Taking it out of context?

[Logicalthinker]

Quote:
The Bible is simply a book written by men. It searches for nothing. God is the one who checks the heart and the intention of every man to see if they are loving or not.

one must have faith in God to believe that the bible is the word of God. That is what the bible says.
How can a person deny the bible and call themselves Christian. That is a hypocrite. God says it is his words. And yet you deny him.

unbelievable. As soon as a Christian gets backed into a corner that is what they pull out of their hat. They discredit God Almighty himself. Shameful and blasphemous.

The bible is the inspired word of God. To think it is not shows a real flaw in character and faith.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God is Almighty. He would not allow his word to be destroyed.
It is inspired from Jehovah and man wrote it down for him.

 

[elman]

=Logicalthinker;35222100]one must have faith in God to believe that the bible is the word of God. That is what the bible says.

Of course one must have faith in God to believe the Bible is the word of God. It is possible however to believe in God and not believe the Bible is the word of God.

How can a person deny the bible and call themselves Christian. That is a hypocrite. God says it is his words. And yet you deny him.

There were Christians before the Bible existed. Obviously a person can be a Christian without belileving in the Bible being the word of God. It is not being a hypocrite to question man made things and the Bible is written by men, not God and it was decided by men which books would be in it and which would not and that was not God doing that either. God does not say the Bible is His word. Even the Bible says the word of God is Jesus.

unbelievable. As soon as a Christian gets backed into a corner that is what they pull out of their hat. They discredit God Almighty himself. Shameful and blasphemous.

I don't discredit God. I discredit a book written by men about God in that it has errors. Yes it is the greatest book ever written and yes it has divine truth in it about God, but it also has errors.

The bible is the inspired word of God. To think it is not shows a real flaw in character and faith.

That is your opinion. My opinion is that we as Christians should always question what men tell us, wheather it is one man or a group of men. Nothing perfect comes from men and anything touched by me has imperfections. The Bible was written by men, assembled by me, printed by men, interpreted by men, ---too much connection to imperfect men to be perfect.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The KIng James version of the Bible did not go forth from the mouth of God. Some of the things in the book talk about the word of God which is Jesus and Jesus is the word of God.

God is Almighty. He would not allow his word to be destroyed.

He did allow His word to be destroyed and then resurrected Him.

It is inspired from Jehovah and man wrote it down for him.

Some of it is inspired from God and man wrote it down, often getting it garbled somewhat in the process. God is loving and unchanging and nerver lies. Anything that says different that that is in error.

 

[Ratiocination]

Is Jesus in Heaven sitting beside His father on His throne? Is God physical? Is His throne physical? Is Jesus still physical? What does the flesh of Jesus have to do with you and I being permitted to live on this planet?

God’s not physical, his throne is not physical, Jesus is no longer physical.

If Jesus hadn’t given up that flesh completely, then the sacrifice of the great sacrificial lamb would be unacceptable to God. Our sins would not be covered, and we would be living a pointless existence.

He likes people around Him He can love and who can respond to His love. Why do you think He created us?

Even if most of those people are inherently wicked?
Jehovah created man as an expression of his love, what kind of expression would that be if he left the human race to sin and death.
Check Genesis 1:27

Because it is not as important as the spiritual and part of the defintion of physical is it is subject to time.

Being subject to time doesn’t mean that it will pass away, that’s a very strange statement to make, do you not think that almighty God can inject life in to all of his creation, including the physical.
Check Matthew 5:5

Just because He can do something does not mean it is a good idea. He can be unloving to us but it is not a good idea.

God can’t be unloving
Check Psalm 92:15

Not if you are not humble enough to accept correction when shown clear scriptural guidance.

Did God tell you this directly?

Yep,
Check Matthew 23:33

The Bible is simply a book written by men. It searches for nothing. God is the one who checks the heart and the intention of every man to see if they are loving or not.

Who authored the book?

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
Is Jesus in Heaven sitting beside His father on His throne? Is God physical? Is His throne physical? Is Jesus still physical? What does the flesh of Jesus have to do with you and I being permitted to live on this planet?

God’s not physical, his throne is not physical, Jesus is no longer physical.

We agree

If Jesus hadn’t given up that flesh completely, then the sacrifice of the great sacrificial lamb would be unacceptable to God. Our sins would not be covered, and we would be living a pointless existence.

I think part of the sacrifice was coming to live in the flesh, not just dying in the flesh.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
He likes people around Him He can love and who can respond to His love. Why do you think He created us?

Even if most of those people are inherently wicked?
Jehovah created man as an expression of his love, what kind of expression would that be if he left the human race to sin and death.
Check Genesis 1:27

Nobody is inherently wicked. We are wicked because we chose to be wicked. He did not leave the human race to sin and death. He created us with the ability to be loving or unloving. If we chose unloving we face the destiny of being mortal, death and the grave. If we choose loving we have the hope of life eternal with Him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
Because it is not as important as the spiritual and part of the defintion of physical is it is subject to time.

Being subject to time doesn’t mean that it will pass away, that’s a very strange statement to make, do you not think that almighty God can inject life in to all of his creation, including the physical.

He can do anything He wishes but He has indicated there is a beginning and an end to time and heaven and earth shall pass away but His word will not pass away. Do you think He is talking about a book when He said that?

Check Matthew 5:5

1 Pet 3:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
Just because He can do something does not mean it is a good idea. He can be unloving to us but it is not a good idea.

God can’t be unloving
Check Psalm 92:15

God can do anything He wants, but He is trustworth and He will not be unloving. Being loving means He is able to chose to be unloving but chooses to be loving instead. That is why there is no wickedness in Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat
Not if you are not humble enough to accept correction when shown clear scriptural guidance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
Did God tell you this directly?

Yep,
Check Matthew 23:33

I don't see the word scripture there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
The Bible is simply a book written by men. It searches for nothing. God is the one who checks the heart and the intention of every man to see if they are loving or not.

Who authored the book?

Many different people. In some cases we don't know who authored it or when. There is some indication that Nebecaneezer the ruler of Peria wrote one of the chapters in the book of Daniel.

 

[Logicalthinker]

Sorry elman. I no longer will discuss scripture with someone that denies scripture. It makes it an easy escape Goat for some one.

No matter what scripture I show you. You have already told me you don't think it to be the word of God. You have discredited God and any of the scriptures shown to you as being maybe they're real or this one is man made. No one can learn or teach scripture if they don't think it is real. It would be a waist of time to continue our discussion.

God is Almighty, and you don't think he has the power to make his word true.

So Jesus came out of God's mouth.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This is not talking about Jesus in this verse. It is talking about the words that God spoke from his mouth.

How about this verse

Matthew 24:35-36 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

They don't pass away because they are written down. Oh, thats right, it doesn't matter. God does not have the power to protect his words I guess. He must not be as Almighty as he claims than. If that's what you want to believe.

I believe that God is Almighty and if he wanted the truths in the bible to stay in the bible. Than they're in the bible.

 

[Ratiocination]

I think part of the sacrifice was coming to live in the flesh, not just dying in the flesh.

It matters not what you think but what is truth!
You've cancelled out our portal to the truth so no one knows or can formulate an opinion!

Nobody is inherently wicked. We are wicked because we chose to be wicked. He did not leave the human race to sin and death. He created us with the ability to be loving or unloving. If we chose unloving we face the destiny of being mortal, death and the grave. If we choose loving we have the hope of life eternal with Him.

Well no one will ever know! we no longer have a trusted text to confer to.

He can do anything He wishes but He has indicated there is a beginning and an end to time and heaven and earth shall pass away but His word will not pass away. Do you think He is talking about a book when He said that?

indicated where? Are you looking to that errant bible thingy that is so full of errors???

1 Pet 3:10

perhaps this is one of those errent verses that you speak of!

God can do anything He wants, but He is trustworth and He will not be unloving. Being loving means He is able to chose to be unloving but chooses to be loving instead. That is why there is no wickedness in Him.

R U sure?

Many different people. In some cases we don't know who authored it or when. There is some indication that Nebecaneezer the ruler of Peria wrote one of the chapters in the book of Daniel.

Ok, let's throw our bibles into the fire!

I've seen and participated in some mean debates in my time but never have i come across a professed christian willing to disregard the bible just to save face! This is a new one on me, well done for being so brave!

This really is unorthodox theology!!!

 

[Rev Wayne]

Being a Reverend you probably have had more experience with doctrine. But I grew up in a small town of 2000 people. I honestly had never heard of the resurrection until I was in my 20's My baptist minister always taught that people die and instantly goes to Heaven or Hell. Never talked about a resurrection of the dead.

Well, your comment certainly did not give that impression:

The resurrection. I was born a Catholic/Baptist. My mother was Catholic and my father was a Baptist. I have been to both churches a lot, Plus others (presbyterian, Nazarene, protestants, and Methodists.) But mainly the first two. None of these churches I have been to in my 33 years of life. I have never heard of the Resurrection mentioned in these churches. Never. Not even a little.

So first it was all sorts of churches over 33 years of life, and now when questioned further, it’s just the one Baptist minister, and up into your 20’s? Why does the story take on a different tack from one page to the next?

I believe he was talking about the same goal. We can see many times where Jesus refers to people having the same goal as one.

So then, when he said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father,” what He was really saying was, “If you have seen my goal, you have seen the Father’s goal?” That hardly seems likely.

This is God saying that his word will go out from him. What is the word? (Jesus). It does not say that he himself will go out.

An irrelevant point, for what is the word that went out? “TO ME every knee will bow.” The same thing that is said of Jesus. By focusing on the first part of the verse and ignoring the last, you have not taken into consideration what the verse says at all. It clearly has Jehovah saying, “TO ME every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall take an oath,” the same thing that is said of Jesus in the NT.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

These two verses are as plain as the nose on someones face. I don't have to try to make it say something that it doesn't. No one has ever seen God. If Jesus was God that would make these verses a lie. That would make John a liar. I don't think John is a liar.

How so? If Jesus is God, He is not a mere man, which is what the verse speaks of. Besides, If Jesus is God, then your objection is saying that it’s a contradiction for God to see God, which makes no sense at all. (And don't blame me for it, I'm simply applying the logic you use in your objections)

Ephesians 4:4-7 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

This is another verse that show separation. Notice it does not say the Holy ghost anywhere. So where is the third head? There are no verses that show the holy ghost as an individual talking. It is Gods influence.

How did you miss “one body, and one SPIRIT?” And after all this running around that you did, did you really think I would forget that the starting point at which you did this circumlocution was Isaiah 9:6, where Jesus is called the “everlasting Father?” You still haven’t shown anything of any substance to counter the fact that the Son is called by the same appellations as are common to the Father. Another one comes to mind as well:

Rev. 1:8---“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev. 1:11---“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last”
Rev. 1:17-18---“I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

These are all said by Jesus Christ.

Isa. 41:4---“I, the Lord, am the First; and with the last I am He.”
Isa. 44:6---“I am the First and I am the Last; beside me there is no God.”
Isa. 48:12---“I am the First; I am also the Last.”

These are all said by Jehovah. There’s more:

Isa. 43:11---“I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Savior.”
Hosea 13:4---“I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but me; for beside me there is no Savior.”

These are said by Jehovah. They state that there is no Savior but God.

John 8:24---“If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18---“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, for he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

These are said by Jesus. They state that He alone is Savior.

Plus we can see in John 1:1 where Jesus was referred in this way. Lowercase god. Meaning divine. It still does not make him Jehovah.

But the JW’s, of course, have their own version of this verse in the NWT, which is how they get around what it truly says.

1 Tomothy 1:2-3 2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. 3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

Notice people are not to teach other doctrines. Only the doctrine of Christ. Notice the separation of the two again. Plus still no holy ghost.

I can’t believe this. Are you suggesting that by “no other doctrine" in verse 3, Paul was referring to what he had just said in verse 2?? There are two obvious problems with that, automatically: (1) Verse 2 is not a doctrinal statement at all, it is a formal greeting. You can’t formulate a rejection of Trinitarian doctrine with a freewheeling analysis of a verse of greeting; and (2) Your interpretation violates the very spirit of this thread, because you have incorrectly removed Paul’s introductory phrase of verse 3 from its true context which follows in vv. 3 and 4, about standing against attempts of others to teach fables and genealogies.

Jesus is the divine Son of God, I never said he wasn't. But he is not God. That does not make a paradox. The paradox would be that Jesus is his own father and that he lied to us by saying he was his own son.

Nobody said “Jesus is His own Father.” There is the separation of personalities within the Godhead, but not a separation of essence. Jesus is no less God for being the Son of God, but He is distinctly the Son of God, and yet is God. The same pronouncements are made in many places about Jesus as are made about God, as has been shown. The same is true of the Holy Spirit, He is referred to as the “Spirit of God,” and as the “Spirit of Christ.”

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This verse does not show that Jesus is God. It shows that God has exalted him. As his promise was. This verse clearly shows separation of the two. Jesus was given authority over heaven and Earth. Why would God exalt himself? He is already exalted. So how can he be Jesus if he has to exalt himself. That does not make any sense.

Jesus in His pre-incarnate existence was “in the form of God” and “equal with God.” Yet He chose to “take the form of a servant,” and being thus willing, “emptied Himself.” He surrendered temporarily the prerogatives and the “form” He had in co-existence with God, and came to be born upon the earth. The exaltation was a restoration of what He already had before, with the addition that now His name is exalted above all others.

And your objections are of the straw man variety. No one is saying God “exalted Himself,” He of course exalted God the Son, who is of the same essence though separate in personality. No one is saying “God is Jesus,” as per your objection, so “how can He be Jesus” is a challenge to something not even claimed. They are of the same divine essence, and so many things are said of them interchangeably. Jesus in the prediction in Isaiah 9:6 is called “everlasting Father.” That does not thereby “make Him the Father,” it just makes valid the use of Father with Him on account of His co-essence in God. God says “beside me there is no Savior.” That does not thereby make Him the one who endured death on the cross, as says Patripassianism, it simply means that He shares in the role of Savior because of His co-essence with the Son. The Holy Spirit is called both “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” because of His co-essence with both.

 

[Ratiocination]

Well, your comment certainly did not give that impression:


So first it was all sorts of churches over 33 years of life, and now when questioned further, it’s just the one Baptist minister, and up into your 20’s? Why does the story take on a different tack from one page to the next?



So then, when he said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father,” what He was really saying was, “If you have seen my goal, you have seen the Father’s goal?” That hardly seems likely.



An irrelevant point, for what is the word that went out? “TO ME every knee will bow.” The same thing that is said of Jesus. By focusing on the first part of the verse and ignoring the last, you have not taken into consideration what the verse says at all. It clearly has Jehovah saying, “TO ME every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall take an oath,” the same thing that is said of Jesus in the NT.


How so? If Jesus is God, He is not a mere man, which is what the verse speaks of. Besides, If Jesus is God, then your objection is saying that it’s a contradiction for God to see God, which makes no sense at all. (And don't blame me for it, I'm simply applying the logic you use in your objections)



How did you miss “one body, and one SPIRIT?” And after all this running around that you did, did you really think I would forget that the starting point at which you did this circumlocution was Isaiah 9:6, where Jesus is called the “everlasting Father?” You still haven’t shown anything of any substance to counter the fact that the Son is called by the same appellations as are common to the Father. Another one comes to mind as well:

Rev. 1:8---“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev. 1:11---“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last”
Rev. 1:17-18---“I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

These are all said by Jesus Christ.

Isa. 41:4---“I, the Lord, am the First; and with the last I am He.”
Isa. 44:6---“I am the First and I am the Last; beside me there is no God.”
Isa. 48:12---“I am the First; I am also the Last.”

These are all said by Jehovah. There’s more:

Isa. 43:11---“I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Savior.”
Hosea 13:4---“I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but me; for beside me there is no Savior.”

These are said by Jehovah. They state that there is no Savior but God.

John 8:24---“If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18---“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, for he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

These are said by Jesus. They state that He alone is Savior.



But the JW’s, of course, have their own version of this verse in the NWT, which is how they get around what it truly says.



I can’t believe this. Are you suggesting that by “no other doctrine" in verse 3, Paul was referring to what he had just said in verse 2?? There are two obvious problems with that, automatically: (1) Verse 2 is not a doctrinal statement at all, it is a formal greeting. You can’t formulate a rejection of Trinitarian doctrine with a freewheeling analysis of a verse of greeting; and (2) Your interpretation violates the very spirit of this thread, because you have incorrectly removed Paul’s introductory phrase of verse 3 from its true context which follows in vv. 3 and 4, about standing against attempts of others to teach fables and genealogies.


Nobody said “Jesus is His own Father.” There is the separation of personalities within the Godhead, but not a separation of essence. Jesus is no less God for being the Son of God, but He is distinctly the Son of God, and yet is God. The same pronouncements are made in many places about Jesus as are made about God, as has been shown. The same is true of the Holy Spirit, He is referred to as the “Spirit of God,” and as the “Spirit of Christ.”



Jesus in His pre-incarnate existence was “in the form of God” and “equal with God.” Yet He chose to “take the form of a servant,” and being thus willing, “emptied Himself.” He surrendered temporarily the prerogatives and the “form” He had in co-existence with God, and came to be born upon the earth. The exaltation was a restoration of what He already had before, with the addition that now His name is exalted above all others.

And your objections are of the straw man variety. No one is saying God “exalted Himself,” He of course exalted God the Son, who is of the same essence though separate in personality. No one is saying “God is Jesus,” as per your objection, so “how can He be Jesus” is a challenge to something not even claimed. They are of the same divine essence, and so many things are said of them interchangeably. Jesus in the prediction in Isaiah 9:6 is called “everlasting Father.” That does not thereby “make Him the Father,” it just makes valid the use of Father with Him on account of His co-essence in God. God says “beside me there is no Savior.” That does not thereby make Him the one who endured death on the cross, as says Patripassianism, it simply means that He shares in the role of Savior because of His co-essence with the Son. The Holy Spirit is called both “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” because of His co-essence with both.

Hi rev wayne, I'd like to know if you really believe that Jesus is the father in the trinity, you seem to use verses that suggest his is as a defence for your thinking, could you clarify exatly what you believe about the trinity?

 

[Ratiocination]

Jesus in the prediction in Isaiah 9:6 is called “everlasting Father.” That does not thereby “make Him the Father,” it just makes valid the use of Father with Him on account of His co-essence in God. God says “beside me there is no Savior.” That does not thereby make Him the one who endured death on the cross, as says Patripassianism, it simply means that He shares in the role of Savior because of His co-essence with the Son. The Holy Spirit is called both “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” because of His co-essence with both.

Sorry just read this part (i was jumping the gun as usual)
You seem to add a truck load of words to the Isaiah text, if you just read it it says that Jesus will be the "eternal father", it seems strange to use a text that doesn't word your argument as you wish, and then give it a meaning not expressed in the text. Sounds like a moot point to me!

 

[Logicalthinker]

So first it was all sorts of churches over 33 years of life, and now when questioned further, it’s just the one Baptist minister, and up into your 20’s? Why does the story take on a different tack from one page to the next?

Like I said the JW's told me about it. I still have not heard any other religions say any thing about it, until you said you teach it. That's the first other than JW's
I'm going to be 34 soon and most religions teach that as soon as you die off to heaven with you., "Don't worry Grandmas in heaven" What ever. That is a lie people tell their children all the time. The truth is she is sleeping until judgment day.

So then, when he said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father,” what He was really saying was, “If you have seen my goal, you have seen the Father’s goal?” That hardly seems likely.

Well if you see me you have seen my father. Does not make us one.

An irrelevant point, for what is the word that went out? “TO ME every knee will bow.” The same thing that is said of Jesus. By focusing on the first part of the verse and ignoring the last, you have not taken into consideration what the verse says at all. It clearly has Jehovah saying, “TO ME every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall take an oath,” the same thing that is said of Jesus in the NT.

That is right every knee will bow to both of them. Jesus is the King of Kings. He will be bowed to. Jehovah will be bowed to even by his son. So yes every knee will bow to them both. But not as a combined God Head.

How so? If Jesus is God, He is not a mere man, which is what the verse speaks of. Besides, If Jesus is God, then your objection is saying that it’s a contradiction for God to see God, which makes no sense at all. (And don't blame me for it, I'm simply applying the logic you use in your objections).

I was not talking about God seeing God. I was talking about all the humans that saw Jesus. That would mean they saw God. That would make John a liar.
Lets not get confused, Let's track my logic with man made doctrine. People call Mary, the mother of God. So therefore Jesus is God. Humans saw Jesus. Which means humans saw God. Which than makes John a liar.
I know he is not a liar. No man has ever seen God. Ever. Not even a little. Never. Not even once.
Like I said if a religion contradicts the bible it is a false religion.

How did you miss “one body, and one SPIRIT?” And after all this running around that you did, did you really think I would forget that the starting point at which you did this circumlocution was Isaiah 9:6, where Jesus is called the “everlasting Father?” You still haven’t shown anything of any substance to counter the fact that the Son is called by the same appellations as are common to the Father. Another one comes to mind as well.

I didn't. That is talking about man not Jesus, God, or the holy spirit.
Man has one body and spirit. I didn't think you would miss anything nor am I trying to mislead anyone. I just want people see false religion.

Rev. 1:8---“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev. 1:11---“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last”
Rev. 1:17-18---“I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

These are all said by Jesus Christ.

You got these verses from the apostate bible. The King James Bible. Which is fine, the truth is still in it. You just have to dig deeper.
Any ways if Jehovah's name was still in there where it belongs you would see that this is God Speaking not Jesus. Look up the Greek. and cross reference. You will be surprised. They took Gods name out only in the places that it would interfere with man made doctrine, But kept his name in other places in the bible. If it is good in some places it should have been good for all places. That is man's attempt to confuse who is talking so they can prove the man made doctrine of the trinity. They would rather save face than be wrong. We saw that same philosophy with the pedophile incident.

Where Jehovah was left in the King James Bible.
Exodus 6:3, Psalms 83:18, Isaiah 12:2, 26:4, Genesis 22:14, Exodus 17:15 and Judges 6:24.
Why not keep his name in the whole bible? Why take it out only in some places? If they did not like his name, they would have taken it out everywhere. Smells like a cover up.

Isa. 41:4---“I, the Lord, am the First; and with the last I am He.”
Isa. 44:6---“I am the First and I am the Last; beside me there is no God.”
Isa. 48:12---“I am the First; I am also the Last.”

These are all said by Jehovah. There’s more.

Yep this is Jehovah too.

Isa. 43:11---“I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Savior.”
Hosea 13:4---“I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but me; for beside me there is no Savior.”.

Agreed. Without God there would have been no Savior. He did make Jesus and send him. Jesus says he did not send himself but the father sent him. So truly God is the Savior. If he never sent Jesus where would we be?

These are said by Jehovah. They state that there is no Savior but God
John 8:24---“If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18---“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, for he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

These are said by Jesus. They state that He alone is Savior.
.

You talked down to me for only highlighting somethings in a verse and you totally skip stuff. You post John 8:24 as though he is saying he is God. Who truly takes things out of context here. Lets look at the verses.

John 8:23-27 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. ( he is the son of God.) 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

See he was not claiming to be God. He was claiming to be the Messiah. God sent him. What did he call himself from the beginning. Son, Word or Lord. Not Jehovah.

John 3:18
I agree that you have to believe in Christ to have everlasting life. That verse does not say he is God. It does say he is the son of God. Or was he lying.
Of course he doesn't lie so he must be the son of God.

But the JW’s, of course, have their own version of this verse in the NWT, which is how they get around what it truly says.
.

Use the bible to interpret itself. All interpretations are Gods. So you use Gods word to interpret what is said. Mans interpretations are not welcomed by God. Hence the Trinity.
Genesis 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

John 10:30-36 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

It was ok to call ministers gods. Jesus was a minister, high priest, and anointed. Plus the son of God. Yes he did deserve to be called a god.

I can’t believe this. Are you suggesting that by “no other doctrine" in verse 3, Paul was referring to what he had just said in verse 2?? There are two obvious problems with that, automatically: (1) Verse 2 is not a doctrinal statement at all, it is a formal greeting. You can’t formulate a rejection of Trinitarian doctrine with a freewheeling analysis of a verse of greeting; and (2) Your interpretation violates the very spirit of this thread, because you have incorrectly removed Paul’s introductory phrase of verse 3 from its true context which follows in vv. 3 and 4, about standing against attempts of others to teach fables and genealogies..

Whats the problem with it. No one is to teach other doctrine. If you don't like that verse here.

2 John 1:9-10 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Matthew 15:9-11 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Following the doctrine of man over the doctrine of God.
Can you show me where I would find the word Trinity in the bible?
Can you show me where I could find the word Godhead attached to Jesus in the bible?
Can you show me a verse where the holy ghost is seen or speaks?
The holy Ghost is Gods influence and power on man. It is God.

Nobody said “Jesus is His own Father.” There is the separation of personalities within the Godhead, but not a separation of essence. Jesus is no less God for being the Son of God, but He is distinctly the Son of God, and yet is God. The same pronouncements are made in many places about Jesus as are made about God, as has been shown. The same is true of the Holy Spirit, He is referred to as the “Spirit of God,” and as the “Spirit of Christ.”.

Can you show me a verse where the holy ghost is seen or speaks?

Jesus in His pre-incarnate existence was “in the form of God” and “equal with God.” Yet He chose to “take the form of a servant,” and being thus willing, “emptied Himself.” He surrendered temporarily the prerogatives and the “form” He had in co-existence with God, and came to be born upon the earth. The exaltation was a restoration of what He already had before, with the addition that now His name is exalted above all others..

He was not God. Look.
John1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
He was in the beginning with God. It clearly states he was in the beginning with God. He did not choose to come here. God sent him.

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
God sent Jesus. plus notice the clear separation of the two. Notice he claims to be the son of God. Not God. So is he being dishonest?
If I went to my sons birthday party and claimed to be him, and took all the glory and presents for myself, would that not be dishonest. Wouldn't that be deceiving people? Why would Jesus not be honest about himself being God? Why?
I don't think Jesus lied to us or ever tried to deceive us. He would not break Gods laws.

And your objections are of the straw man variety. No one is saying God “exalted Himself,” He of course exalted God the Son, who is of the same essence though separate in personality. No one is saying “God is Jesus,” as per your objection, so “how can He be Jesus” is a challenge to something not even claimed. They are of the same divine essence, and so many things are said of them interchangeably. Jesus in the prediction in Isaiah 9:6 is called “everlasting Father.” That does not thereby “make Him the Father,” it just makes valid the use of Father with Him on account of His co-essence in God. God says “beside me there is no Savior.” That does not thereby make Him the one who endured death on the cross, as says Patripassianism, it simply means that He shares in the role of Savior because of His co-essence with the Son. The Holy Spirit is called both “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” because of His co-essence with both.

At his baptism is where his pre-existence came back to him. That is why he took off in the wilderness for 40 days. To get his thoughts together.
It is very clear that Jesus knew what was going to happen to him, his mission and fulfillment of prophecy. He knew things about heaven, the father, Satan and much much more. It is very clear he knew of his pre-existence. He was exalted after he was crucified and raised from the dead. The King of Kings, Redeemer and Avenger of God.
Yes the holy Spirit is in all living things. Some listen to it and some don't. But yes, God is in everyone of us, including Jesus.

[/quote]

 

[elman]

Sorry elman. I no longer will discuss scripture with someone that denies scripture. It makes it an easy escape Goat for some one.

Actually it calls for one to think for themselves each time. Is this from God or not?

No matter what scripture I show you. You have already told me you don't think it to be the word of God.

That is not correct. I think most of First John is from God. I think Paul was speaking divine truth when he said faith without love is worthless. I think James was on tract when he said we all make many mistakes in theology and I of course think most of what Jesus was reported to have said was from God.

You have discredited God and any of the scriptures shown to you as being maybe they're real or this one is man made.

I have elected to use the mind God gave me and not depend on some other man or group of men to tell me what God wants me to know. I have not discredited God in any way.

No one can learn or teach scripture if they don't think it is real. It would be a waist of time to continue our discussion.

I think some of the scripture is real. Some of what men say is from God is not in fact from God.

God is Almighty, and you don't think he has the power to make his word true.

I think He is able to do what ever He wants. I don't think He dictated the Bible to me.

So Jesus came out of God's mouth.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This is not talking about Jesus in this verse. It is talking about the words that God spoke from his mouth.

So you argue it is a book?

How about this verse

Matthew 24:35-36 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Do you think that is talking about a book?

They don't pass away because they are written down.

Where does it say that? This statment is from man, not God.

Oh, thats right, it doesn't matter. God does not have the power to protect his words I guess. He must not be as Almighty as he claims than. If that's what you want to believe.

You claim I said this somewhere? Where?

I believe that God is Almighty and if he wanted the truths in the bible to stay in the bible. Than they're in the bible.

I agree and apparently He did not want us to worship a book or anything said or taught by men.

 

[Logicalthinker]

Actually it calls for one to think for themselves each time. Is this from God or not?

That is not correct. I think most of First John is from God. I think Paul was speaking divine truth when he said faith without love is worthless. I think James was on tract when he said we all make many mistakes in theology and I of course think most of what Jesus was reported to have said was from God.

I have elected to use the mind God gave me and not depend on some other man or group of men to tell me what God wants me to know. I have not discredited God in any way.

I think some of the scripture is real. Some of what men say is from God is not in fact from God.


I think He is able to do what ever He wants. I don't think He dictated the Bible to me.

So you argue it is a book?
Do you think that is talking about a book?

Where does it say that? This statment is from man, not God.

You claim I said this somewhere? Where?


I agree and apparently He did not want us to worship a book or anything said or taught by men.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

It is a good thing someone in the crowd didn't tell Jesus he was full of crap and that it was written by men.

Jesus had no problem using scripture nor did he ever discredit scripture or his father by saying "they are man made I will only use what I want and the rest is garbage."

John 5:39-40 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The scripture is what testifies of Jesus.
Oh, but you can choose to think man made this verse.
Lack of faith is what I call it.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Your trying to break it or discredit scripture. It says it can not be broken.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The unstable and unlearned twist scripture to mean what they want. Or just reject scripture.

Clearly Jesus was very happy using scripture. He trusted it. That means I trust it. The truth is in it.

You have discredited scripture therefore you have discredited God.
Any one of these scriptures I gave you, you could easily dismiss it by saying man wrote that one. That is why talking scripture with someone that denies scripture is pointless. You'll just play your man wrote it card again.

plus I do not worship the bible. I worship Jehovah God Almighty through our Saviour Jesus Christ. Please don't ever insinuate that I worship a book. And yes it is a book, inspired by God. If you can't grasp that, your faith is faulty. You have to have faith that what God and Jesus said about scripture is the truth or you don't have faith.

 

[StudentoftheWord]

The unstable and unlearned twist scripture to mean what they want. Or just reject scripture.

That is because they take everying line upon line, precept upon precept so they would stumble, trapped and snared.

Isaiah 28.

 

[elman]

=Logicalthinker;35258293]Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Do you know what scriptures He was talking about here? Could it have included the book of Enoch?
[SIZE=2[QUOTE]]Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Luke 24:27[/SIZE] And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.[/QUOTE]
Wass all the scriptures the things concerning himself or was it more or less than what the Jews decided was scripture about one hundred years after this time that Jesus said this?

It is a good thing someone in the crowd didn't tell Jesus he was full of crap and that it was written by men.

Had I been there, I doubt I would have either.

Jesus had no problem using scripture nor did he ever discredit scripture or his father by saying "they are man made I will only use what I want and the rest is garbage."

Jesus knew what was from God and what was not. You don't and I am not going to base my life on what you think is from God.

John 5:39-40

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Did John tell you that what he was writting was scripture? Who told you that what John wrote was scripture?

The scripture is what testifies of Jesus.

I probably will not disagree with you on scripture that testifies of Jesus.

Oh, but you can choose to think man made this verse.
Lack of faith is what I call it.

Call it anything you wish. I call it lack of faith in men, not a lack of faith in God.

John 10:35

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Again ask John, what is this scripture you refer to? Where is it?

Your trying to break it or discredit scripture. It says it can not be broken.

Then you don't have to concern yourself about me do you?

Acts 17:11

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Again what were they searching exactly? and how many of them could read and how many bible were there for them to read if they could read? When this was written, the Jews had not fully agreed on their cannon, and the New Testment did not exist.

2 peter 3:16

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter made many mistakes in his theolgy. I know this because James says we all do. James 3:2. Do you believe that verse is from God?

The unstable and unlearned twist scripture to mean what they want. Or just reject scripture.

The stable and learned also twist scriptures to mean what they want, and decide for me what is scripture and what is not scripture, but it is futile for them to do that, because I decide for myself and rely on no man or group of men.

Clearly Jesus was very happy using scripture. He trusted it. That means I trust it. The truth is in it.

Is what you rely on as scriplture, the same thing as what Jesus relied upon as scripture? Are you trusting in the same thing He trusted in?

You have discredited scripture therefore you have discredited God.

Only in your mind. Read Roman 14 again. I think that is from God and you know it is.

Any one of these scriptures I gave you, you could easily dismiss it by saying man wrote that one. That is why talking scripture with someone that denies scripture is pointless. You'll just play your man wrote it card again.

I agree to only play it if the scripture that is alleged to be scripture teaches any variance to God is loving and good and wants you to be loving and good, or if the alleged scripture is nonsense. An example of nonsense would be God sent lying spirits to decieve men or teaches us that money is the answer to everything or that God's army was unable to defeat an enemy because they had iron chariots.

plus I do not worship the bible. I worship Jehovah God Almighty through our Saviour Jesus Christ. Please don't ever insinuate that I worship a book. And yes it is a book, inspired by God. If you can't grasp that, your faith is faulty. You have to have faith that what God and Jesus said about scripture is the truth or you don't have faith.

I have to have faith that God exists and that God is good and loving and wants us to good and loving and if we are, He will give us the grace and forgivness we need to become His adopted child and live with him forever. Faith in God does require me to believe that what a man tells me is from God is from God. In fact true faith in God would be to question it when a man tells me He is speaking for God. If what he says is from God is encouraging me to love others, it probablly is from God. If however he is telling me God wants me to burn a witch at the stake or bomb a lot of people in a market place, that is not from God. It is not important to this issue that the man telling me he is speaking for God lives now or lived thousands of years ago, he is till subject to being questioned and not followed blindly, because others around me are following him and saying he is speaking for God.

 

[Ratiocination]

Call it anything you wish. I call it lack of faith in men, not a lack of faith in God.

Who's God?

 

[Logicalthinker]

Do you know what scriptures He was talking about here? Could it have included the book of Enoch?
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=2
Wass all the scriptures the things concerning himself or was it more or less than what the Jews decided was scripture about one hundred years after this time that Jesus said this?

Had I been there, I doubt I would have either.
Jesus knew what was from God and what was not. You don't and I am not going to base my life on what you think is from God.


Did John tell you that what he was writting was scripture? Who told you that what John wrote was scripture?
I probably will not disagree with you on scripture that testifies of Jesus.
Call it anything you wish. I call it lack of faith in men, not a lack of faith in God.

Again ask John, what is this scripture you refer to? Where is it?

Then you don't have to concern yourself about me do you?

Again what were they searching exactly? and how many of them could read and how many bible were there for them to read if they could read? When this was written, the Jews had not fully agreed on their cannon, and the New Testment did not exist.


Peter made many mistakes in his theolgy. I know this because James says we all do. James 3:2. Do you believe that verse is from God?

The stable and learned also twist scriptures to mean what they want, and decide for me what is scripture and what is not scripture, but it is futile for them to do that, because I decide for myself and rely on no man or group of men.

Is what you rely on as scriplture, the same thing as what Jesus relied upon as scripture? Are you trusting in the same thing He trusted in?
Only in your mind. Read Roman 14 again. I think that is from God and you know it is.
I agree to only play it if the scripture that is alleged to be scripture teaches any variance to God is loving and good and wants you to be loving and good, or if the alleged scripture is nonsense. An example of nonsense would be God sent lying spirits to decieve men or teaches us that money is the answer to everything or that God's army was unable to defeat an enemy because they had iron chariots.

I have to have faith that God exists and that God is good and loving and wants us to good and loving and if we are, He will give us the grace and forgivness we need to become His adopted child and live with him forever. Faith in God does require me to believe that what a man tells me is from God is from God. In fact true faith in God would be to question it when a man tells me He is speaking for God. If what he says is from God is encouraging me to love others, it probablly is from God. If however he is telling me God wants me to burn a witch at the stake or bomb a lot of people in a market place, that is not from God. It is not important to this issue that the man telling me he is speaking for God lives now or lived thousands of years ago, he is till subject to being questioned and not followed blindly, because others around me are following him and saying he is speaking for God.[/QUOTE]
There you go just making accusations. I do not speak for God. I only want people to see false religion for what it is and get out of her. That is what I am trying to do. You can twist what ever you want to say. I will never discredit God.

 

[Logicalthinker]

That is because they take everying line upon line, precept upon precept so they would stumble, trapped and snared.

Isaiah 28.

Isaiah 28
1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! 2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. 3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet: 4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up. 5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people, 6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate. 7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. 22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth. 23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech. 24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground? 25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place? 26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him. 27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod. 28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen. 29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. False religion. Excellent.

7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

The priest and the prophets have erred. Maybe praying to Mary, Nationalism, man made Doctrine (Trinity), ego's, and pride.
Notice in 8. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. That is talking about all the religions of the world. They're unclean and have been teaching while drunk on power. Drinking the wine of power. Molesting little children and still preaching the word of God. They're full of vomit and filthiness.

Plus notice these verses are talking about the ones that are in charge of teaching the word. Not a faithful slave of God. I am not a priest nor a prophet. I am a slave. Waiting for my master.

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
I think part of the sacrifice was coming to live in the flesh, not just dying in the flesh.

It matters not what you think but what is truth!
You've cancelled out our portal to the truth so no one knows or can formulate an opinion!

That is not true. I have done no such thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
Nobody is inherently wicked. We are wicked because we chose to be wicked. He did not leave the human race to sin and death. He created us with the ability to be loving or unloving. If we chose unloving we face the destiny of being mortal, death and the grave. If we choose loving we have the hope of life eternal with Him.

Well no one will ever know! we no longer have a trusted text to confer to.

It will be difficult to think for yourself, but try it, You can get used to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
He can do anything He wishes but He has indicated there is a beginning and an end to time and heaven and earth shall pass away but His word will not pass away. Do you think He is talking about a book when He said that?

indicated where? Are you looking to that errant bible thingy that is so full of errors???

What exactly are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
1 Pet 3:10

perhaps this is one of those errent verses that you speak of!

You can't use that argument, now can you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
God can do anything He wants, but He is trustworth and He will not be unloving. Being loving means He is able to chose to be unloving but chooses to be loving instead. That is why there is no wickedness in Him.

R U sure?

I don't know that I am sure of anything. That is why faith is so important.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
Many different people. In some cases we don't know who authored it or when. There is some indication that Nebecaneezer the ruler of Peria wrote one of the chapters in the book of Daniel.

Ok, let's throw our bibles into the fire!

Why would I do that? The Bible is the most important book ever written and it contains divine truth about God and His nature and the reason we exist and our destiny.

I've seen and participated in some mean debates in my time but never have i come across a professed christian willing to disregard the bible just to save face! This is a new one on me, well done for being so brave!

There are many Christians like me who do not accept the Bible as error free. We have been around a long time. I never said anything about disregarding the Bible. If you say that about me it is a lie.

This really is unorthodox theology!!!

I thought that was the name of this forum.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Like I said the JW's told me about it. I still have not heard any other religions say any thing about it, until you said you teach it. That's the first other than JW's
I'm going to be 34 soon and most religions teach that as soon as you die off to heaven with you., "Don't worry Grandmas in heaven" What ever. That is a lie people tell their children all the time. The truth is she is sleeping until judgment day.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "This day you will be with me in Paradise."
He did NOT say, "This day you will be sleeping, and the next, and the next, and the next. . ."

Paul spoke of being torn between the thought of his coming death, seeing it profitable to stay with those to whom he ministered, but also recognizing that in death he would be "absent from the body, and present with the Lord." (2 Cor. 5:8)
He said nothing about being "absent from the body and sleeping till judgment day."

Well if you see me you have seen my father. Does not make us one.

Whether it does or not, He still said they were one.

That is right every knee will bow to both of them. Jesus is the King of Kings. He will be bowed to. Jehovah will be bowed to even by his son. So yes every knee will bow to them both. But not as a combined God Head.

No other way it can happen. Jesus said "EVERY knee will bow to me." Jehovah said "EVERY knee will bow to me." If EVERY knee will bow to Jesus, and EVERY knee will bow to God, and if God is one, then they have to be one and the same in essence. As for Jesus bowing, was that you or someone else while ago who implied He doesn't have knees now?

I know he is not a liar. No man has ever seen God. Ever. Not even a little. Never. Not even once.

Apparently there is a scriptural exception to your dogmatic rule:

"And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)

I didn't. That is talking about man not Jesus, God, or the holy spirit.
Man has one body and spirit. I didn't think you would miss anything nor am I trying to mislead anyone. I just want people see false religion.

That's upper-case "S" in case you missed that too. It ties back to the previous verse about "keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." I want people to see false religion too, and false religion misses details like that one.
The quote comes from Ephesians. If you were familiar enough with Ephesians, you would not miss this and other similar statements that are evidences of Trinity also:

"For by Him (Christ) we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (2:18)

"Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built toether for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." (2:20-22)

"that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height—to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (Eph. 3:16-19)

"And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Eph. 5:18-21)

This list would grow tremendously if expanded to include the other NT books.

Rev. 1:8---"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev. 1:11---"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last"
Rev. 1:17-18---"I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

These are all said by Jesus Christ.
You got these verses from the apostate bible. The King James Bible. Which is fine, the truth is still in it. You just have to dig deeper.
Any ways if Jehovah's name was still in there where it belongs you would see that this is God Speaking not Jesus. Look up the Greek. and cross reference. You will be surprised. They took Gods name out only in the places that it would interfere with man made doctrine, But kept his name in other places in the bible.

If someone does not see this as Jesus speaking, they are wrong, and provably so from the context (isn't that what this thread is about?).

FIRST: REV. 1:8

The verse just before that clearly indicated who it is: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."
So thanks for making the case for us that this is God, because it refers to Jesus, who is God.

SECOND: REV. 1:11

Other versions do not contain the "first and last" part of the statement as found in the KJV, as you have noted. But if it did, it would not change the fact that it is Jesus speaking, as you will see.

THIRD: REV. 1:17-18

The entire portion from 1:10-18, from the NIV:

"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'
12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

The "Son of Man" reference is one indication, it was a phrase used by Jesus to refer to Himself. But the clearest indication is "I was dead." God was never dead. Jesus was. This is Jesus saying "I am the first and the last," not Jehovah. Not that it matters, as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."

Can you show me a verse where the holy ghost is seen or speaks?

Well, He certainly won't be seen, Jesus said so:
"I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

The world does not see Him, and we do not need to see Him, for we know He is there living within. Jesus also said:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all things that I said to you." (John 14:26)

But if you really want to see a place where the Holy Spirit was seen, check out the details of the story of Pentecost, with living tongues of fire that were visible as the Holy Spirit gave them the ability to speak with other languages. But the text does not specifically say the tongues of fire "were" the Holy Spirit, an objection I'm sure you'd raise, so we can't say without refutation that this is an instance of the Holy Spirit "being seen." But by golly, the word derives from ruach, meaning "breath" or "wind," and the sound of wind was heard as the Spirit arrived. Even so, we don't see wind, we see the results of wind. And that is what they saw--and boy did they EVER see the results of THIS wind.

So to answer, no, we can't say with absolute certainty that the Holy Spirit has ever been seen. But He certainly speaks, but not with the normal method of sound waves picked up aurally. He speaks from within, which is where He dwells. In some places He is the "Spirit of God," in others He is the "Spirit of Christ." And all three are of the divine essence, that is, God.

That is why he took off in the wilderness for 40 days. To get his thoughts together.

Well, that's certainly an original! Gee, I don't think I can go along with a watered-down version of Jesus who knows who He is at age 12, and at age 30 has to go into the wilderness to "get His thoughts together." No, my Bible says the Spirit led Him into the wilderness.

 

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Who's God?

Nobody owns God.