical, the places the labels represent are real. What God's labels for those places are I don't know, but like they say: a rose in any language is the same flower.

I do believe you're correct in saying that most everybody knew what tartarus and hades were.

However, the place ~ Hades ~ IS a Greek myth and is NOT representing God's truth.

Hades should be translated as Unseen, or the realm of the dead, it is not the same place depicted in Greek mythology.

Tartarus is from Greek mythology, and the reason I asked about it was because the translators have translated Hades wrongly but they have not translated Tartarus wrongly.

I'm pretty sure God does not approve of pagan myths being taught as His truth.

 

[Tavita]

Which English version of the Bible are you quoting from?

I quoted from the CLV: ~ 2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"

The reason Peter used the word "tartaroo" was to communicate in Greek the concept that the devil and his angels are held in a place of spiritual torment, punishment. It is the closest Greek or Hebrew word to meaning "Hell" in the Bible; though it's best not interpreted as "Hell" because of it's apparently only for the devil and his angles, and something that is related to Remedial Punishment. The word translated "judgment" is actually "krisis" which meant Remedial Punishment and implied one facing the Truth about themselves and their actions and this truth would work in them a positive change. Another Greek word, timoria, meant Vindictive Punishment - punishment meant to passify the demands of justice. It's significant to note that this word was not used; if Peter had meant a place of torture, then he could have used timoria. Rather, he used krisis to denote Remedial Punishment.

Yes, I agree, but not that the devil is held in Tartaroo, only the angels.

This verse actually says that the devil and his angles are being held in a place/state of remidial punishment. This and other examples of the judgment and remedial punishment of God are given to encourage us to live holy and blameless lives looking forward to the day of God, when the earth and heavens will be dissolved (2 Pet. 3.10-13)

Why do you believe the devil is held in Tartaroo?

Of course, this concept of God using punishment in the spiritual realm, the afterlife, to effect positive change is not part of traditional theology though there is significant indication of such in scripture.

Absolutely!

Anyhow, the reason that the translators of the translation you quoted did not interpret "tartaroo" as "Hell" but only tranliterated it as "Tartarus" is because they did not have an English word that closely conveyed the meaning of that word in its context. The closest English word to tataroo in this context would likely be "Purgatory", though Purgatory is typically only thought of in context of the remedial punishment of humans.

Hmm.. yes, maybe they didn't have an English word to describe it. But as for 'purgatory' I thought it was only for believers. I'm not up to speed on what purgatory really means, though I did read a Catholic's description of it in here that it wasn't actually a 'place' but a 'state'. Anyway, I guess the angels are believers and purgatory would probably fit... though I reckon with that description most orthodox protestants would have a fit!

Concerning the topic of Hell, it's significant to note that not one word in the Hebrew or Greek text of scripture can be correctly interpreted as "Hell". Sheol and Hades should be interpreted as the grave or the realm of the dead; everyone goes to Sheol/Hades. Even Jesus went to Hades when He died.

Or the Unseen.

We've discussed Tartaroo already, and the only other word typically mistranslated as "Hell" in English translations is Gehenna, the name of Jerusalem's trash dump where there was a continuous fire burning the refuse and no end of maggots eating the dead flesh cast in there. And of course, the Jews understood Gehenna as a theological metaphor of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife, the spiritual eternal realm that most people passed through on their way to Ga Eden (Paradise, Heaven). Even Gehenna then would best be theologically translated as "Purgatory".

Yes, and today Gehenna is a beautiful parkland... so much for it being endless.

 

[ShermanN]

I quoted from the CLV: ~ 2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"

Yes, I agree, but not that the devil is held in Tartaroo, only the angels.
Why do you believe the devil is held in Tartaroo?

Of course, it doesn't say "the devil and his angels", but only "the sinning angels" or "sinning messengers", though I believe "angels" is the intended meaning. It references more what God is doing in them; God is working to reveal to them the error of their ways which is tormentful for them. For example, I'm sure that it upset Satan terribly that Job would not curse God no matter how badly he was treated.

Hmm.. yes, maybe they didn't have an English word to describe it. But as for 'purgatory' I thought it was only for believers. I'm not up to speed on what purgatory really means, though I did read a Catholic's description of it in here that it wasn't actually a 'place' but a 'state'. Anyway, I guess the angels are believers and purgatory would probably fit... though I reckon with that description most orthodox protestants would have a fit!

The concept of Purgatory that I was referencing was the fact that it is not endless or vindictive, but purposeful and ending in restoration. And yes, I too see it as a "state of being" not necessarily a "place".

Or the Unseen.

Yes, and today Gehenna is a beautiful parkland... so much for it being endless.

Metaphorical language is used to communicate spiritual truths. I believe that Gehenna and even Tartaroo reference a state of being where one is being subjected to the fiery judgment of God that is terrible even though it is remedial. The judgment of God is something that we can even embrace today. It is through embracing the judgment of God that we repent and are delivered from sin. I've experienced the judgment of God a couple of times in my life. There was much weeping and gnashing of teeth - literally; but it worked a tremendous work in my life, forever changing me for the good. On one side, facing the truth about the wickedness in your life is terrible; on the other side it is very liberating. Not only is one freed from the power of the sin itself, but one is also freed from the "need" to cover it up. Once it comes into the light, its power is broken! Hallelujah!

 

[Webers_Home]

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According to Webster's, Tartarus is in a section of Haides. So then, Haides and Tartarus are not in two separate locations any more than my wife's kitchen is in a separate location than our house. Her kitchen is in our house. So then, if someone were to burn down our house, my wife's kitchen would burn too.

The apostle John saw Haides thrown into a reservoir of liquefied flame.

†. Rev 20:14 . .Then Haides was thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

A grave situation for purgatory promoters arises with the incineration of Haides. It means that if the persons brought up from Haides to stand trial at the Great White Throne fail to pass muster, they will be returned to Haides and subsequently die all over again.

†. Rev 20:13-15 . .And Haides gave up the dead that were in it, and each person was judged according to what he had done. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What's the problem with a second death? Answer: there is only one resurrection per person. Therefore, nobody is coming back from the liquefied flame.

†. Dan 12:2 . . And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life; some to shame and everlasting contempt.

†. John 5:27-30 . . The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

So then, since neither Haides nor Tartarus are true purgatories, then what are they? Answer: they are just what the Bible says they are: holding cells where the accused are kept in custody till their trial date at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15.

NOTE: only the "dead" have to appear at the Great White Throne. The dead are mentioned four times, while the "living" aren't mentioned at all. That's because the living don't have to stand trial for their sins.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life.

Jesus said that the living have eternal life; which is a present tense verb. So then, since eternal life is a kind of life that cannot die, then the living are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Messiah Jesus our Lord.

In addition; the living are already citizens of Messiah's kingdom right now; no delay, and no waiting period.

†. Col 1:13 . .He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

In other words; the "dead" of Rev 20:11-15 are unredeemed sinners.

The Greek word for redemption is apolutrosis (ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis) which means: to ransom in full.

Webster's defines ransom as: a consideration paid, or demanded, for the release of someone or something from captivity.

People pinning their hopes on a purgatory are like somebody sawing off a limb while they're perched on it. It's far and away better to pin your hopes on that ransom and thus join the living in Messiah's kingdom and become impervious to the wages of sin.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[hybrid]

Jesus said that the living have eternal life; which is a present tense verb. So then, since eternal life is a kind of life that cannot die, then the living are impervious to the wages of sin.

but the living you are referring to here cannot be dead once and alive then, since you correctly said that eternal life is always at the present, in other words it has no beginning and no end neither past nor future, eternal life exists in timelessness and therefore did not sprang up in some point in time.

ergo, the living is always eternally living and the dead is as always never alive in the first place.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: the living is always eternally living and the dead is as always never alive in the first place.

Eternal life isn't an inherent human condition. No, human life is the inherent condition; while eternal life has to be obtained from the Bible's designated custodian of eternal life.

†. John 4:13-14 . . Jesus answered the woman: Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

†. John 17:2 . . For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

People with eternal life didn't always have it; no, they began their existence among the ranks of the dead.

†. Eph 2:1 . .You he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

It's necessary for the dead to heed Jesus' message in order to obtain eternal life.

†. John 5:25-26 . . Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Those who don't listen to Christ will of course remain among the ranks of the dead.

Here's a cute story to illustrate what's meant by "listening"

A mommy was having a difficult time of it getting her little boy to bed on time at night so she decided to try the "heads-up" method. Instead of announcing it was bedtime and expecting him to drop everything and head for the bathroom to brush his teeth, the mommy gave him a five-minute warning. Well, it didn’t work. She still had to battle with him to go to bed. Dejected and discouraged, she complained to her husband; "That boy just doesn't listen".

That little boy heard his mother's words plain as day, but let them go in one ear and out the other.

†. Acts 28:25-28 . .The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our ancestors, saying:

. . Go to this people and say: Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive; for the hearts of this people have become calloused. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn so that I should heal them.

. . Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!

What Paul was speaking of there was not spiritual blindness and deafness, no, he was speaking of an attitude. Yhvh's people willfully blocked God out just like that little boy willfully blocked his mother out; indicating that not all men are drawable to God because some simply do not wish to be drawn.

†. Zech 7:11-13 . . But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in His spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Therefore it is come to pass, that as He cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the Lord of hosts.

There is such a thing as a point of no return, People who think they can go on pulling their shoulder away from God indefinitely are mistaken because His patience has its limits.

†. Mtt 10:13-15 . . If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth: it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

†. Prov 1:26-33 . . I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, when your terror comes like a hurricane, and your destruction comes like a tornado, when distress and anguish come upon you.

. . Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently, but they will not find me. Because they hated knowledge and chose not to revere the Lord, they would have none of my counsel and despised my every rebuke.

. . Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way, and be filled to the full with their own desires. For the turning away of the simple will slay them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them; but whoever listens to me will dwell safely, and will be secure, without fear of evil.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[KCDAD]

Because the Church was steeped in Greco-Roman pagans who listened to Paul who was also steeped in pagan mythologies about the Christos, and the translators didn't know what Valley of Ben Hinnom was....

 

[Tavita]

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According to Webster's, Tartarus is in a section of Haides. So then, Haides and Tartarus are not in two separate locations any more than my wife's kitchen is in a separate location than our house. Her kitchen is in our house. So then, if someone were to burn down our house, my wife's kitchen would burn too.

Yes, I agree. From Greek mythology Tartarus is way down underneath Hades.

The apostle John saw Haides thrown into a reservoir of liquefied flame.

†. Rev 20:14 . .Then Haides was thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]


Rev 20:14 And death and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the unseen[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

(Diaglott-NT) And the death and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the invisible[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] were cast into the lake of the fire; this the death the second is.

(Phillips NT) Then death and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the grave[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] were themselves hurled into the lake of fire, which is the second death.


I don't know exactly when paganism entered our bibles, but Hades is not of God, it's pagan mythology.

Also, the Lake of Fire is never said to be a literal lake of [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]liquified[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] flames. That would mean God Himself is literal liquified flames...

Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Joh 4:24 "[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]God is spirit[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." [/FONT]

A grave situation for purgatory promoters arises with the incineration of Haides. It means that if the persons brought up from Haides to stand trial at the Great White Throne fail to pass muster, they will be returned to Haides and subsequently die all over again.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I'm not promoting purgatory. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Why, if you believe so called pagan Hades is of God and is a place of fiery punishment (as the pagans say)... are people being punished BEFORE judgment at the GWTJ?
[/FONT]

†. Rev 20:13-15 . .And Haides gave up the dead that were in it, and each person was judged according to what he had done. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What's the problem with a second death? Answer: there is only one resurrection per person. Therefore, nobody is coming back from the liquefied flame.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There's that unscriptural 'literal' lake of fire again.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You may see the entire person... spirit, soul and body being destroyed endlessly, but I see the flesh, the devil and the world being burned FROM the person themselves in the LOF. Just as judgment which begins at the house of God... WE are put through the fire to destroy the flesh and the works of the devil, in us... now. This is why the Second Death cannot hurt us. It does not ever say in the scriptures that Christians will not go through the Lake of Fire. It is as we die to the flesh, die to self, that the Second Death... cannot harm us. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]It is a promise to those who 'overcome'.... overcome what? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Not all Christians are overcomer's... there are an overwhelming amount of Christians who sit back on their laurels and float along thinking they're alright mate... because they've been washed by the blood of the Lamb. But there's more to being a Christian than initial salvation, otherwise why does Jesus Christ Himself say the above?[/FONT]

†. Dan 12:2 . . And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life; some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That word for everlasting is Olam... and Olam does not mean endless. The Israelites/Jews had no concept of endless torment until they were taken to Babylonia and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]learned[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] pagan ways... they brought those pagan ways back to Jerusalem at it's restoration.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Eternity (olam)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Olam refers to 'time'... God uses time in creation but there is no time in the eternals or the eternal nature of God. [/FONT]

†. John 5:27-30 . . The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Amen.[/FONT]

So then, since neither Haides nor Tartarus are true purgatories, then what are they?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Pagan mythology.[/FONT]

Answer: they are just what the Bible says they are: holding cells where the accused are kept in custody till their trial date at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]No, just the grave. [/FONT]

Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Messiah Jesus our Lord.

In addition; the living are already citizens of Messiah's kingdom right now; no delay, and no waiting period.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Are you hearing what the scripture says?... the wages of sin is DEATH, that is what Jesus paid for, not endless torment.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Yes, the living are already citizens of Messiah's Kingdom right now... and if they are part of God's Kingdom now then they are already going through the Second Death... now... if they truly are sons of the living God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire. [/FONT]

†. Col 1:13 . .He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

In other words; the "dead" of Rev 20:11-15 are unredeemed sinners.

The Greek word for redemption is apolutrosis (ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis) which means: to ransom in full.

Webster's defines ransom as: a consideration paid, or demanded, for the release of someone or something from captivity.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ALL have already been ransomed:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ALL:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]pas; [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]a prim. word; all, every: - all (731), all the things (7), all...things (1), all kinds (1), all men (14), all people (4), all respects (3), all things (126), all *(1), always *(3), any (16), any at all (1), anyone (3), anything (3), anything *(1), continually *(6), entire (4), every (128), every form (1), every kind (9), every respect (1), every way (2), everyone (71), everyone’s (1), everyone *(1), everything (45), forever *(1), full (2), great (2), no *(15), none *(1), nothing (1), nothing *(1), one (4), perfectly (1), quite (1), whatever (3), whatever *(1), whoever (7), whole (18).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Notice it is not some, but all.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That's why [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]we [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]have been[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] given [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the ministry of reconciliation (not the ministry of death or condemnation).[/FONT]

People pinning their hopes on a purgatory are like somebody sawing off a limb while they're perched on it. It's far and away better to pin your hopes on that ransom and thus join the living in Messiah's kingdom and become impervious to the wages of sin.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Yes, you're right.[/FONT]

 

[Tavita]

Because the Church was steeped in Greco-Roman pagans who listened to Paul who was also steeped in pagan mythologies about the Christos, and the translators didn't know what Valley of Ben Hinnom was....

Yes, the Church was steeped in Greco-Roman paganism... especially after Constantine.

But no, they weren't listening to Paul, because Paul, in his Epistles, NEVER said a word about Hades (hell), or Tartarus.

Funny that.... if it was SO important, and such a big deal, then why didn't Paul (an Apostle to the Gentiles) speak about these things?

Paul may have been steeped in pagan mythologies before his conversion to Christ, but afterwards he gave the 'whole counsel of God'...

Act 20:27 For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God.

And yes, the translators didn't know what the Valley of Ben Hinnom meant.

 

[KCDAD]

But no, they weren't listening to Paul, because Paul, in his Epistles, NEVER said a word about Hades (hell), or Tartarus.

Funny that.... if it was SO important, and such a big deal, then why didn't Paul (an Apostle to the Gentiles) speak about these things?

thanks for pointing that out... I will go back and check that out...

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: 1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all

That's literally correct. The benefit of Christ's crucifixion isn't restricted to an elite class of citizenry. It's for all ages, races, genetics, ethnics, cultures, and genders. Latino gang-bangers in Los Angeles, Chinese businessmen in Hong Kong, Japanese housewives in Tokyo, Caucasian school children in Europe, Inuit hunters in the Arctic regions, Native Americans in Montana, along with Jews and Arabs, and the Negro woman who stars in The #1 Lady's Detective Agency in Botswana are just as eligible to obtain a rescue from the wrath of God via the cross as America's first-ever Mulatto president Mr. Barack Hussein Obama.

However, though the ransom is available to all; not all will succeed in obtaining it.

†. Mtt 22:14 . . For many are invited, but few are chosen.

In point of fact, the benefit of Christ's crucifixion is limited to believers; it is not granted to unbelievers.

†. John 3:36 . . He who disbelieves the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

†. Mrk 16:16 . . He who believes and is baptized will be spared; but he who disbelieves will be damned.

†. Rev 21:8 . . The unbelieving and the reluctant . . shall have their place in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Tavita]

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RE: 1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all
However, though the ransom is available to all; not all will succeed in obtaining it.

Not all will succeed in obtaining it..... sounds like it's all our own work... are you proposing that we must work our way to heaven?

It's not by man's will that he is saved but by God's will and the gift of faith.

~ Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

~ Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

†. Mtt 22:14 . . For many are invited, but few are chosen.

There are many lukewarm christians. Few are chosen to become the elect.

~ Jas 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

"Firstfruits refers to the first portion of the harvest that is given to God. Most notably the firstfruits are:

• The first to come in time
  
• A pledge or hope of the greater harvest to follow
  
• Specially dedicated to God.

In point of fact, the benefit of Christ's crucifixion is limited to believers; it is not granted to unbelievers.

So, forty years or so ago, before you became a christian, the benefit of Christ's crucifixion was not granted to you?

 

[hybrid]

ransom is different from amnesty. in amnesty program you need to avail to be free. but when you are ransomed, you are free unconditionally.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: In point of fact, the benefit of Christ's crucifixion is limited to believers; it is not granted to unbelievers. So, forty years or so ago, before you became a christian, the benefit of Christ's crucifixion was not granted to you?

I was already a Christian twenty-four years prior to that, having been baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church in 1944, and subsequently attending catechism thru to Confirmation. However, believing in Rome's version of Christianity is not the same as believing in Christ's version.

It wasn't until 1968 that I was introduced to the Christ offering a 100% fail-safe, sin-proof, commandments-proof, God-proof ransom from the wrath of God and full time protection from retribution.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life.

Jesus' have verb is in the grammatical present tense, indicating that those who heed his message and trust in his God, have eternal life right now: no delay, and no waiting period. In point of fact, every believer is currently in the right-now possession of eternal life.

†. John 3:36 . . All who believe in God's son have eternal life.

†. John 6:47 . . I assure you; he who believes has eternal life.

The believers to whom John penned his first epistle were in possession of eternal life even before his letter arrived.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

The most important advantage to the possession of eternal life is that since it's a kind of life that cannot die, then its beneficiaries are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Messiah Jesus our Lord.

Unbelievers of course don't have eternal life, nor do they have a 100% fail-safe, sin-proof, commandments-proof, God-proof ransom from the wrath of God and full time protection from retribution. No, unbelievers abide in Death, and in grave danger of the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted in Rev 19:20, 20:10-15, and 21:8

†. John 3:36 . . He who disbelieves the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

†. Mrk 16:16 . . He who believes and is baptized will be spared; but he who disbelieves will be damned.

†. Rev 21:8 . . The unbelieving and the reluctant . . shall have their place in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

In point of fact, disbelievers are already signed up for Hell: no delay, and no waiting period.

†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves stands condemned already

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[KCDAD]

" I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life."

Have you thought that this might actually mean that Jesus is saying that YOU ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, YOU WILL NEVER BE CONDEMNED and YOU HAVE ALREADY PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE... and you can acknowledge that it already happened? That it is not conditional on heeding or trusting, except that one can't know or experience it unless one hears it, heeds it and trusts it.
Which of course means: EVERYONE has "eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life"

Like the old bumper sticker: The only difference between Christians and non-Christians is that Christians KNOW they are forgiven

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: Have you thought that this might actually mean that Jesus is saying that YOU ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, YOU WILL NEVER BE CONDEMNED and YOU HAVE ALREADY PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE... and you can acknowledge that it already happened? That it is not conditional on heeding or trusting, except that one can't know or experience it unless one hears it, heeds it and trusts it. Which of course means: EVERYONE has "eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life"

Sorry; but the grim reality is: only believers have eternal life.

†. John 3:36 . . All who believe in God's son have eternal life.

†. John 6:47 . . I assure you; he who believes has eternal life.

†. John 3:36 . . He who disbelieves the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

People in Hell don't have eternal life: no, they have human life; which is a created kind of life that came into existence in the book of Genesis. Eternal life is the life of God, who had neither a beginning nor will ever have an ending. There is animal life, vegetable life, bird life, sea life, human life, angel life, and God life. People in Hell are stuck there with human life.

When believers leave this earthen mausoleum, they shed their human life like a dead skin due to a supernatural surgical procedure performed without the services of a doctor.

†. Col 2:11-13 . . In him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ— buried with him in baptism, in which you also were raised with him through faith in the operation of God, who raised him from the dead.

People who cross over to the other side without first obtaining that weird circumcision will cross over with human life rather than eternal life; which is a very bad situation since human life is denied entry into God's kingdom.

†. John 3:3 . . I assure you, unless you are born from above, you can never see the kingdom of God.

†. John 3:5 . .The truth is, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

†. John 3:6-8 . . Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven. So don't be puzzled at my statement that you must be born again.

†. 1Cor 15:50 . . Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

The only way people can escape their existence as a human life is to transfer from Adam's race to Christ's race because "in Adam" all die; while "in Christ" all shall be made alive. The trick is to get "in" Christ; which is yet another supernatural procedure performed by God's Spirit; and it's only performed for believers, not for unbelievers. Note the words trusted and believed

†. Eph 1:13-14 . . In him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation— in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Tavita]

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RE: In point of fact, the benefit of Christ's crucifixion is limited to believers; it is not granted to unbelievers. So, forty years or so ago, before you became a christian, the benefit of Christ's crucifixion was not granted to you?

I was already a Christian twenty-four years prior to that, having been baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church in 1944, and subsequently attending catechism thru to Confirmation. However, believing in Rome's version of Christianity is not the same as believing in Christ's version.

It wasn't until 1968 that I was introduced to the Christ offering a 100% fail-safe, sin-proof, commandments-proof, God-proof ransom from the wrath of God and full time protection from retribution.

So you are still saying 'Christ's crucifixion is limited to believers; it is not granted to unbelievers'.

It is granted to unbelievers, that's how they become believers.

This is what Paul says:

Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Tell me... what of the person, who's maybe in their fifties, who lives in a remote part of the world, not hearing a word about Christ until a missionary comes along, hears the 'good news' and believes? By what you have said 'it is not granted to unbelievers', he, being an unbeliever, could never have believed because he was an unbeliever. You don't make any sense.

The point is that Christ's WORK and what He accomplished for mankind... was done on the CROSS over 2000 years ago.... 'It is finished', is what He said. Now it is up to believers to go into all the world and tell unbelievers what Christ HAS already done for them, that is the ministry of reconciliation Paul speaks of.

Eternal life has been obtained by Christ for all mankind, all men will come, but each in their own time (the time God appoints for them) and order.

*I have a feeling we are misunderstanding each other.