Taking Question on the Creation and/or the Flood

[Nathan Poe]

I doubt the Deccan Traps existed in Genesis 1.

What you doubt and what you can explain seem to be drifting further apart by the second.

 

[Tomk80]

The Bible says "it repented the Lord":

[bible]Genesis 6:6[/bible]

Since "repent" means to do a 180, the point is that mans' ways (and I'm going to choose this next word carefully) forced* God to take action.

*For lack of a better term.

Not quite omniscient, the God of Genesis 6:6.

 

[AV1611VET]

I am making this post based upon the scientific rationalization of my biology, geology, and physics professors.

Very well --- and I'll do my best to answer from a Biblical perspective.

1)I don't believe the flood could have been world-wide...

Then why was Noah aboard the Ark for over a year? And why did birds board the Ark?

...for we would have seen massive amounts of geological evidence world-wide of global precipitation/evaporation. We would have witnessed more salt desposits along every corner of the known globe if it were a global flood.

Suppose God removed them for safety and sanitary reasons?

2) every animal known to mankind could not have gotten onto that boat.

I agree --- with one exception --- it wasn't a "boat" --- it was an "ark" --- a containment vessel of some kind. Definately not a boat, or a ship.

The dimensions the Bible includes( the size of roughly over a football field, and no deeper than a few stories high) restricts one to the idea that there was simply not enough room on such a boat for EVERY known animal in the world to fit.

I'll agree with this --- but every known animal didn't board the Ark --- only their prototypes ("kinds" --- as the Bible calls them).

3. not every animal on earth could have migrated(and survived) from its indigenous origins all the way to the middle east.

1. Again, not every species boarded the Ark.
2. The earth at the time was one continent --- so there was access to the Ark from every point.

A Penguin on the southern tip of south america could not have walked all the way up south america to the mideast(through the pampas, the andes mountains, the deserts of mexico, the rockies, canada, and all the way across the alleutian landbridge in alaska, across russia, down through the himilayas and across the deserts of arabia) without dying. A penguin just isn't fit for that long kind of migration. in all actuality, even if it could survive those harsh environments, it'd die from old age.

Penguins didn't exist then --- neither did the polar regions. The entire earth was one tropical paradise.

4. an animal who lived in australia COULD NOT have made it to the mid east because animals don't know how to make and sail boats.

Technically, Australia didn't exist then --- technically though, it did.

Explain to me this>> did Noh have kangaroos on his ark?

In my opinion, he did not. If you were to witness the boarding of the Ark by the animals, I surmise that you would not have recognized half of them.

IF so, how did they get there?

God told Noah to build the Ark --- He Himself handled the boarding of it by the animals.

Explain using rational and logical terms how a kangaroo, duck billed platypus, wallabees, cassowaries and echidnas could EVER have gotten over to the mid east on their own?

Assuming they even existed then --- it would have been easy; seeing as they had 120 years to go from Point A to Point B, with no natural encumberances.

they couldn't.

that is why the flood WAS NOT A WORLD WIDE FLOOD. It was a regional flood, and if people keep telling folks that it was world-wide, theyre pretty much lying.

I think I can come up with another explanation: God did it.

 

[AV1611VET]

That answers the Who, but doesn't explain the How, the When or the Why.

The How, the When or the Why is God's job to explain; and He does very well via Genesis 1 and Genesis 6-9.

However, there are two caveats to keep in mind:

[bible]Deuteronomy 29:29[/bible][bible]Ecclesiastes 3:11[/bible]

I really hope that isn't your answer to everything.

It's actually my signature. I don't really care for it, as it's too simplistic. Nevertheless, it's accurate.

 

[Pesto]

So how old do you think the fossil record is and how did it form?
What layers in the earth's geology were deposited by the flood and which are preflood and post flood?

If the flood was 4,500 years ago how is it that so many lakes have varves (alternating annual layers) that go back more than 10,000 years?

Using Egypt and Mesopotamia as examples fit each of these eras into a Biblical Framework
Paleolithic
Neolithic
Early Bronze Age

That's all for now.

God did it.

I really hope that isn't your answer to everything.

It's actually my signature. I don't really care for it, as it's too simplistic.

Then answer Frumious Bandersnatch's questions.

 

[AV1611VET]

If the global flood happened, then where did the water come from to cause the flood and where did the water go to after the flood?

The water came from two major sources:

1. A water canopy surrounding the Earth - (Genesis 1:6-7).
2. Subterranean sources - (Genesis 7:11).

[bible]Genesis 1:6-7[/bible][bible]Genesis 7:11[/bible]

Also, why did God cause a flood if it wasn't necessary?

It was necessary:

• Some of the fallen angels had created a race of mutants on the earth.
• All flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth.
• The Flood ended the dispensation of Conscious - (that's an answer for you dispensationalists out there - like me).

Why didn't he just individually smite everyone except Noah's family? Wasn't the destruction caused by the flood unnecessary?

Had He done it that way, He couldn't have used it later in the New Testament as a warning that in the end of the dispensation that you and I are currently living in (Grace), we will return to the days of Noah.

[bible]Matthew 24:37[/bible]

 

[Nathan Poe]

Very well --- and I'll do my best to answer from a Biblical perspective.



Then why was Noah aboard the Ark for over a year? And why did birds board the Ark?

because it makes the story more exciting.

Suppose God removed them for safety and sanitary reasons?

Suppose God removed them because His wife always makes Him take out the trash on Thursdays?

You said you had Biblical explanations; not guesswork.

I agree --- with one exception --- it wasn't a "boat" --- it was an "ark" --- a containment vessel of some kind. Definately not a boat, or a ship.

It was supposed to float (never mind that it never would have) -- why argue semantics?

I'll agree with this --- but every known animal didn't board the Ark --- only their prototypes ("kinds" --- as the Bible calls them).

Careful, AV -- the last thing you want to do as a YEC is offer up a solid definiton of "Kind." We'll hold you to it, and tyou'll have to change it eventually.

Penguins didn't exist then --- neither did the polar regions. The entire earth was one tropical paradise.

AV, I try to take your arguments seriously -- I know it rarely appears so, but I do -- but this is nonsense.

Technically, Australia didn't exist then --- technically though, it did.

It did but it didn't -- technically speaking.

Huh?

In my opinion, he did not. If you were to witness the boarding of the Ark by the animals, I surmise that you would not have recognized half of them.

Again, AV -- you said you had a Biblical argument. Unless you're writing yourself into Scripture, your "surmises" don't count.

Assuming they even existed then --- it would have been easy; seeing as they had 120 years to go from Point A to Point B, with no natural encumberances.

Assuming they didn't exsit -- where did they come from?

I think I can come up with another explanation: God did it.

Excuses are not explanations, AV.

 

[Loudmouth]

Here's my question. What evidence, if found, would falsify a young earth, special creation, or a world wide flood. Please provide potential falsifications for each one.

 

[AV1611VET]

I have not read this thread But i would like some questions answered.

1 How big was the arc?
2 how long did it take to build
3 how many animals were their on the arc?
4 how long did it take to collect the animals?
5 how could the animals that Noah collected live long enough for Noah to collect all the *other* animals?
6 were did all the food from the voyage come from?
7 was Noah rich or poor?
8 how much time did Noah have to do all this
9 were their dinos on the arc?
10 how did the genetic purity of humans and animals survive, and why has science not detected our shallow dna pools. wouldn't we all look alike (see cheetah)?
11 why did Noah not save unicorns and dragons and all the other magical creatures?
12 how did we developed such rich cultures in such a short amount of time? if god gave us different cultures through the tower of bable (and not just different speech), how could be upset with Buddhists and Hindu and Muslims for thinking differently, after all religion is mostly based on geography and culture.
13 how did our skin colors change (not just black and white)?
14 were did the excess water come from?
15 were did the water go afterwards?
16 how did the fresh water animals live when all the rivers and streams were covered in salt water. The way I see it, ether all the salt water fish died or all the fresh water fish died.
17 how did all the trees survive the flood?
18 how did animals migrate to remote islands?
19 why do some places exist that clearly show no signs of erosion (as mentioned earlier in this thread)
20 how did Noah rescue the termites?

I have less than 7 minutes left, MoonLancer; so, God willing, I'll pick up here tomorrow.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Here's my question. What evidence, if found, would falsify a young earth, special creation, or a world wide flood. Please provide potential falsifications for each one.

No good, Loudmouth -- AV's arguing from a Biblical perspective, not a scientific one. He's not looking for potential falsifications, because it's inconceivable that his Biblical perspective could be wrong.

 

[Loudmouth]

No good, Loudmouth -- AV's arguing from a Biblical perspective, not a scientific one. He's not looking for potential falsifications, because it's inconceivable that his Biblical perspective could be wrong.

I want to hear that from AV. If he admits to what you claim, then AV's argument is nothing more than an Omphalos argument.

 

[TheOutsider]

I want to hear that from AV. If he admits to what you claim, then AV's argument is nothing more than an Omphalos argument.

I had actually never heard of Omphalos until now. I'm assuming that it means "In cases where reality is different from the Bible, go with the Bible." That seems like just a bunch of hand-waving to me. It makes God out to be either a liar or a trickster. How could anyone truly believe that?

 

[Tomk80]

I had actually never heard of Omphalos until now. I'm assuming that it means "In cases where reality is different from the Bible, go with the Bible." That seems like just a bunch of hand-waving to me. It makes God out to be either a liar or a trickster. How could anyone truly believe that?

Insanity goes a long way.

 

[Galle]

That seems like just a bunch of hand-waving to me. It makes God out to be either a liar or a trickster. How could anyone truly believe that?

But if horses or oxen or lions had hands
or could inscribe with their hands and accomplish such works as men,
horses would inscribe the figures of the gods as similar to horses,
and the oxen as similar to oxen,
and they would make the bodies
of the sort which each of them had.
​

Xenophanes of Colophon
​

 

[Tinker Grey]

I had actually never heard of Omphalos until now. I'm assuming that it means "In cases where reality is different from the Bible, go with the Bible." That seems like just a bunch of hand-waving to me. It makes God out to be either a liar or a trickster. How could anyone truly believe that?

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_(theology)

Omphalos means navel. The use of this word stems from the question: Did Adam have a belly-button?

In short, to say someone is using a Omphalogical argument is to say that they are essentially arguing that God created the universe with age and history.

While AV has made similar claims to Omphalos, I'd say "if it contradicts the Bible, it is wrong" is a different argument.

 

[MoonLancer]

How could his creation be called perfect in the first place, if it could fall? How could a created human be called perfect, if it couldn't fully grasp the consequences of it's actions and hence enable the fall?

Well my answer is, god was flawed or never existed. some may not agree with me.

 

[TheOutsider]

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_(theology)

Omphalos means navel. The use of this word stems from the question: Did Adam have a belly-button?

In short, to say someone is using a Omphalogical argument is to say that they are essentially arguing that God created the universe with age and history.

While AV has made similar claims to Omphalos, I'd say "if it contradicts the Bible, it is wrong" is a different argument.

Sorry, I guess I oversimplified. So Omphalos is Last Tuesdayism with 6000 years instead of six days?

 

[Bakin]

Do you have any questions pertaining to either Genesis 1 or Genesis 6-9?

Those two areas are my forte.

Yes, I did ask some questions. For some reason, you skipped them and went straight to my afterthoughts.

And if five chapters in a book of the Bible are your forte, you should probably go get a community college degree in something.

I'll add that I love you're "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality, and that you actual use it to answer people who ask you questions in a thread which you started for them to ask you questions in!

 

[Phred]

I'll take questions on the Creation and/or the Flood, and do my best to answer them from a Biblical perspective.

I major in both areas.

That's sad and pathetic. You "major" in fairy tales and magic. What you can't answer you'll say was done by magical means we can't fathom. No need to ask you anything as you can't answer anything. Saying "God did it" is not an answer as you don't know HOW God did it.

I know you think David Copperfield sawed the woman in half. That tells me nothing... not even if he really did it.

Just pathetic.

 

[Loudmouth]

Sorry, I guess I oversimplified. So Omphalos is Last Tuesdayism with 6000 years instead of six days?

Last Tuesdayism is a heresy. We accept Last Thursdayism around here.

But yes, it is one and the same. AV claims that God embedded 4.5 billion years of age into the Earth and somehow thinks this is different from 4.5 billion years of history. We have gone around in circles with this one, but it still comes down to the same thing. No potential observation would ever make AV doubt that the Earth is 6,000 years old and that there was a recent global flood (which God also hid the evidence of). This means that an appearance of history also fits into what is expected if God created the Earth 6,000 years ago, strangely enough.