Tangible proof is here

[dad]

I don't know Stephen Colbert predicted the winners of the best actor, actress, supporting actress, support actor and best motion picture in the 78th Oscars. Stick that in your skeptical hippie pipe and smoke it.

Guesses from a few choices the same year are different than things like this.
" The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28), (Isaiah 45:1), (Isaiah 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy l50 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.
(Probability of chance fulfillment=1 in 10^15.) "
http://www.believers.org/hughross.htm

See any difference?

 

[Maxwell511]

Guesses from a few choices the same year are different than things like this.
" The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28), (Isaiah 45:1), (Isaiah 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy l50 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.
(Probability of chance fulfillment=1 in 10^15.) "
http://www.believers.org/hughross.htm

See any difference?

I'm gonna say no.

 

[dad]

" The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28), (Isaiah 45:1), (Isaiah 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy l50 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.
(Probability of chance fulfillment=1 in 10^15.)

I'm gonna say no.

Predicting oscar winners is more like a coin toss than this kind of odds - 1 in 10^15 !!!!

Nailing major events down over many centuries, apparently, secular scientists, say involve grat odds. The writing is on the wall here.

" Some time before 500 B. C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B. C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A. D. Also note that from 1 B. C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus's crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A. D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.
(Probability of chance fulfillment=1 in 10^5.)
*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists.."

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Guesses from a few choices the same year are different than things like this.
" The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28), (Isaiah 45:1), (Isaiah 45:13).

Really? Let's see...

Isaiah 44:28:
who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd
and will accomplish all that I please;
he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"
and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid."

Isaiah 45:1:
This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

Isaiah 45:13:
I will raise up Cyrus [b] in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
says the LORD Almighty.

Hmm...nice and vague, as usual. No mention of either Babylon or Egypt, and a nice general "set my exiles free". Did he rebuild Jerusalem? Rebuild the temple? Strip kings of their armor? Make God's ways straight?

Isaiah made this prophecy l50 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.

Wow, I'm impressed. A bunch of nice, general predictions that can be shoehorned into just about anything after the event.

(Probability of chance fulfillment=1 in 10^15.) "

A completely bogus number which Ross apparently pulled out of his hat. Even if is claims regarding the 'prophecy' were true, there is no way a number can be assigned to this sort of thing.

 

[dad]

[edits in blue..] Really? Let's see...

Isaiah 44:28:
who says of Cyrus, [God even gave the exact name 150 years before the man was born] 'He is my shepherd
and will accomplish all that I please;
he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"[Nothing vague here, a man named Cyrus will rebuild this certain city!!!!!!!]
and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid."

Isaiah 45:1:
This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

Isaiah 45:13:
I will raise up Cyrus [b] in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free, [in that day, His people were the Jews, this is specific stuff here, incredible!!!] but not for a price or reward,
says the LORD Almighty.

Hmm...nice and vague, as usual. No mention of either Babylon or Egypt, and a nice general "set my exiles free". Did he rebuild Jerusalem? Rebuild the temple? Strip kings of their armor? Make God's ways straight?

Yes, the rebuilt temple of course meant the city came up around it, and yes, this helped God's ways be stright, and bang on, and right on path, and schedule, etc. As for Egypt, etc, in the same chapter, we see this.
14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

A completely bogus number which Ross apparently pulled out of his hat. Even if is claims regarding the 'prophecy' were true, there is no way a number can be assigned to this sort of thing.

Well I think it illustrates it is far beyond the belittling and trivializing attempts you make at least!

"There are approximately 2500 prophecies in the Bible, 2000 of which have already come to pass. The odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/other_prophecies.html

"
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited:[/SIZE][/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D. [/SIZE][/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10. [/SIZE][/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Relative to the second destruction of Jerusalem, this execution has roughly an even chance of occurring before or after that event, that is, one chance in 2. [/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 105."[/SIZE][/FONT]
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_odds.html
Tangible evidence, not hocus pocus.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Yes, the rebuilt temple of course meant the city came up around it, and yes, this helped God's ways be stright, and bang on, and right on path, and schedule, etc. As for Egypt, etc, in the same chapter, we see this.
14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.




Well I think it illustrates it is far beyond the belittling and trivializing attempts you make at least!

"There are approximately 2500 prophecies in the Bible, 2000 of which have already come to pass. The odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/other_prophecies.html

"
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited:[/SIZE][/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D. [/SIZE][/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10. [/SIZE][/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Relative to the second destruction of Jerusalem, this execution has roughly an even chance of occurring before or after that event, that is, one chance in 2. [/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 105."[/SIZE][/FONT]
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_odds.htmlTangible evidence, not hocus pocus.

I'll just address the rather stupid attempt to assign odds to this sort of thing. It's ridiculous. Assigning a 1 in 10 probability to god in human form being killed? How absurd can you get?

 

[dad]

I'll just address the rather stupid attempt to assign odds to this sort of thing. It's ridiculous. Assigning a 1 in 10 probability to god in human form being killed? How absurd can you get?

The object of the prophesy was someone yet unborn would be killed in a certain timeframe is where the odds come in. The part of who it was I don't think they did calculate, it was the when. You are the one who is wrong.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

The object of the prophesy was someone yet unborn would be killed in a certain timeframe is where the odds come in. The part of who it was I don't think they did calculate, it was the when. You are the one who is wrong.

Sorry, but false. To quote from your own post:

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
You are the one who is wrong.

 

[Maxwell511]

Predicting oscar winners is more like a coin toss than this kind of odds - 1 in 10^15 !!!!

Fine if you wish to downplay the prophet Stephen. I present you the prophets Angelo and Maria Gallina

 

[dad]

Sorry, but false. To quote from your own post:

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
You are the one who is wrong.

Ha. Missed that, guess we'll have to knock a zero off at the end of the number.
There was, of course no chance of killing Jesus, unless He allowed it, as we know, He could have called in the angel calvary by lifting his little finger.
I think it is still safe to say that the timeframe was the greater factor of chances factored in. The one you mentioned (silly one I admit, don't know who put that thing in there.) was a 1 in 10. The one here is greater by it looks like about 500 times!

"Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D. "
Now, when you add these many many prophesies all in one book, each with impossibly huge margins of error, together, they make truly impossible odds of being chance!! Absolutely. Which means these tangibly incredible numbers constitute genuine evidence.

 

[dad]

Fine if you wish to downplay the prophet Stephen. I present you the prophets Angelo and Maria Gallina

Amazing. The chances are miracle like. Now, let's see them pick the numbers with one guess, rather than playing twenty years straight, and write down their guess! Let it be for 150 years, or 3500 years in the future. Then, let's see them have hundreds of these prophesies in the same book all coming true!

 

[Electric Skeptic]

"Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D. "

That figures as stupid as the other one. It assumes that the Messiah's ministry WOULD begin in one of those 5,000 years. It needn't have done so. It also assumes that Jesus was the messiah, which is by no means certain. It is, in short, a ludicrous figure.

Now, when you add these many many prophesies all in one book, each with impossibly huge margins of error, together, they make truly impossible odds of being chance!! Absolutely. Which means these tangibly incredible numbers constitute genuine evidence.

These numbers constitute nothing at all except somebody's attempt to demonstrate improbability. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying these events weren't improbable. They were. But to attempt to assign numbers to them is sheer idiocy.

 

[Maxwell511]

Amazing. The chances are miracle like. Now, let's see them pick the numbers with one guess, rather than playing twenty years straight, and write down their guess! Let it be for 150 years, or 3500 years in the future. Then, let's see them have hundreds of these prophesies in the same book all coming true!

You obivously ain't a gambler. The amount of times played is irrelevant.

 

[jamesrwright3]

I am a Christian and this is clearly the wrong forum!

 

[USincognito]

Wow a parodady thread thats more about apologetics (and that's stretching it) has four pages of replies, while other prefectly good threads die without even getting ten. Sad guys... just sad.

 

[dad]

You obivously ain't a gambler. The amount of times played is irrelevant.

You must be kidding. If someone won every time with bible prophesy over thousands of years, no casino could pay out. Someone just winning twice in one month or year is just a drop in the lake. Besides, can you prove no spirit influenced things there at all? Be it good or bad? They say 'Luck' is a name derived from Lucifer, or was it Loki. Either way, I think that there is spiritual influence behind the scenes. Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise!

 

[Maxwell511]

You must be kidding. If someone won every time with bible prophesy over thousands of years, no casino could pay out. Someone just winning twice in one month or year is just a drop in the lake. Besides, can you prove no spirit influenced things there at all? Be it good or bad? They say 'Luck' is a name derived from Lucifer, or was it Loki. Either way, I think that there is spiritual influence behind the scenes. Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise!

I don't know the only written ticket that survives to this day of the Gallina's making a lotto prophecy is the one that came to pass.

 

[dad]

I am a Christian and this is clearly the wrong forum!

Hope I don't misunderstand here, but are you suggesting somehow that the spiritual is not a big factor in the future? Or that it is not a key factor in understanding creation? Or perhaps that it does not pertain to the past? I think you would not have much of a case there. Look at the flood, how do you think the ark door was closed? Who sent the rains? That there is a real spiritual, is an important part of the orgins debate, and the past and future. The new heavens coming when this physical temporary one passes away demonstrates that big differences exist. The flood and the pre flood times, combined with the fossil record, and other evidence demands big differences. Not everyone wants to deny the spiritual as a factor and leave the bible as a bunch of fables, regardless if you do, christian, or not!

If this actually was some innocent comment to someone else, and I took it wrong, disregard the post, and carry on.

 

[dad]

I don't know the only written ticket that survives to this day of the Gallina's making a lotto prophecy is the one that came to pass.

Written ticket prophesy? You lost me there.

 

[Hydra009]

They say 'Luck' is a name derived from Lucifer, or was it Loki.

Survey says: X

Etymology of luck -
15c. from M.Du. luc, shortening of gheluc "happiness, good fortune," of unknown origin. Related to M.H.G. g(e)lücke, Ger. Glück "fortune, good luck." Perhaps first borrowed in Eng. as a gambling term. Lucky break dates from 1938. To luck out "succeed through luck" is Amer.Eng. colloquial, first attested 1954.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=luck

That's right, the word luck actually comes from a middle dutch word - gheluc (happiness). No lokis or Lucifers here.