Taking it out of context?

[Logicalthinker]

You did not quote the scriptures that said the old earth would be done away and where Peter said everything will be distroyed by fire. When you quoted the forever passages you did not include the fires of Sodoom and Gomorrah that will burn forever. You missed the scripture that says all are resurrected. I agree all do not inherit eternal life---Oh and you missed all the myrids in Heaven with the 144,000--so vast it could not be numbered. We are not going to be resurrected to physical bodies here on earth---1 Cor 15. This picture of 144,000 in heaven with God and the rest on earth is a man made idea----not in scripture and can only be supported by scripture by misusing different scriptures and ignoring other scriptures.

I went and reread all of 1 Corinthians 15 It talks about the resurrection and the annointed ones. Read it again and think about who the sleeping people are.
1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Now look at 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

The mystery. not all sleep. That is the 144,000. But we shall all be changed. Paul is talking about the anointed ones, he is one of them. and they went to heaven as angels.
If not all sleep who are the sleeping ones that Paul talks about?
They are the ones that are resurrected. Those are the ones that come out of the graves.

People just glance over the resurrection but it is not in the bible to just fill space.

Remember If a religion contradicts the bible it is a false religion.

 

[Ratiocination]

They did on the other hand get some prophecy wrong. like the world will end in 1975. That was very damning for them. But unlike false religions of the day the publicly went out and said they got it wrong fixed the errors and proceeded forward. The false religions of the day just hide their fallacy.

Hi Logical, would it be possible for you to show me a single watchtower or awake article that has the governing body saying that 1975 would be the end of the world, or end of Satans world, or end of wicked people?

I went through this whole issue with someone on this forum about 2 years ago and he couldn't show anything that proves the watchtower org. gave these prophetic statements as truth. The best he could come up with, and I conceeded, is that the organization hinted at the possibillity of the end in 1975!

Even faithful christians of old have "hinted", and so modern Christians will "hint", I could seriously show you an argument from scripture that "hints" the world will end in spring 2009, but it will only be a "hint".

love in Christ

 

[Logicalthinker]

Hi Logical, would it be possible for you to show me a single watchtower or awake article that has the governing body saying that 1975 would be the end of the world, or end of Satans world, or end of wicked people?

I went through this whole issue with someone on this forum about 2 years ago and he couldn't show anything that proves the watchtower org. gave these prophetic statements as truth. The best he could come up with, and I conceeded, is that the organization hinted at the possibillity of the end in 1975!

Even faithful christians of old have "hinted", and so modern Christians will "hint", I could seriously show you an argument from scripture that "hints" the world will end in spring 2009, but it will only be a "hint".

love in Christ

Sorry you are correct, more of a hinting. But it did cause 1/3 of the religion to leave. Some did come back. I feel it would be more beneficial not to say dates. We don't need specific dates because the events speak for them selves. The end times are quite apparent to people that read scripture.
I am not trying to discredit the Jehovah Witnesses. I do believe they are the one true faith the bible refers to.
All religions try to read the prophecies in the bible. It's a hard thing to do. Prophecy is usually noticed after it happens. But it is not wrong of any religion to read scripture and apply it to everyday events. That is how we are suppose to know the end times. Almost all get it wrong. because it is a mystery unfolding.

But as for following Jesus and scripture the Jehovah's Witnesses follow it unwavering. Kudos to them.

 

[Ratiocination]

Sorry you are correct, more of a hinting. But it did cause 1/3 of the religion to leave. Some did come back. I feel it would be more beneficial not to say dates. We don't need specific dates because the events speak for them selves. The end times are quite apparent to people that read scripture.
I am not trying to discredit the Jehovah Witnesses. I do believe they are the one true faith the bible refers to.
All religions try to read the prophecies in the bible. It's a hard thing to do. Prophecy is usually noticed after it happens. But it is not wrong of any religion to read scripture and apply it to everyday events. That is how we are suppose to know the end times. Almost all get it wrong. because it is a mystery unfolding.

But as for following Jesus and scripture the Jehovah's Witnesses follow it unwavering. Kudos to them.

Hi logical, I wasn't trying to to defend the witnesses for making mistakes, i've just re-read your statment and can see that you were only pointing out that we all make mistakes and the witnesses are no different.
I guess thats why I've chosen to be one of Jah's witnesses because if we are wrong then Jehovah could and has corrected us, so hopfully at the end he would show us favor for our humility.

Love.

 

[elman]

I went and reread all of 1 Corinthians 15 It talks about the resurrection and the annointed ones. Read it again and think about who the sleeping people are.
1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Now look at 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

The mystery. not all sleep. That is the 144,000. But we shall all be changed. Paul is talking about the anointed ones, he is one of them. and they went to heaven as angels.
If not all sleep who are the sleeping ones that Paul talks about?
They are the ones that are resurrected. Those are the ones that come out of the graves.

People just glance over the resurrection but it is not in the bible to just fill space.

Remember If a religion contradicts the bible it is a false religion.

My Bible does not say those who are not asleep are the 144,000, does yours? Nor does it say the ones that are asleep are the 144,000. If we are Christians we are all the anointed ones santified in Christ, we are all priests, we are all equal as in one in Christ Jesus. There is no John class. Paul is one of those who sleep now I guess if those who are asleep are those who are not alive at the end of all time.

 

[elman]

Sorry you are correct, more of a hinting. But it did cause 1/3 of the religion to leave. Some did come back. I feel it would be more beneficial not to say dates. We don't need specific dates because the events speak for them selves. The end times are quite apparent to people that read scripture.
I am not trying to discredit the Jehovah Witnesses. I do believe they are the one true faith the bible refers to.
All religions try to read the prophecies in the bible. It's a hard thing to do. Prophecy is usually noticed after it happens. But it is not wrong of any religion to read scripture and apply it to everyday events. That is how we are suppose to know the end times. Almost all get it wrong. because it is a mystery unfolding.

But as for following Jesus and scripture the Jehovah's Witnesses follow it unwavering. Kudos to them.

We are not suppose to know the end times. It will come by surprise, as a thief in the night.

 

[HomeBound]

I don't care what any of you say or think you "know"
I don't believe there is any one religion that is right and true. A God of unconditional love simply wouldn't work like that.
I think it's very self important, self absorbed and ignorant to believe you belong to the ONE TRUE FAITH and all others will be burning in Hell for eternity.
Do you guys actually listen to how that sounds? It's just FOOLISH, and, I might add... evil.
The beginning of sin is to believe that you're in any way better than anyone else. Or for that matter different in the eyes of God from anyone else when it comes to his divine love.

 

[Ratiocination]

My Bible does not say those who are not asleep are the 144,000, does yours? Nor does it say the ones that are asleep are the 144,000. If we are Christians we are all the anointed ones santified in Christ, we are all priests, we are all equal as in one in Christ Jesus. There is no John class. Paul is one of those who sleep now I guess if those who are asleep are those who are not alive at the end of all time.

I'm not sure of your exact issue with logicalthinker, but I thought I'd point out that i don't want to go to heaven. I quite like it here. Especially as i could be part of the biggest rebuilding program ever to have happened on earth after Jehovah has destroyed the wicked!

P.S. a quick visit to heaven would be good, but I'd get home sick after not to long and would probably miss my kids...

Love in Christ.

 

[elman]

I'm not sure of your exact issue with logicalthinker, but I thought I'd point out that i don't want to go to heaven. I quite like it here. Especially as i could be part of the biggest rebuilding program ever to have happened on earth after Jehovah has destroyed the wicked!

P.S. a quick visit to heaven would be good, but I'd get home sick after not to long and would probably miss my kids...

Love in Christ.

This earth is going to be disolved. The new place is with God--anywhere with God is heaven. Why would you think you would be alone in Heaven without your family?

 

[Ratiocination]

I don't care what any of you say or think you "know"
I don't believe there is any one religion that is right and true. A God of unconditional love simply wouldn't work like that.

Yes of course... that's why Jesus accepted the arrogant Jews into his new movement without question! Come on!

I think it's very self important, self absorbed and ignorant to believe you belong to the ONE TRUE FAITH and all others will be burning in Hell for eternity.

I'll let you be the one to tell the 1st century disciples that little chestnut. Wait! I think they may have already heard it!
Also no one will be burned forever...

Do you guys actually listen to how that sounds? It's just FOOLISH, and, I might add... evil.
The beginning of sin is to believe that you're in any way better than anyone else. Or for that matter different in the eyes of God from anyone else when it comes to his divine love.

As above!

 

[Ratiocination]

This earth is going to be disolved. The new place is with God--anywhere with God is heaven. Why would you think you would be alone in Heaven without your family?

Simply because the bible says that the earth will be inhabited forever. Matt. 5:5 people of faith need to inhabit it otherwise Gods grand purpose will be thwarted. Gen. 1:28

 

[elman]

Simply because the bible says that the earth will be inhabited forever. Matt. 5:5 people of faith need to inhabit it otherwise Gods grand purpose will be thwarted. Gen. 1:28

It also says the fires of Sodoom and Gamorrah will burn forever. It also says this earth will be disolved. What do you think God's purpose is? I think it is for us to be with God.

 

[Logicalthinker]

My Bible does not say those who are not asleep are the 144,000, does yours? Nor does it say the ones that are asleep are the 144,000. If we are Christians we are all the anointed ones santified in Christ, we are all priests, we are all equal as in one in Christ Jesus. There is no John class. Paul is one of those who sleep now I guess if those who are asleep are those who are not alive at the end of all time.

The sleeping are the one that will be resurrected.

 

[Logicalthinker]

We are not suppose to know the end times. It will come by surprise, as a thief in the night.

Thats right. Like a thief in the night. I don't deny that. No one knows the ultimate time the clock will strike. But we were told to watch for signs of the end times. It was just as in the days of Noah and of Lot.
We were told what to look for in mans attitudes to one another.

2 Timothy 3:1-9 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

Of course people will say that has been going on for thousands of years. Of course it has. But now its in your face. Road rage, kids killing kids, kids killing parents/grandparents, priests molesting children, false doctrine abound. Where does it end. People can't even take two minuets to get off their cell phones to tell the grocery clerk hello and to give them respect during the transaction. Just blab, blab, blab, and they are ignored like they are no one. We make movies that are blasphemes like "Dogma" and "Bruce Almighty". Although they are funny and I am guilty of watching them, I also know they make in fun of God and that is blasphemy. People are unthankful at an all high. Hardly anyone prays anymore. I know some do. But an age of entitlement is starting to begin. The children of the day are starting to feel entitled to things. Take for granted the good stuff like family. Just ipods, vgames, music, my sweet 16(people mortgage their homes to keep up with what the child wants.), and on and on.

Of course as we have seen countless times in history great civilization collapse in on itself. It has not changed.

 

[Logicalthinker]

I don't care what any of you say or think you "know"
I don't believe there is any one religion that is right and true. A God of unconditional love simply wouldn't work like that.
I think it's very self important, self absorbed and ignorant to believe you belong to the ONE TRUE FAITH and all others will be burning in Hell for eternity.
Do you guys actually listen to how that sounds? It's just FOOLISH, and, I might add... evil.
The beginning of sin is to believe that you're in any way better than anyone else. Or for that matter different in the eyes of God from anyone else when it comes to his divine love.

No one burns in hell forever. HomeBound no one is telling you to believe anything you don't want to. But you should always research what someone has said in the bible to see if they are speaking the truth. The bible is the guide. Read it, Study it, Cross reference the thing. People shouldn't just take there salvation lightly. It's a big deal. Be wise and look for false religion in your journeys my friend.

 

[Ratiocination]

What do you think God's purpose is? I think it is for us to be with God.

So do I, just the same as Adam and eve were with God in the garden of Eden.

 

[elman]

So do I, just the same as Adam and eve were with God in the garden of Eden.

I agree except I don't expect to be in a literal garden on this earth nor do I expect streets of gold. If that is how it is, I wll enjoy it, but I will also be surprised because I think these images are describing an existence that I am incapable of imagining.

 

[Ratiocination]

I agree except I don't expect to be in a literal garden on this earth nor do I expect streets of gold. If that is how it is, I wll enjoy it, but I will also be surprised because I think these images are describing an existence that I am incapable of imagining.

Do you belive that the garden of Eden was just an image?

Do you think God is able to create a physical intelligence that will remain obedient to him??????

Much love,

 

[elman]

=Ratiocination;35028512]Do you belive that the garden of Eden was just an image?

I belileve it is symbolic of a close relationship to God, so probably my answer to your question is yes.

Do you think God is able to create a physical intelligence that will remain obedient to him??????

Much love,

Yes I think God is able to do that. That is not what I think He did in creating man.

 

[Ratiocination]

I belileve it is symbolic of a close relationship to God, so probably my answer to your question is yes.

Ok, do you believe that Jesus's fleshly example on earth was just an image? Or, was it an example of perfect human existence?

Yes I think God is able to do that. That is not what I think He did in creating man.

Why not? What a waste of time! why not just create more angels?