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I think this topic has come up a few times on this area of the board. And for the record I am not one who claims to believe in what some popularly label as "OSAS" but I think a close objective and optimistic look at the doctrine is a good thing to do.
There are many different "flavors" of OSAS and various ones of them rejected by those who accept some other form of OSAS. For the sake of optimism I am selecting what I consider to be the most defensible version of OSAS for this topic.
The best one I have found is one that states that "if you live like the devil then you are not saved no matter what you may be claiming regarding OSAS".
It appears to me that the above is a view that is shared by
... and a great many others who say they believe in OSAS but also know that living like the devil is not a sign of OSAS. And I agree with them on that point.
- John MacArthur
- Chuck Swindoll
- R.C. Sproul
- C.H. Spurgeon
Those men also state that we are "saved by grace through faith" Eph 2:8-10 so that our salvation is "not of works" -- it is not works based salvation. And I agree with them on that point as well.
They also state that the Christian life of obedience is not to get a lost person saved - rather it is the sign, the fruit of a saved person as Christ states in Matthew 7 "by their fruits you shall know them". And I also agree with them on that point.
They also state that every person whom you may meet in heaven will be able to trace their life back from that moment in heaven - back to a point where they were saved and that they "persevered firm to the end" over that entire time. Saved that entire time. And I agree with them on that point as well.
They will also say that just because you have tradition or a magisterium telling you not to believe in OSAS does not mean OSAS is doctrinal error. And I agree with them on that point as well. They will say that "sola scriptura" is the only way to test doctrine to see if it is error... and I agree with that in so far as it means "study the Bible to see if a given doctrine contradicts scripture or aligns with it" Acts 17:11.
But as I said - I am not one who claims to believe in what is popularly called OSAS.
As for the OSAS teachers you mentioned:
On the one hand while these Free Grace teachers appear to be for holy living (by what they have said), yet on the other hand they have said things that makes this appear to not be the case.
How so?
Well, here are some quotations from the list of Free Grace teachers (that you mentioned) that suggests that the believer can live in sin and still be saved (based on their own statements).
John MacArthur said:
"...sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer..."
Source:
The MacArthur Study Bible, page: 1927, his comment on James 1:15.
"No sin a believer can commit - past, present, or future - can be held against him, since the penalty was paid by Christ and righteousness was imputed to the believer. And no sin will ever reverse this divine legal decision...."
Source:
The MacArthur Study Bible, page: 1706, his comment on Romans 8:1.
MacArthur, talking about suicide says this:
"It's not only a sin, it's illegal," MacArthur says. "But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence"
Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide
Chuck Swindoll said:
"Let me clarify something because many, many in the family of God have no room in their theology for the carnal Christian, which creates tremendous confusion. If you don't understand the carnal Christian, you will begin to believe that you have fallen from grace. You will believe that you have been born again and then you will think later when you do these number of things, you have not been born again."
Source:
Chuck Swindoll, Clearing the Hurdle of Carnality: 1 Corinthians; Audiotape CHH 5-A.
R.C. Sproul said:
"...if my confidence that I will persevere is based on my confidence that I will not sin, it’s on very shaky ground. One thing the Bible makes clear to me is that even though I am a redeemed person, I will in all likelihood, and inevitably, continue to sin to some degree. If it were up to my strength to persevere to guarantee my future salvation, then I would have very little hope of persevering."
Source:
Can Salvation Be Lost Because of Sin?
C.H. Spurgeon said:
"“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” Your sins which are many are all forgiven you if you believe in Jesus, for the measure of your forgiveness is not your faith, nor your tears of repentance, nor your bitter regrets, nor your sin, nor your conception of God’s goodness, nor your character, either past or present or future, but the forgiveness which is granted from the Lord “according to the riches of His grace.”
Source:
https://www.spurgeongems.org/vols25-27/chs1555.pdf
Now, see my next post as to what Jesus said about sin and what it can do.
God can rescue or God can cut off. To be receiving God’s blessing does not always mean eternal life, but temporal life.
Paul was voting for the death of Christians; a sin that might result in eternal death. He was called to Christianity and turned from his sin.
Judas Iscariot was chosen to be a student of Christ. He was favored receiving blessings and life. After he betrayed Jesus he lost everything.
The good Lord gives and the good Lord takes away. One who was born a few decades ago should not boast about being saved for all time.
MacArthur believes in retro-deleting the assurance of any believer today who claims OSAS - if 20 years from today they start to "live like the devil". You point to some instances where he does not regard the person as "living like the devil" but rather as "making a momentary bad choice" - and of course there are folks on both sides of the OSAS question that will argue that "the Christian is not lost each time they sin. ... needing to be re-converted and born-again after each sin" 1 John 2:1 seems to support that view.
(But of course I am not here to defend all the teaching of MacArthur -- just pointing out some instances where he has a point).
You said:They all appear to be saying that their belief in "perseverance of the saints" is not based on a notion that "Saints never sin".
Be that as it may - my point in referencing their views is specifically in regard to their affirmation of "perseverance of the saints"
Although there are several Biblical texts that convince me that God will not allow His children to go to Hell, Romans chapter 8 absolutely seals it for me.
Especially verses 35-39,
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
No one abandons the faith unless something in this list causes them to which Paul says can never happen.
Many people claimed they are born again. Am I not supposed to be gullible and naive to trust all of them? There are people who claimed they have the gift of eternal life, but they were not sent by God. They are false prophets.We will have to agree to disagree.
Judas was not born again. The New Covenant kicked in at resurrection time when the Holy Spirit was given to indwell and seal the salvation of believers.
Suggesting He Gives eternal life and takes it away makes God a liar - that is a serious claim.
As for 1 John 2:1:
Well, this is in line with 1 John 1:9 which is to repent or confess of sin so as to be forgiven of that sin. This is to reinstate forgiveness by GOD and or salvation in Him. If we do not confess of sin, then we will not be forgiven.
John MacArhur essentially says that a Christian suicide victim is saved. But a suicide victim cannot confess of sin.
Please carefully re-read what they have said. Swindoll is saying the carnal Christian is saved, and Sproul is saying that he can sin to some degree and still be secure in his salvation,
They ALL believe that you can sin on some level (as a matter of fact that the believer will sin again), and that they will be saved even if they do sin again. Granted, I am not saying God's grace is not there for a believer if they stumble into sin (i.e. they can confess and forsake sin),
but a believer should never push the idea that they will sin again, and that they are saved even if they do abide in sin. Abiding in grievous unconfessed sin is abiding in spiritual death.
So I am saved because of my deeds?James says a person is drawn away by their own lusts and desires (See James 1:14). This is why external things do not ultimately separate a believer from God. It is the person's own choice and or their sin that can separate them from God. For you will not find "you" or "sin" in the list of things mentioned in Romans 8:35-39. In fact, Romans 8:13 says if the believer lives after the flesh (sin) they will die, and if they put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, they will live (live eternally).
Agreed. To sin and then become "married to that sin" so as not to repent of it - is to walk away from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in John 16 and attempt salvation apart from Christ, apart from the Holy Spirit - which is not possible.
You can question his logic at that point - but another thing a suicide victim does not do is "persist in rejecting the convicting work of the Holy Spirit" because having made that one "mistake of the moment" he has excluded himself from having more chances, more opportunity. What is more - suicide is most often a case where the person is under pressure - could be from drugs, medicine ... something that distorts their thinking due to chemical imbalance. They make decisions they would not normally make if they were like you and I - free from those drugs. Sometimes the drugs are actually being prescribed to treat some other related mental or physical illness and a "side effect" is increased depression and thoughts of suicide. Who knows how God sorts that one out? In any case I don't claim MacArthur is necessarily right or wrong on that point, but I do get your point.
Swindoll is a 3 point Calvinist and Sproul and MacArthur are 5 point Calvinists - which means all of them insist that "perseverance of the saints" means your assurance of salvation today gets totally deleted if 20 years from today you fail to persevere in the faith but choose instead to "live like the devil"
4 point Calvinists and some Arminians will drop "perseverance of the saints" altogether and insist on "preservation of the saints" which says basically "God is going to count you as still-saved even if you are living like the devil".
They are all against the idea of claiming to be saved only because you are no longer sinning. They all would reject that. However they have "some line" that they draw where if a saved person goes beyond that line -- then in their view that person "never was saved to start with" which in effect means they "retro delete the assurance of salvation" all the way back to "day 1"
Clearly in the view you hold you also have the concept of a saint, a born-again believer who is saved but sometimes sins - and is not lost with each and every sin they commit. So in that regard you are in agreement - but where you draw the line may not be the same point where they draw the line as to just when it is such a person as "gone too far" and is now lost. (or in their view is now "never-was-saved to start with" )
Agreed. To sin and then become "married to that sin" so as not to repent of it - is to walk away from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in John 16 and attempt salvation apart from Christ, apart from the Holy Spirit - which is not possible.
You can question his logic at that point - but another thing a suicide victim does not do is "persist in rejecting the convicting work of the Holy Spirit" because having made that one "mistake of the moment" he has excluded himself from having more chances, more opportunity. What is more - suicide is most often a case where the person is under pressure - could be from drugs, medicine ... something that distorts their thinking due to chemical imbalance. They make decisions they would not normally make if they were like you and I - free from those drugs. Sometimes the drugs are actually being prescribed to treat some other related mental or physical illness and a "side effect" is increased depression and thoughts of suicide. Who knows how God sorts that one out? In any case I don't claim MacArthur is necessarily right or wrong on that point, but I do get your point.
Swindoll is a 3 point Calvinist and Sproul and MacArthur are 5 point Calvinists - which means all of them insist that "perseverance of the saints" means your assurance of salvation today gets totally deleted if 20 years from today you fail to persevere in the faith but choose instead to "live like the devil"
4 point Calvinists and some Arminians will drop "perseverance of the saints" altogether and insist on "preservation of the saints" which says basically "God is going to count you as still-saved even if you are living like the devil".
They are all against the idea of claiming to be saved only because you are no longer sinning. They all would reject that. However they have "some line" that they draw where if a saved person goes beyond that line -- then in their view that person "never was saved to start with" which in effect means they "retro delete the assurance of salvation" all the way back to "day 1"
Clearly in the view you hold you also have the concept of a saint, a born-again believer who is saved but sometimes sins - and is not lost with each and every sin they commit. So in that regard you are in agreement - but where you draw the line may not be the same point where they draw the line as to just when it is such a person as "gone too far" and is now lost. (or in their view is now "never-was-saved to start with" )
So I am saved because of my deeds?
So I am saved by my deeds?We are saved by both God's grace, and by Sanctification (Which is the work of God done through the believer). We cannot take credit alone for the work of God done through us, but we do have to cooperate with the good that God desires to do through our lives. So are we saved by our good deeds alone? No. Of course not. We are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, and we are also then saved by God's work done through us in our cooperating with His Sanctifying work. All praise and glory goes unto the Lord. But most want the easy way that the Bible warns against. Most want to think they can use God's grace as a license to sin. But Jude 1:4 warns us against doing so.
So I am saved by my deeds?
If I can turn my back on God then my salvation is not ultimately up to Him.You are saved by your cooperation with God's plan of salvation. God saves us by His grace, but we have to cooperate in accepting His grace. God saves us in Sanctification (i.e. in making us to live a holy life), but we have to cooperate with the good work God does through us. So technically... "no" you are not saved by your good deeds alone without God. God is the One who ultimately saves (both in Justification and in Sanctification), but our cooperation with God's saving work is essential to salvation.... "yes." If such were not the case, then there would be no purpose in having a judgment.
Care to explain verses like Romans 8:13, Titus 1:16, Titus 2:11-12, and Hebrews 12:14?
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