Tangible proof is here

[dad]

.........The fact that the future will be a very different place, as well, I have argued, as the past, depends of the existance of the spiritual.
If the natural were all there were, the creation debate is lost. We need a Spirit that created things, and did change things, and will change things.
I cannot deny that the evidences for a spiritual world are here. Besides the millions of miracles and supernatural happening such as ghost sightings, we have one big important one --prophesy!
..........Not only good, or christian ghosts and spirits are seen and christian miracles happen, but there are manifestations of this other known plane across the board. Good and bad.
..........Jesus was born to a virgin, in Bethlehem, His life fulfilled many prophesies. This is proof of more than the natural.
Others have also prophesied, in fact, we soon will see an amazing example of this in the evil ruler about to be unveiled to men. The bible says this Antichrist will 'forcast his devices'. So even the bad things are proofs of some supernatural.
I read an example of one politician who made a prophesy in the news. the link is below. Generally, there has been errors in worldly, non biblical prophets, but still they got it enough to be evidence something more is at work. If the spiritual worls is real, then, naturaliatic philosophy is incomplete, and unable to predict the future and discern the spiritual elements there, and in the past.

.."A top Russian parliamentary leader has told Ekho Moskvy radio station that an attack on Iran is inevitable and that it will occur on March 28th. The leader of the Liberal Democrats Vladimir Zhirinovsky also believes that the Muslim riots were orchestrated by the US to garner European backing for the military strike.
Rhetoric has heated significantly in the past week with Donald Rumsfeld yesterday warning that a military option was on the table, echoing the comments of Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist who said that the US was prepared to take military action.
Also, Israeli acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stated that Iran would pay "a very heavy price" if the Islamic Republic defiantly resumes full-scale uranium enrichment to build nuclear weapons.
Zhirinovsky told the Russian radio ...."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/070206attackiran.htm

..........Strangely enough, if I remember right, this is the same guy who said something like Russia ought to invade Israel some years ago. This of course is another prophesy soon to be fulfilled from the bible, in case some are not familiar with that stuff! Finally, the Antichrist will stop the daily animal sacrifices at some point. No scrifices have existed since about 70 AD! The end could not have come without this, and this guy coming first!! The Sanhederin was reestablished I think last year it was, and we will see the sacrifices resumed soon. The proofs atr here, irifutible, and tangible!
..........Natural only loses the orgins, and future of man debate. (Parents with kids 20, to 25, beware)

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Wait, I thought this forum was for evolution vs creationism debate.

 

[Nathan Poe]

.........The fact that the future will be a very different place, as well, I have argued, as the past, depends of the existance of the spiritual.

So far you're partially correct. You need a spirtual element, and you need it to behave exactly as you've said it would.

If the natural were all there were, the creation debate is lost. We need a Spirit that created things, and did change things, and will change things.

And the desperate need for something does not insure its existence. Creationists should learn this.

I cannot deny that the evidences for a spiritual world are here. Besides the millions of miracles and supernatural happening such as ghost sightings, we have one big important one --prophesy!

I prophesize that the New Jersey Devils will win the Stanley Cup, and the New York Yankees will win the World Series! (Not necessarily in the same year)

Have I proven the spiritual yet?

..........Not only good, or christian ghosts and spirits are seen and christian miracles happen, but there are manifestations of this other known plane across the board. Good and bad.

So... Capser the Friendly Ghost = Christian or not?

..........Jesus was born to a virgin, in Bethlehem, His life fulfilled many prophesies. This is proof of more than the natural.

Not really -- his life was chronicled by people were were well aware of and desperately hoping to "fulfill" the Hebrew prophecies.

Besides, unless Mary was examined by a OB-GYN, you really have nothing but an anonymous say-so that she was in fact a virgin.

Others have also prophesied, in fact, we soon will see an amazing example of this in the evil ruler about to be unveiled to men. The bible says this Antichrist will 'forcast his devices'. So even the bad things are proofs of some supernatural.

So... a bad, bad man will come to power -- SOMEDAY...

I can get better and more accurate prophecies from the Weather Channel.

I read an example of one politician who made a prophesy in the news. the link is below. Generally, there has been errors in worldly, non biblical prophets, but still they got it enough to be evidence something more is at work. If the spiritual worls is real, then, naturaliatic philosophy is incomplete, and unable to predict the future and discern the spiritual elements there, and in the past.

So the politician is a prophet?

.."A top Russian parliamentary leader has told Ekho Moskvy radio station that an attack on Iran is inevitable and that it will occur on March 28th. The leader of the Liberal Democrats Vladimir Zhirinovsky also believes that the Muslim riots were orchestrated by the US to garner European backing for the military strike.
Rhetoric has heated significantly in the past week with Donald Rumsfeld yesterday warning that a military option was on the table, echoing the comments of Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist who said that the US was prepared to take military action.
Also, Israeli acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stated that Iran would pay "a very heavy price" if the Islamic Republic defiantly resumes full-scale uranium enrichment to build nuclear weapons.
Zhirinovsky told the Russian radio ...."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/070206attackiran.htm

A political/military leader predicting a military strike? Whoa.... we've got a prophet here! Surely this man could ONLY have received such insight through supernatural means...

..........Strangely enough, if I remember right, this is the same guy who said something like Russia ought to invade Israel some years ago. This of course is another prophesy soon to be fulfilled from the bible, in case some are not familiar with that stuff! Finally, the Antichrist will stop the daily animal sacrifices at some point. No scrifices have existed since about 70 AD! The end could not have come without this, and this guy coming first!! The Sanhederin was reestablished I think last year it was, and we will see the sacrifices resumed soon. The proofs atr here, irifutible, and tangible!

And incoherent.

..........Natural only loses the orgins, and future of man debate. (Parents with kids 20, to 25, beware)

Dad, you have completely lost it -- insofar as you've actually had "it."

 

[Nathan Poe]

"Prophecy: Two Bull's eyes out of a possible million."

"He could foretell wars and famines, though that was not so hard, for there was always a war and generally a famine somewhere."

"A genuine expret can always foretell a thing that is five hundred years away easier than he can a thing that's only five hundred seconds off."

-- Mark Twain, all three.

 

[Phred]

You know Julius Ceasar was born of a virgin too.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

.........The fact that the future will be a very different place, as well, I have argued, as the past, depends of the existance of the spiritual.
If the natural were all there were, the creation debate is lost. We need a Spirit that created things, and did change things, and will change things.
I cannot deny that the evidences for a spiritual world are here. Besides the millions of miracles and supernatural happening such as ghost sightings, we have one big important one --prophesy!
..........Not only good, or christian ghosts and spirits are seen and christian miracles happen, but there are manifestations of this other known plane across the board. Good and bad.
..........Jesus was born to a virgin, in Bethlehem, His life fulfilled many prophesies. This is proof of more than the natural.
Others have also prophesied, in fact, we soon will see an amazing example of this in the evil ruler about to be unveiled to men. The bible says this Antichrist will 'forcast his devices'. So even the bad things are proofs of some supernatural.
I read an example of one politician who made a prophesy in the news. the link is below. Generally, there has been errors in worldly, non biblical prophets, but still they got it enough to be evidence something more is at work. If the spiritual worls is real, then, naturaliatic philosophy is incomplete, and unable to predict the future and discern the spiritual elements there, and in the past.

.."A top Russian parliamentary leader has told Ekho Moskvy radio station that an attack on Iran is inevitable and that it will occur on March 28th. The leader of the Liberal Democrats Vladimir Zhirinovsky also believes that the Muslim riots were orchestrated by the US to garner European backing for the military strike.
Rhetoric has heated significantly in the past week with Donald Rumsfeld yesterday warning that a military option was on the table, echoing the comments of Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist who said that the US was prepared to take military action.
Also, Israeli acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stated that Iran would pay "a very heavy price" if the Islamic Republic defiantly resumes full-scale uranium enrichment to build nuclear weapons.
Zhirinovsky told the Russian radio ...."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/070206attackiran.htm

..........Strangely enough, if I remember right, this is the same guy who said something like Russia ought to invade Israel some years ago. This of course is another prophesy soon to be fulfilled from the bible, in case some are not familiar with that stuff! Finally, the Antichrist will stop the daily animal sacrifices at some point. No scrifices have existed since about 70 AD! The end could not have come without this, and this guy coming first!! The Sanhederin was reestablished I think last year it was, and we will see the sacrifices resumed soon. The proofs atr here, irifutible, and tangible!
..........Natural only loses the orgins, and future of man debate. (Parents with kids 20, to 25, beware)

What is this drivel doing in Creation/Evolution? Not to mention, of course, that nothing in it is tangible proof of anything.

 

[Freodin]

So the "tangible" proof is that certain things will happen.

And if they don´t happen at a certain predicted time, it was of course the "natural, physical, secular" method of prediction that was wrong. Never the true, spiritual prophecy.

And so these "tangible" events will happen. Just wait for them. Any time now. Or next week. Or next year. Before the next century, surely. Or shortly after that.

 

[Caphi]

Tell me, dad, you claim that this is proof of your imaginary Y-Land (which you call the Spiritual, a name which is but a deception). However - you have said explicitly many times in the past that you COULDN'T show any proof because, after all, Y is completely undetectable at the moment. So, are you claiming that this non-Christian Russian politician has a direct pipeline to the Y Universe? Please answer. If it's yes, that means that your Y (or spiritual, or physics patch, or whatever name you want to slap on it) is NOT exclusive to Christianity. If no, then you'll have to accept that this guy is merely basing his prediction on military analysis and possibly espionage or intelligence.

(Y/N)_

Choose wisely, though it won't be too well for you.

 

[dad]

So far you're partially correct. You need a spirtual element, and you need it to behave exactly as you've said it would.

Not really. Just the tangible evidence there is more than the natural, means our theories have to reflect that.

And the desperate need for something does not insure its existence. Creationists should learn this.

Your silly speculation, trying to stick the universe in a speck, and minority opinion does not wave the Great spiritual away.

I prophesize that the New Jersey Devils will win the Stanley Cup, and the New York Yankees will win the World Series! (Not necessarily in the same year)

Have I proven the spiritual yet?

Except the bible is 100% accurate. Even the worldly prophets have more than silliness, at least much of the time.

So... Capser the Friendly Ghost = Christian or not?

Cartoons are not of a certain cut of cloth.

Not really -- his life was chronicled by people were were well aware of and desperately hoping to "fulfill" the Hebrew prophecies.

Says you. They, however were witnesses.

So the politician is a prophet?

The antichrist will forecast his devices. Whether he comes to power as a politician or in a coup, who knows?

A political/military leader predicting a military strike? Whoa.... we've got a prophet here! Surely this man could ONLY have received such insight through supernatural means...

What if he was right? How would he know the day?

 

[dad]

Wait, I thought this forum was for evolution vs creationism debate.

Showing there is more than the natural only is important to a debate where one side bases all only on that.

 

[dad]

Tell me, dad, you claim that this is proof of your imaginary Y-Land (which you call the Spiritual, a name which is but a deception).

Your low opinion of the spiritual is your own.

However - you have said explicitly many times in the past that you COULDN'T show any proof because, after all, Y is completely undetectable at the moment.

AS for natural science evidence about the past or future, no, I don't think that is something we really have in a definitive way.

So, are you claiming that this non-Christian Russian politician has a direct pipeline to the Y Universe?

If you mean the spiritual world, I wouldn't know. Why would someone making prophesies having a spiritual connection be some surprise? The antichrist, for those not familiar with bible prophesy, will lead Russia in some mid east wars.

Please answer. If it's yes, that means that your Y (or spiritual, or physics patch, or whatever name you want to slap on it) is NOT exclusive to Christianity.

Where would anyone get the idea that only Christians are involved in the spirit world??? Have you ever heard of gods, ghosts, and demons, and devils? How would these spirits have anything to do with people who believe in Jesus?

If no, then you'll have to accept that this guy is merely basing his prediction on military analysis and possibly espionage or intelligence.

Why? How would I assume some politician knows the day that Israel will attack Iran? (Possibly using the nuclear tactical weapons as bunker busters, some say). This would be news to me. Unless you had some evidence or indication otherwise?

 

[Caphi]

Not really. Just the tangible evidence there is more than the natural, means our theories have to reflect that.

Not at all. There are plenty of perfectly normal natural explanations.

Your silly speculation, trying to stick the universe in a speck, and minority opinion does not wave the Great spiritual away.

And your silly speculation and minority opinion does not make the spiritual bend to what you need it to be.

Except the bible is 100% accurate.

Prove it.

Even the worldly prophets have more than silliness, at least much of the time.

I predict that on April 2, you will have to go to a brown building.

Cartoons are not of a certain cut of cloth.

Neither are books.

Says you. They, however were witnesses.

Biased witnesses.

The antichrist will forecast his devices. Whether he comes to power as a politician or in a coup, who knows?

Clearly you should, having, as you apparently do, the ability to see other Universes down to the smallest detail.

What if he was right? How would he know the day?

Why, through a combination of military analysis and intelligence reports. No shadow world-changing Universes needed.

 

[dad]

So the "tangible" proof is that certain things will happen.

When you see the sacrifice taken away, for example, yes, many things are tangible.

And if they don´t happen at a certain predicted time, it was of course the "natural, physical, secular" method of prediction that was wrong. Never the true, spiritual prophecy.

The bible can't fail. The last seven year period of world history has many things in it that will happen, in a precise timeframe!
The past prophesies happened on cue as well. Cyrus (if memory serves) was named many years before he was born. The betrayal price of Jesus, buried in a rich man's tomb, no bones broken, pierced hands and feet, risng from dead, and town of birth and other things all foretold. Quite tangible.

 

[Caphi]

Your low opinion of the spiritual is your own.

I haven't a low opinion of the spiritual. I do, however, have a low opinion of the thing which you CALL the spiritual. To borrow your own phrase, mightn't we call it the SFSC (Spiritual, falsely so called)?

AS for natural science evidence about the past or future, no, I don't think that is something we really have in a definitive way.

Then why not imagine that it was made of lemon custard? You can't definitively know that it wasn't, right?

If you mean the spiritual world, I wouldn't know. Why would someone making prophesies having a spiritual connection be some surprise? The antichrist, for those not familiar with bible prophesy, will lead Russia in some mid east wars.

Bush is also prophesying, and he is starting wars in the Middle East. Would you say HE might be the man you're talking abow?

Where would anyone get the idea that only Christians are involved in the spirit world??? Have you ever heard of gods, ghosts, and demons, and devils? How would these spirits have anything to do with people who believe in Jesus?

So you admit that there are gods besides your own?

Why? How would I assume some politician knows the day that Israel will attack Iran? (Possibly using the nuclear tactical weapons as bunker busters, some say). This would be news to me. Unless you had some evidence or indication otherwise?

The US received intelligence reports about the WTC attacks beforehand without ever having to contact spirits or other Universes.

 

[dad]

Not at all. There are plenty of perfectly normal natural explanations.

No.

Clearly you should, having, as you apparently do, the ability to see other Universes down to the smallest detail.

But you wouldn't believe it anyhow. Seems like he may come in on the arms of a flood. Sounds like it could well be a coup, after all he is so vile, he may not be electable.

Why, through a combination of military analysis and intelligence reports. No shadow world-changing Universes needed.

Pretty good reports. March 28th. I don't know how good a prophet this guy is, but there are track records of some, like Jeanne Dixon, and Nostradammas. More than coincidence could explain. Israel becoming a nation is pretty tangible, the bible talked of that a long time before it happened. Not long after the Messiah came through on a donkey to Jerusalem, the temple was destroyed, not a stone standing upon another, and the east gate was walled up, and closed as well. Do you need to try to punch the sealed up gate, and see if it's tangible?

 

[Caphi]

No.

Sure there are. Espionage is just one of them.

But you wouldn't believe it anyhow.

Not really, but that has more to do with all the problems with vague prophecies than it does with any closed-mindedness on my part. Ever heard of Nostradamus?

Seems like he may come in on the arms of a flood. Sounds like it could well be a coup, after all he is so vile, he may not be electable.

You only prove my point. These prophecies are so vague and ambiguous that I could say I fulfilled one of them just by eating Froot Loops (tm).

Pretty good reports. March 28th. I don't know how good a prophet this guy is, but there are track records of some, like Jeanne Dixon, and Nostradammas. More than coincidence could explain. Israel becoming a nation is pretty tangible, the bible talked of that a long time before it happened. Not long after the Messiah came through on a donkey to Jerusalem, the temple was destroyed, not a stone standing upon another, and the east gate was walled up, and closed as well. Do you need to try to punch the sealed up gate, and see if it's tangible?

You prove nothing. A book makes a prophecy and then fulfils it later? Sounds to me less like divine power and more like good story-writing.

 

[Maxwell511]

"Prophecy: Two Bull's eyes out of a possible million."

"He could foretell wars and famines, though that was not so hard, for there was always a war and generally a famine somewhere."

"A genuine expret can always foretell a thing that is five hundred years away easier than he can a thing that's only five hundred seconds off."

-- Mark Twain, all three.

I don't know Stephen Colbert predicted the winners of the best actor, actress, supporting actress, support actor and best motion picture in the 78th Oscars. Stick that in your skeptical hippie pipe and smoke it.

 

[dad]

...
Not really, but that has more to do with all the problems with vague prophecies than it does with any closed-mindedness on my part. Ever heard of Nostradamus?

Yes, and guess why? He made predictions.

You only prove my point. These prophecies are so vague and ambiguous that I could say I fulfilled one of them just by eating Froot Loops (tm).

Jewish wars, naming countries that participate in invasions, routes, etc. are not vague! Animal sacrifices are something real that used to happen, and will only happen again for a small small time near the end of the world, this is not cereal. It is specific. Bethlehem was a specific town. Raising from the dead is specific, and not natural. Hands and feet pierced is not vague! Hundreds of tangible, fulfilled things, and more we will see, and are seeing as we speak in the present times.
What about those Indian swamis, who climbed ropes? Was that all tricks, or was there some spiritual there? Houdini had a spiritual experience, his mother from the spirit world, he claimed, save his life in a trick gone bad one time! (under the ice of a river, he lost his way to the hole cut in the ice)

Even atomic war and it's symptoms like eyes melting out of their sockets was predicted long before such weapons were dreamed of!!! Specific, tangible, real evidences of more than the natural world.

 

[AirPo]

... but there are track records of some, like Jeanne Dixon, and Nostradammas. ...

says...

"I like him, he's silly!"

 

[Maxwell511]

says...

"I like him, he's silly!"

Stephen Colbert. Do you deny his predictive abilities?