Taking Questions on Creationism

Bugeyedcreepy said:

So, they didn't "surely die" then, and the serpent was correct?

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They died (as God's breath left them) just as all Humans (descendants of Adam) die and leave this world. They went to be with Jesus where they will be forever since they were both born again or created in God's Image which is Spiritually and Eternally in Christ. Gen 5:1-2 At the Rapture, they will put on their incorruptible bodies and live physically forever. 1Co 15:42

Lord God/Jesus told Adam the Truth since Adam and all of his descendants die or leave the present world. Satan is a Liar.

Aman777 said:

Both Adam and Eve died and went to be with Jesus. It was 930 years after both were born again Spiritually. Gen 5:1-2 After Cain killed Abel, Adam and Eve became Immortal, again. What is interesting is the their death happened on the present 6th Day/Age. If it had not, then the Devil would be telling the Truth to Eve and the Lord would be a Liar for He told Adam that "in the day" he disobeyed he would surely die and he and all other Humans...did.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

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so Adam and Eve weren't experiencing days? All of Genesis references to Days are in the singular 24 hour version of Day or Days (3:8, 3:14, 3:17, etc), so how do you get these thousand-year-days? There doesn't seem to be any biblical support for it.

Aman777 said:

They died (as God's breath left them) just as all Humans (descendants of Adam) die and leave this world. They went to be with Jesus where they will be forever since they were both born again or created in God's Image which is Spiritually and Eternally in Christ. Gen 5:1-2 At the Rapture, they will put on their incorruptible bodies and live physically forever. 1Co 15:42

Lord God/Jesus told Adam the Truth since Adam and all of his descendants die or leave the present world. Satan is a Liar.

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Where in the bible does it say that Adam and Eve were born again? and Again, where does the bible say that a day isn't a day, but hundreds to thousands of years? One last thing, they didn't "surely die" then because they live on spiritually, or is it strictly a physical death where they died some 330,000 or so days after they were supposed to "die that day"?

I need more to go on for this "one day is a thousand years", or whatever idea you're proposing... it isn't making sense.

46AND2 said:

My point was that silence from historians, either pro or con, is not evidence either way. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

I meant to show that there is silence on both sides of the argument which is somewhat curious, but really not entirely surprising.

Just as you can find silence from potential critics, I can find silence from potential supporters (and local, too). Just as you can find reasons to dismiss the silence of my historians, I can find reason to dismiss the silence of yours. Because there are MANY explanations for the silence. Because it JUST ISN'T GOOD EVIDENCE.

For another example, why is Matthew the only source for King Herod ordering the killing of infants? I have my suspicions that Matthew fabricated the story, but I would not use the silence from all other authors as support, because I think it is a bad argument. Not because I think that Christian's rebuttals to this problem are good, but because the argument itself is inherently bad.

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Just so we are clear, here again were my original comments on this subject.

Maybe I wasn't real clear here myself. I was speaking about the notion that Jesus never even existed at all and the whole thing was made up. I was just pointing out that the sheer number of copies of the Gospels made it impossible to have been made up past the first century (if it were made up). And my point was that if it had been made up during the first century those who lived in the area would have known it was made up. Think about it friend. They were watching fellow country men being thrown to the lions and burned alive for converting to Christianity... something that those there would have first hand knowledge never happened. Not only that, to the Jews this would have been blasphemy. Because the Jews were waiting for their Holy Messiah the claim He had came and they missed Him would have been outrageous to them, specially if the movement was growing. On top of that, just the claims themselves would have been causing a stir. Suppose someone started saying that the government had executed a great religious leader in 1972 named Akbar who was going all over the country healing the sick, raising the dead in the name of Allah. We know that no such person ever lived. Now your going to tell me that there wouldn't be anyone say or record anything to survive into the future that would say so? So I am sorry friend, but when it comes to Jesus the silence of those opposed is deafeningly clear that its because the basics of the stories were undeniably true.

Regarding the death of the infants in "Hicksvill" Bethlehem of Israel... we are talking about a time in which the Romans were in power and their treatment of the Jews was not at all unlike the Nazi Germans treatment of the Jews during WW2. If a Nazi commander had ordered the death of a some Jewish babies in Arnis Germany (small town) during this time, compared to all the other killings going on, I doubt it would have really been a headline event. So I am not at all surprised about the silence in this case. Where else in history can we look beside the writings of Moses to hear of the killings of the Hebrew (Jewish) boys in Egypt?

Bugeyedcreepy said:

so Adam and Eve weren't experiencing days? All of Genesis references to Days are in the singular 24 hour version of Day or Days (3:8, 3:14, 3:17, etc), so how do you get these thousand-year-days? There doesn't seem to be any biblical support for it.

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Adam and Eve were made to live forever. When Adam sinned they became flesh and subject to death. They lived for years and had Cain and Abel and both boys grew into adults and Cain killed Abel. Gen 4:8 Eve was pregnant with Seth Gen 4:25 when Adam and Eve were both "created" by God the Trinity Gen 5:2 or born again Spiritually and Eternally. Adam lived for 930 years AFTER he was born again, and then died. Gen 5:5

*** Where in the bible does it say that Adam and Eve were born again? Gen 5:1-2 and Again, where does the bible say that a day isn't a day, but hundreds to thousands of years? Today remains the 6th Day. One last thing, they didn't "surely die" then because they live on spiritually, or is it strictly a physical death where they died some 330,000 or so days after they were supposed to "die that day"? They left this Earth which is to die.

I need more to go on for this "one day is a thousand years", or whatever idea you're proposing... it isn't making sense.

That's because I have NEVER posted such tripe. It was you who posted that. A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day means that God does not have the same thinking as man about how long a Day is. The best example is that the beginning of today was when Jesus/Lord God made the beasts of the field and birds which Adam named. Gen 2:19 God's Truth is the Truth in every way.

Aman777 said:

Adam and Eve were made to live forever. When Adam sinned they became flesh and subject to death. They lived for years and had Cain and Abel and both boys grew into adults and Cain killed Abel. Gen 4:8 Eve was pregnant with Seth Gen 4:25 when Adam and Eve were both "created" by God the Trinity Gen 5:2 or born again Spiritually and Eternally. Adam lived for 930 years AFTER he was born again, and then died. Gen 5:5

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Right, so they didn't "surely die"then, because they live on in heaven, right?

Aman777 said:

*** Where in the bible does it say that Adam and Eve were born again? Gen 5:1-2

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I don't see it - Genesis 5 is just delivering the generations of Adam, and isn't delivering proclamations - it also stated that God "Created" them (Adam and Eve), blessed them on that same Day, then they lived 130 years before Seth, then talks about "Days" of Adam where he lived out - not DAY, but Days! Same for Enoc and his "Days" (NOT A DAY!) of living, etc. This isn't compelling and the Bible doesn't back you up on this. What version do you use, so I'm referencing the same one you are? Can you explain why the Bible uses days as in 24 hour time periods while you use Days as in .... well, whatever?

Aman777 said:

and Again, where does the bible say that a day isn't a day, but hundreds to thousands of years? Today remains the 6th Day.

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Yes, yes, you've said that already - How long is this "Day"? Where does the Bible make reference to your interpreted version of this "Day"?

Aman777 said:

One last thing, they didn't "surely die" then because they live on spiritually, or is it strictly a physical death where they died some 330,000 or so days after they were supposed to "die that day"? They left this Earth which is to die.

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so long as your proposition of the 6th "day" covering some period of mysterious time that isn't a "day" that includes Adam's entire life. So to repeat, "I need more to go on for this "one day is a thousand years", or whatever idea you're proposing... it isn't making sense." - Where in the Bible is the reference to a "day" lasting long enough to cover the life of Adam, and why does the Bible talk about God resting on the 7th Day in the past sense if he isn't there yet?

Aman777 said:

That's because I have NEVER posted such tripe. It was you who posted that. A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day means that God does not have the same thinking as man about how long a Day is. The best example is that the beginning of today was when Jesus/Lord God made the beasts of the field and birds which Adam named. Gen 2:19 God's Truth is the Truth in every way.

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Sure, I'm hazarding a guess because as mentioned, a day means a day to me as I read it in the Bible, so how long is a day in your view, and how did God rest on the 7th Day if it hasn't come yet? I think you're making it even more confusing rather than making it more understandable...

Bugeyedcreepy said:

So, they didn't "surely die" then, and the serpent was correct? They certainly didn't die physically on the day as the Bible predicted on eating the fruit... Also, where does the Bible say that Adam and Eve should expect a saviour to be born?

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No friend I said that they did "surely die" that day. They became separated from God. Left unresolved they would have spent eternity separated from God in hell. As will everyone who is not reconciled back to God through the One who was to come.

Bugeyedcreepy said:

Right, so they didn't "surely die"then, because they live on in heaven, right?

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No, they died just as you will die and just as I will die, when we leave this world. Today, they are with Jesus and will return to how they were BEFORE they sinned, surrounded by a Shekinah Glory or Brightness, like Jesus.

Bugeyedcreepy said:

I don't see it - Genesis 5 is just delivering the generations of Adam, and isn't delivering proclamations - it also stated that God "Created" them (Adam and Eve), blessed them on that same Day, then they lived 130 years before Seth, then talks about "Days" of Adam where he lived out - not DAY, but Days! Same for Enoc and his "Days" (NOT A DAY!) of living, etc. This isn't compelling and the Bible doesn't back you up on this. What version do you use, so I'm referencing the same one you are? Can you explain why the Bible uses days as in 24 hour time periods while you use Days as in .... well, whatever?

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Sure. The Hebrew word for Days is the word Yowm, which means a period of time. It's used in the KJV for a 12 hour period of time, a 24 hour period of time, a lifetime and forever. The 7th Day has NO morning and NO evening because it is Eternity and where God rests on the 7th Day AFTER His creation is made perfect. Until then, God continues to "create" mankind in Christ Spiritually. Gen 1:27 Gen 5:1-2 and John 14:16 Here is the difference:

Lord God/Jesus made Adam from the dust of the ground on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-7
God/The Trinity created Adam Spiritually in Christ on the 6th Day. Gen 5:1-2 God continues to create Adam/mankind Spiritually today for we live at the end of the present 6th Day or Age in the Creation of the perfect Heaven.

Lord God/Jesus made the common ancestors and His creations are temporary and subject to death. God the Trinity (Elohim) always creates Eternally. That is WHY Humans (descendants of Adam) MUST be born again Spiritually or born Eternally by the Trinity in order to enter Heaven.

Bugeyedcreepy said:

Yes, yes, you've said that already - How long is this "Day"? Where does the Bible make reference to your interpreted version of this "Day"?

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Since the Big Bang was 13.8 Billion years ago, in man's time, and it was made at the end of the 3rd Day Gen 2:4, the first 3 Days/Ages were some 4.5 Billion years each. This means that the morning of the FIRST Day was some 9 Billion years BEFORE the Big Bang or some 23 Billion years ago, in man's time. The length of time can vary since a Day is the time period it takes God to make perfect any of His works. The entire Creation is made perfect at the end of the present 6th Day.

Bugeyedcreepy said:

so long as your proposition of the 6th "day" covering some period of mysterious time that isn't a "day" that includes Adam's entire life. So to repeat, "I need more to go on for this "one day is a thousand years", or whatever idea you're proposing... it isn't making sense." - Where in the Bible is the reference to a "day" lasting long enough to cover the life of Adam, and why does the Bible talk about God resting on the 7th Day in the past sense if he isn't there yet?

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We live TODAY at Genesis 1:27 since God is STILL creating Adam/mankind in His Image or in Christ Spiritually. He will continue to do this until His perfect Heaven is filled with it's "host", which includes the last Christian to be created eternally, a FUTURE event. Genesis 2:1 states this:

Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, (Heb-brought to perfection) and ALL the host of them.

Genesis 1:28-31 is prophecy of events which happen after Jesus comes at Armageddon.

Bugeyedcreepy said:

Sure, I'm hazarding a guess because as mentioned, a day means a day to me as I read it in the Bible, so how long is a day in your view, and how did God rest on the 7th Day if it hasn't come yet? I think you're making it even more confusing rather than making it more understandable...

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God's is STILL working hitherto (Greek-up to the present time) according to Jesus:

Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

God rests (ceases to create) when His creation is made perfect at the end of the present 6th Day/Age, which began when Jesus made creatures and Adam named them. Gen 2:19 Until then, it's not too late to be born again Spiritually in Christ but the time is near for Christ's return, so don't wait until tomorrow when it's too late. God Bless you

BradB said:

I've already addressed this, I don't see the value in doing so again.

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Ha! Once again you ignore the verses In genesis 2 that say animals were made after humans.

AV1611VET said:

Because he isn't?

Did Macrobius fabricate it too?

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No. He lived hundreds of years later and retold Matthew's fabrication.

BradB said:

I see well I'll play the same game. Here are my responses to your responses that I have done elsewhere too.

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I wasn't playing a game. I was mentioning that I defended my points multiple times against an animated crowd. And though outnumbered, I think my Points won out.

Making your points when riding an animal is not the same thing as winning against animated opponents.

And no, I don't have time to repeat everything over again for each new person.

Besides, you are completely off topic.

I have been thinking about going back to the apologetics forum and doing an update there of the argument that Jesus likely was not historical. Maybe we can meet there some time.

AV1611VET said:

Would this be the Matthew that was martyred for refusing to change it?

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Matthew's martydom was ambiguous at best. Some sources even say he died a natural death.

Regardless, a refusal to change his account of the massacre of the innocents was most certainly not the reason he was killed.

doubtingmerle said:

Ha! Once again you ignore the verses In genesis 2 that say animals were made after humans.

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Amen. It's Genesis 2:19 where Jesus/Lord God makes the beasts of the field and bird common ancestors and Adam names them.

AV1611VET said:

I'm surprised you guys give him that much credit, to be honest.

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Why? I don't doubt he actually believed--martyrdom is not a particularly convincing argument for me. How strongly someone believes something is not indicative of truth. Faith, in fact, is an inherently poor mechanism for finding truth.

And I've looked to see what historical scholars have found on the topic, which is conflicting reports. It's uncertain how, or even where, he died.

AV1611VET said:

I'm surprised you guys give him that much credit, to be honest.

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Oh yeah, and the fact that Matthew didn't write the gospel of Matthew.

AV1611VET said:

Levi wrote it.

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Cute.

Aman777 said:

Amen. It's Genesis 2:19 where Jesus/Lord God makes the beasts of the field and bird common ancestors and Adam names them.

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Ah, and you agree that genesis 2 says that animals were made after humans. It's obvious to me.