Talking Snakes and Donkeys? Really?

[~Zao~]

....
but earth being influenced by the heavens is not impossible, and if it was true, it wouldn't even be surprising or unexpected

"if you can see the stars, they can see you" (so to speak)

That kinda flies in the face of 'on earth as it is in heaven'

 

[Erik Nelson]

That kinda flies in the face of 'on earth as it is in heaven'

how so???

if Heavenly powers really actually can and do influence earth...

then those influences would "impose" Heavenly authority onto our planet, so to speak

that would exactly precisely be, Heavenly Kingly Authority, as already in heaven, so now on earth too

I'm certainly trying to show, that 'on earth as it is in heaven' is not only perfectly possible, it's perfectly plausible and even probable, UNSURPRISING, to be EXPECTED

 

[~Zao~]

how so???

if Heavenly powers really actually can and do influence earth...

then those influences would "impose" Heavenly authority onto our planet, so to speak

that would exactly precisely be, Heavenly Kingly Authority, as already in heaven, so now on earth too

I'm certainly trying to show, that 'on earth as it is in heaven' is not only perfectly possible, it's perfectly plausible and even probable, UNSURPRISING, to be EXPECTED

Well it is part of the Lord's prayer so doubting the effectiveness would be another version of double-mindedness if you were to actually pray that prayer. It would suggest that what Jesus' will toward the Father that He wanted to share with His followers is for exactly that.
It has been perfectly possible over the centuries too when considering the healing ministries of hospitals etc (before big pharma) that Sophia wisdom has brought into existence where humans, usually Christians, have worked to establish those things.
The imposition though wouldn't be seen unless it was a more specific form of grace that acts without human will but more according to prophesy such as the case of Cyrus.

 

[Tom 1]

a talking parrot? realy?

Are we talking about a live parrot here?

 

[Moral Orel]

Sure, they were taken as "wives." But think it through a little.

Imagine you're a 14 year old girl 3000 years ago. Your village is invaded and utterly destroyed. Your parents and elders are slaughtered in front of you. You and your little brother are taken hostage, and your little brother is later executed. Then you're "married" to one of the men who did this. Shortly afterwards he wants to consecrate the marriage. Explain to me how this isn't rape.

Gee whiz! 14? She's practically an old maid! Doesn't sound like a "little one" to me.

 

[tampasteve]

MOD HAT ON

NOTICE:
This thread has had a cleaning. There were MANY off topic posts as well as posts including flames, goads, and other violations. As a reminder, this is a debate forum so please expect debate - but keep it civil. If you do not want to participate, just stop replying, there is no reason to make it personal. If you dislike someone's approach or writing, put them on ignore.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Steve Petersen]

i think if you were honest you might admit that you have ulterior motives for disbelieving...

I am honest. This is the second time in this thread you have made personal shots at me. Stop now.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I am honest. This is the second time in this thread you have made personal shots at me. Stop now.

trying to understand your perspective is not ad hominen, but I will try to be more sensitive

please tell me your finite standard of evidence for supernatural phenomena on earth?

Saint Paul claims he received meaningful intelligible audio video messages ("divine voices & visions") from super intelligence in heaven

given that that is perfectly possible, then what would you accept as trustworthy corroboration of such claims?

if it was true, then what should Paul have done that he didn't do to make his case, that he really was Contacted & communicated to?

please clarify your finite standard of evidence

 

[Steve Petersen]

trying to understand your perspective is not ad hominen, but I will try to be more sensitive

please tell me your finite standard of evidence for supernatural phenomena on earth?

There is none, because supernatural phenomenon don't happen.

Saint Paul claims he received meaningful intelligible audio video messages ("divine voices & visions") from super intelligence in heaven

So what? People claim all kinds of crazy things.

given that that is perfectly possible, then what would you accept as trustworthy corroboration of such claims?

In whose book are supernatural phenomenon 'perfectly possible?' This is in now way a given.

if it was true, then what should Paul have done that he didn't do to make his case, that he really was Contacted & communicated to?

Who knows; maybe he had a psychotic episode.

please clarify your finite standard of evidence

Observable, testable, falsifiable.

 

[Par5]

What has always amused me about the story of Balaam and the donkey is that when the donkey first speaks to Balaam his reaction was like that of someone who had just been asked out to dinner, joining in the conversation without so much as a blink of an eye.
This Christian made animation of the Ballam story, although not the intention, shows just how ludicrous the story is. Then at the end of the story there was the threat that Balaam would have been murdered if he didn't turn back. Of course, you can't have a good bible story unless someone gets killed, or at least faced with the threat of being killed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Absurd in the extreme. But, hey the Bible says so...........

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think we might want to look at the literary contexts in both instances here and see if we detect any "differences" in the genres of writing presented. I mean...maybe a donkey CAN talk, under certain conditions.

 

[Par5]

It would have helped if I had provided the link to the Balaam video in post number 70
Here it is.

 

[Erik Nelson]

There is none, because supernatural phenomenon don't happen.

Observable, testable, falsifiable.

you don't know that, that is your opinion and bias

you are not demonstrating an understanding of science -- "Observable, testable, falsifiable" only applies to (1) natural phenomena that (2)humans can control in a lab setting

exaggerating for clarity, if an advanced alien chose to communicate to earth one time (the "wow" signal, say) and then chose to stop transmitting...

that would be a (1) supra natural phenomenon that (2) humans could never control

Seth Shostak would be completely correct to suspect alien contact...

but your misapplication of naturalism...

would never even acknowledge the POSSIBILITY...

and you would just start Accusing him of being a quack

in that hypothetical scenario, you WOULD be wrong

in the case of saint Paul, you MAY be wrong

your biased and close minded opinion is not the more popular upon this planet due to any actual logical rational basis

 

[Erik Nelson]

It would have helped if I had provided the link to the Balaam video in post number 70
Here it is.

Balaam heard an Angel of God speaking out of THIN AIR...

if that is possible, then speaking out of a tangible physical creature is all the more POSSIBLE

I think I am correct to say that no Jew Christian or Muslim thinks that the NITROGEN AND OXYGEN MOLECULES in the air actually somehow spoke to Balaam. Rather, the expression "Angel communicated to Balam" refers to a psychic experience. An experience inside the skull of Balam According to which he perceived. Himself to receive meaningful intelligible audio video communications from heaven.

Ipso facto, no Jew Christian or Muslim has to claim that the donkey Voiced the sounds recorded in biblical scripture, either. Again, it was just a continuation of Balams PSYCHIC experience.

 

[Par5]

Balaam heard an Angel of God speaking out of THIN AIR...

if that is possible, then speaking out of a tangible physical creature is all the more POSSIBLE

I think I am correct to say that no Jew Christian or Muslim thinks that the NITROGEN AND OXYGEN MOLECULES in the air actually somehow spoke to Balaam. Rather, the expression "Angel communicated to Balam" refers to a psychic experience. An experience inside the skull of Balam According to which he perceived. Himself to receive meaningful intelligible audio video communications from heaven.

Ipso facto, no Jew Christian or Muslim has to claim that the donkey Voiced the sounds recorded in biblical scripture, either. Again, it was just a continuation of Balams PSYCHIC experience.

Psychotic more like!

 

[Erik Nelson]

Psychotic more like!

I'm under the impression that Naturalism appeals to our Pride

it implies and REQUIRES that humans are the masters of their environment, capable of controlling everything, so as to study nature systematically under human controlled conditions

but the Bible says that there is a BIGGER fish in our cosmic pond, and whenever it swims by, it exerts a supra dominant influence that leaves humans in bewildered wonderment

doesn't wisdom warn there is always a bigger fish out there?

would that seriously be so surprising?

 

[Par5]

I'm under the impression that Naturalism appeals to our Pride

it implies and REQUIRES that humans are the masters of their environment, capable of controlling everything, so as to study nature systematically under human controlled conditions

but the Bible says that there is a BIGGER fish in our cosmic pond, and whenever it swims by, it exerts a supra dominant influence that leaves humans in bewildered wonderment

doesn't wisdom warn there is always a bigger fish out there?

would that seriously be so surprising?

Well, you certainly appear bewildered.

 

[Radagast]

Absurd in the extreme. But, hey the Bible says so...........

That's the argument from incredulity.

It's a fallacy.