"Take this cup"

[Ripheus27]

If you've ever read the Epistle to the Hebrews as well as Plato's story of the Forms, you might notice a similarity between the concept of the Ideal Republic, a heavenly city whose sun is the Form of the Good, and the New Testament image of the New Jerusalem. You might also have heard of Apollonius of Tyana, and at least spent some debating his similarity to Christ.

I find it rather strange that Jesus speaks of His impending crucifixion in terms of drinking from His Father's cup. Now perhaps He was referring in some way to the Last Supper: perhaps He thought one of the Apostles would poison the wine, or He knew that the wine would come right before He was betrayed, or something along those lines. I don't know how often a young Jewish man would be liable to compare a literally foreseen crucifixion to drinking from a cup of poison unless speaking in metaphors. And if He didn't literally foresee such a thing, if He was predicting it, on what did He base His prediction? And wouldn't crucifixion still have seemed the likelier threat?

But suppose, instead, that Greek philosophy was more a catalyst for the genesis of Christianity than just contributing the conception of the Logos to the religion, for instance. What if there were adherents of Plato's philosophy who adapted his metaphysics to Jewish cosmology, teaching in an area Christ at least passed through at some point in His life? Or maybe He independently figured out a philosophy akin to the one traceable to Socrates. (I don't really know who the Essenes were, and I imagine there might be answers to my question already out there, so forgive me my lack of education if it proves my theories unoriginal.) Anyway, suppose He hears the legend of Socrates' demise. Christ knows He's intending in Jerusalem something like Socrates did in Athens. Only, Jerusalem is far more volatile than Athens back in the day, so if Socrates was unjustly executed for "provoking" his city, Christ has some pretty good reasons to expect Himself to be put to death as He protests in Jerusalem. And so to compare the known threat of being crucified with Socrates being made to drink water laced with hemlock would be poetic justice after a fashion.

 

[dunstantom]

I don't have much to offer on this, but I think it's an interesting theory. I'd like to know if someone has input on the origin of this metaphor of the cup. Especially since most of the other biblical uses of the metaphor consider it a good thing to have a cup that overflows. Very interesting that Jesus uses it in a negative light.

 

[eachallberg]

This thread reminds me of a previous thread called, "recycled teachings".

Very interesting, and new to me.
Thanks for posting this.

 

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Perhaps the clue is in Genesis.

And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine [was] before me;

And in the vine [were] three branches: and it [was] as though it budded, [and] her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:

And Pharaoh's cup [was] in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.

And Joseph said unto him, This [is] the interpretation of it: The three branches [are] three days:

Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee unto thy place: and thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.

 

[gord44]

Interesting post for sure! Thanks for sharing!

 

[g_n_o_s_i_s]

Judas might also be found in the Genesis passage.

When the chief baker saw that the interpretation was good, he said unto Joseph, I also [was] in my dream, and, behold, [I had] three white baskets on my head:

And in the uppermost basket [there was] of all manner of bakemeats for Pharaoh; and the birds did eat them out of the basket upon my head.

And Joseph answered and said, This [is] the interpretation thereof: The three baskets [are] three days:

Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.

So we have both bread and wine in this passage, just enough to have a Eucharist. Judas dipped his bread with Jesus and three days later was hanging in a tree. I just love the ante-types you sometimes come across.

 

[timewerx]

I find it rather strange that Jesus speaks of His impending crucifixion in terms of drinking from His Father's cup. Now perhaps He was referring in some way to the Last Supper: perhaps He thought one of the Apostles would poison the wine, or He knew that the wine would come right before He was betrayed, or something along those lines. I don't know how often a young Jewish man would be liable to compare a literally foreseen crucifixion to drinking from a cup of poison unless speaking in metaphors. And if He didn't literally foresee such a thing, if He was predicting it, on what did He base His prediction? And wouldn't crucifixion still have seemed the likelier threat?

The cup is a metaphor. Since Jesus also asked His disciple to drink of this "cup" of the new covenant...

...The cup signifies the bloody trials one must endure by living and preaching Truth. The bread signifies the Word of God. The cup applies to all True Christians, it's not a figurative "death to self", you will lose most of your acquaintances, be hated by most of your friends and relatives, lose a lot of worldly opportunities and finally, lose the friendship and respect of this world. To unbelievers, such fate is more than enough to drive them to suicide. Does anyone think it only happens to a Christian living in Muslim countries? It happens in Western world too since most of them follow a false Christianity, they too will hate anyone living the Truth - the True Christianity.

If you've ever read the Epistle to the Hebrews as well as Plato's story of the Forms, you might notice a similarity between the concept of the Ideal Republic, a heavenly city whose sun is the Form of the Good, and the New Testament image of the New Jerusalem. You might also have heard of Apollonius of Tyana, and at least spent some debating his similarity to Christ.

Read Christianity's pagan beginnings:

Christianity has Pagan DNA

Does anyone think Catholicism the one to avoid? Popular Christian denominations have its roots in Catholicism. Many pagan traditions both religions enjoy which other religions don't observe like Islam for example.

I'm not rebuking True Christianity but the form of Christianity most people adopt and enjoy like an amusement park? Yes!

 

[Ripheus27]

The cup is a metaphor. Since Jesus also asked His disciple to drink of this "cup" of the new covenant...

But why a metaphor of a cup in the first place? Elsewhere He talks of "taking up one's own cross" or something. So suppose (a) He divinely foreknew that He would be crucified, and yet referred to this impending form of execution in terms of drinking from a cup, or (b) He made a reasoned prediction that He would be executed at Jerusalem, and the question arises then as to what He based his prediction on.

 

[The Gregorian]

As fancy as we'd like to translate the bible with ye olde englisheth in order to make everything sound holier than though.... art....

these people were people, and they spoke like real people. There was quite a few informal phrases that were just figures of speech. When he says "take this cup from me," it's very similar to someone saying "I have a lot on my plate."

... there's no mystical reason for it... it's not a literal cup or plate... that's just an expression to symbolize what he's dealing with.