Talmud

[yonah_mishael]

For those who are interested, Birkat haMinim (בִּרְכַּת הַמִּינִי&#1501 is a blessing that was written to draw a line in the sand regarding those who had left standard Judaism and were believing in heretical doctrines. One of the groups that were to be excluded as a result of this blessing (which is really a curse) were Christians. It was written as an addition to the Eighteen Benedictions that made up the central portion of every Jewish prayer service. It was probably added as a response to the fact that Christians were coming into synagogue services for the purpose of making converts, and the people were troubled and didn't know how to respond.

In English the blessing is translated thus by Artscroll:

And for slanderers let there be no hope; and may all wickedness perish in an instant; and may all Your enemies be cut down speedily. May You speedily uproot, smash, cast down, and humble the wanton sinners – speedily in our days. Blessed are You, HaShem, Who breaks enemies and humbles wanton sinners.​

This is what the Artscroll commentators have to say about it:

Chronologically, this is the nineteenth blessing of Shemoneh Esrei; it was instituted in Yavneh, during the tenure of Rabban Gamliel II as Nassi of Israel, some time after the destruction of the Second Temple. The blessing was composed in response to the threats of such heretical Jewish sects as the Sadducees, Boethusians, Essenes, and the early Christians. They tried to lead Jews astray through example and persuasion, and they used their political power to oppress observant Jews and to slander them to the anti-Semitic Roman government.

In this atmosphere, Rabban Gamliel felt the need to compose a prayer against the heretics and slanderers, and to incorporate it in the Shmoneh Esrei so that the populace would be aware of the danger.

Despite the disappearance from within Israel of the particular sects against whom it was directed, it is always relevant, because there are still non-believers and heretics who endanger the spiritual continuity of Israel (Yaaros D'vash).​

How does the incorporation of this blessing constitute the creation of a whole new religion? Are you suggesting that Christianity (read: Messianic Judaism) is the continuation of the original while Judaism is an aberration and an alteration from the source?!

 

[yedida]

Now if I were about in those days, I wouldn't see that as slanderous against me. Perhaps it's because I'd probably be then as I am now - I do not go anywhere with the purpose of "converting" anyone to my way of thinking, whether they are Jewish or antinomian Christian. If I am asked, I will answer and the answer may not be what the asker is wanting to hear, but that is not my problem, they asked and opened the door. But I will not just offer correction, especially not if I am a guest somewhere.
(Now, here on this forum, it's a different situation - it's assumed that someone coming in here knows the ins and outs or wants to learn of them.)

 

[yonah_mishael]

Yeah, I don't think I take this blessing as particularly insulting either. Maybe it's just me, but every group and its mother was excluding others back them (think of how exclusive the Essenes were!). It is perfectly natural for groups to pray that God will cause their competition to become hopeless and be cut off. It just happens that in this case, such a prayer was written into the liturgy of future generations. I don't see the big deal myself.

 

[awakeningekklesia]

I don't think it's common for Reform Rabbis to do serious Talmud study with congregants and like Chava said, Talmud study is generally for Jews. I honestly have no idea why a non-Jew would want to study Talmud.

I believe there are things in christianity that will never be fully understood with out first understanding our Jewish counter parts and our Jewish roots.

There are teachers who teach with a Jewish perspective and it's some of the most profound teaching I have ever heard and the teaching has given me a heart for Jewish things and Jewish culture

I'm some one who doesn't like to be spoon feed by someone else. Those who teach with a Jewish perspective do so cause theyv studied themselves. Most likely the resources theyv studied from are Christian resources as well.

I would imagine if I want to dive into Jewish culture and Jewish study to further my understanding of Christianity and God, instead of being spoon feed by other chrisitians with the small pieces of meat they spit back out why not just dive into real Jewish culture myself?

Most people around me think I'm weird but Idc. The Jewish understand is so profound. The smallest things becomes richer than the things Christians makes the biggest deal about.

I mean take for example when the bible talks about a trumpet. A Christian reading over that has in most cases no ideal what it's really Talking about. And those who know that the trumpet isn't a trumpet but a shofar in most cases have no ideal how deep the subject of a shofar runs. To a christian when the bible speaks of a trumpet it's no big deal. To a Jew though it's a compete other story. It's things like that, that inspire me to dive into the Talmud and Jewish culture

 

[yonah_mishael]

I mean take for example when the bible talks about a trumpet. A Christian reading over that has in most cases no ideal what it's really Talking about. And those who know that the trumpet isn't a trumpet but a shofar in most cases have no ideal how deep the subject of a shofar runs. To a christian when the bible speaks of a trumpet it's no big deal. To a Jew though it's a compete other story. It's things like that, that inspire me to dive into the Talmud and Jewish culture

They have no idea.

Why is that a good reason to study the Talmud?

Do you not know that you can get all the intro you need to Judaism by reading Rabbi Joseph Telushkin's books or those of Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin? If you're specifically interested in the Talmud, there's Everyman's Talmud by Avraham Cohen.

This will keep you from coming to wrong conclusions about Judaism and Jewish teachings. Those who do not have a teacher cannot understand the intricacies of the Talmud and will come away with ideas that are not supported by Judaism and are actually contrary to Halachah.

 

[Qnts2]

And it is a good opinion. Why would messianics study the writings of those who not only rejected the Messiah, but built a new religion to keep the Jewish people from finding or following him?

I've heard of MJ congregations saying the Amidah in their services. I wonder if they speak the 19th, and have any idea what they're saying.

As a Messianic Jew, I can't say I study the Talmud, but I do quote from the Talmud since it does help in a good historical view of Judaism in Jesus day.

I was more interested in the Talmud is my days in Judaism, before finding Yeshua.

One of the biggest issues with reading the Talmud, is that it uses a unique language and style. Many misunderstand what it is actually saying. The internet is loaded with people who misquote and misinterpret the Talmud, going so far as to misunderstand so completely, that they think the Talmud says exactly the opposite of what it really is saying.

Some also demonize the Talmud. It was written by men, who studied the Tenakh (OT), and sincerely wanted to show the meaning and what the Jewish people were to do, based on the writings of the Tenakh. These were sincere men, who sought to rightly present the Tenakh. Jesus quoted as correct, some of the men who are quoted in the Talmud.

Do we need the Talmud to follow Yeshua? No.
Is the Talmud difficult to read and understand without some training? Yes.
Is the Talmud an evil book? No
Is the Talmud inspired by God? No.
Does the Talmud have some value? Historically, yes.

 

[pat34lee]

How does the incorporation of this blessing constitute the creation of a whole new religion? Are you suggesting that Christianity (read: Messianic Judaism) is the continuation of the original while Judaism is an aberration and an alteration from the source?!

The Birkat was mentioned only as part that some Messianics repeat without knowing what they're doing. It is only a part of what changed in Judaism after the temple was destroyed. Many of the current customs were added to the original in order to keep Jews isolated from and wary of Messianics and other Christian groups. The preferred bible was changed from the one that Christians used. Even the haftarahs were changed in order to skip those used to prove the Messiahship of Yeshua.

Neither Christianity or Judaism stayed as they were in the first century. Messianics or MJs today are the closest to returning to their original faith.

 

[ChavaK]

Many of the current customs were added to the original in order to keep Jews isolated from and wary of Messianics and other Christian groups. The preferred bible was changed from the one that Christians used. Even the haftarahs were changed in order to skip those used to prove the Messiahship of Yeshua.

Interesting perspective, and I've heard the claim that the haftarahs were changed, but have never given merit to that statement. The vast majority of the prophets are not mentioned in them.

BTW, haven't seen you around in awhile, nice to have you back. You've been well, I hope?

 

[yonah_mishael]

Even the haftarahs were changed in order to skip those used to prove the Messiahship of Yeshua.

This is simply untrue.

 

[awakeningekklesia]

They have no idea.

Why is that a good reason to study the Talmud?

Do you not know that you can get all the intro you need to Judaism by reading Rabbi Joseph Telushkin's books or those of Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin? If you're specifically interested in the Talmud, there's Everyman's Talmud by Avraham Cohen.

This will keep you from coming to wrong conclusions about Judaism and Jewish teachings. Those who do not have a teacher cannot understand the intricacies of the Talmud and will come away with ideas that are not supported by Judaism and are actually contrary to Halachah.

From my understanding the knowledge in the Talmud is the top end of Jewish thought. On that note I conclude my reasoning. I want the deep thought. I want the deep reasoning. Is the Talmud a massive headache to me? Yes sir. Do I understand alot of it. No sir. I know it's not inspired by God so I take is as a grain of salt. And I hope you know, you giving me these reasons to not study it, is only fueling and building my want to study it my friend


Btw in idea/ideal I apologize. Honestly my spelling and grammar is not the best so my humble apologies

 

[Qnts2]

From my understanding the knowledge in the Talmud is the top end of Jewish thought. On that note I conclude my reasoning. I want the deep thought. I want the deep reasoning. Is the Talmud a massive headache to me? Yes sir. Do I understand alot of it. No sir. I know it's not inspired by God so I take is as a grain of salt. And I hope you know, you giving me these reasons to not study it, is only fueling and building my want to study it my friend


Btw in idea/ideal I apologize. Honestly my spelling and grammar is not the best so my humble apologies

The knowledge of the Talmud, in Judaism, is respected, but is not the 'top end of Jewish thought'.

 

[awakeningekklesia]

Well what is then

 

[pat34lee]

Interesting perspective, and I've heard the claim that the haftarahs were changed, but have never given merit to that statement. The vast majority of the prophets are not mentioned in them.

BTW, haven't seen you around in awhile, nice to have you back. You've been well, I hope?

I am doing good, I suppose. I went back to work temporarily, but that ended and I'm looking for another job. I am glad not everyone ran when things got a little rough here. It doesn't say much for them when things really get bad, as they will soon.

One of the ways I know that the haftarahs have changed is from the New Testament. In Luke 4:16-21, Yeshua was given the scroll and reads from Isaiah 61:1, which is now excluded.

 

[pat34lee]

This is simply untrue.

Do you know of any excluded sections that do not contain some messianic reference(s) used by Christians?

 

[ChavaK]

Do you know of any excluded sections that do not contain some messianic reference(s) used by Christians?

I'm not sure what you mean by "excluded sections" since very little of the
Prophets/Writings are used for the haftorah, and they have to have a similar
theme to the parsha.

 

[Lulav]

I am doing good, I suppose. I went back to work temporarily, but that ended and I'm looking for another job. I am glad not everyone ran when things got a little rough here. It doesn't say much for them when things really get bad, as they will soon.

One of the ways I know that the haftarahs have changed is from the New Testament. In Luke 4:16-21, Yeshua was given the scroll and reads from Isaiah 61:1, which is now excluded.

Hey Pat, good to see you, I hope you get more permanent employment very soon.

I guess you are speaking of this:

The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down.

Isaiah 61 :1 The Spirit of the Sovereign L-RD is on me, because the L-RD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the L-RD's favor



I'm not sure what you mean by the first verse being missing?

 

[pat34lee]

Hey Pat, good to see you, I hope you get more permanent employment very soon.

I guess you are speaking of this:

Isaiah 61 :1 The Spirit of the Sovereign L-RD is on me, because the L-RD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the L-RD's favor

I'm not sure what you mean by the first verse being missing?

Thanks, I need to get back to work. Bills and stuff. And its good to see you still here.

This is from the link in my earlier post (bold font added for emphasis by me):

A perusal of the list of haftarot read today reveals that the chapter that Jesus recited in the synagogue in Nazareth is not read on any of the days in the Jewish calendar on which a haftarah follows the Torah reading that is, on none of the Sabbaths nor on any of the major holidays or fast days. This statement also holds true for the "special" Sabbaths during the year that is, when the Sabbath coincides with rosh hodesh (the first day of the month), Hanukkah, one of the intermediate days of Passover or Sukkot, etc. This point is especially blatant with respect to the seven Sabbaths between Tisha B'Av and Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. On each of them, haftarot are read from the chapters of consolation in the Book of Isaiah (chapter 40 onward). Is this merely a coincidence? Apparently, Isaiah 61:1 is deliberately not read in the synagogue, but it is difficult to determine when and where the decision was made to exclude it. The heads of Jewish communities, who had some familiarity with Christian faith and literature, preferred to refrain from reading the same chapter Jesus read in the synagogue in Nazareth, which he claimed corroborated his divine mission on earth. When the customs concerning the fixed haftarah readings were formalized, the abhorrence felt toward this chapter remained and is reflected in its exclusion from the list of haftarot in use today. This point is especially noteworthy given the fact that the chapters preceding and following that problematic passage chapter 60, and the end of chapter 61 and chapters 62 and 63, respectively are read each year in public as haftarot.
What happened to Jesus' haftarah? - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
​

 

[pat34lee]

I'm not sure what you mean by "excluded sections" since very little of the
Prophets/Writings are used for the haftorah, and they have to have a similar
theme to the parsha.

There seem to be several places at least where the readings skip one or several verses but contain the rest of the chapter.

On the second day of Rosh Hashanah, the haftarah that is read is one of the most wonderful chapters in the Prophets Jeremiah 31. It stops at the famous words that have become part of the Jewish liturgy today: "Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:20). It is no mere coincidence that the haftarah ends here and does not continue with the next few verses, to the promise that Jeremiah utters regarding the new covenant that God will draw up in the future with his people; one of the most commonly quoted passages in the New Testament. The only exception to the prohibition on reading those verses is a source that is on the very margins of the old, peripheral Balkan custom.
What happened to Jesus' haftarah? - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

​

 

[Steve Petersen]

I would have to see evidence that the Torah and Haftarah portions were the same in Jesus' day as they are today. I have heard that there may have been a triennial Torah cycle at one time.

 

[yedida]

I had heard that the triennial method was more in use in Yeshua's time than the annual. Personally, I really dislike it. It causes you to jump from the one to the next with large sections left either unread (that would be the reader's fault, of course) and/or undiscussed (and many just getting started in the Tanakh, this can be very problematic).