Ta'anit B'Khorim

[Yahudim]

Thank you for your thoughts Tal. It's sometimes so hard to make the distinction from our world of understanding to the world of understandiing back then - it's really hard sometimes. But it must be done or we wind up with faulty interpretations.
May we never become complacent in our learning.

And thank you for your kindness Sis. You bring up a very salient point. Not only has the culture changed; there has been great influences that have shaped the Hebrew language that are often ignored when evaluating scripture. One of the most overlooked changes that has occurred is the difference between the biblical Hebrew and the modern Hebrew. Unfortunately, there is little agreement on the degree and measure of these differences, though the influences on the language are easily documented.

 

[visionary]

Scripture to prove me otherwise..

 

[yedida]

What is the ECF? And yes there is quite alot of Brother Martin Luther's that God has shown me isn't quite cricket. As far as a good reason to throw it (Talmud) aside, perhaps you should reread my previous post. I sort of added a thing or two to it.

ECF = Early Church Fathers (I couldl come up with some other terms (for laughs) but I'l leave it at the actual )
Perhaps tomorrow or the next day, flu, not easy reading right now......

 

[Jerushabelle]

ECF = Early Church Fathers (I couldl come up with some other terms (for laughs) but I'l leave it at the actual )
Perhaps tomorrow or the next day, flu, not easy reading right now......

Yes, so could I but, they were our Brothers also and nobody's perfect.
I'm sorry you are sick. I will keep you in prayer that you heal quickly.

 

[yedida]

Preach on my bro Tal. Always nice to see you around!!

 

[pat34lee]

I too see Talmud as dangerous when taken as scripture. But when taken for what it is, to the discerning of scripture, it can be a wonderful resource.

I agree with most of what you wrote except this. Talmud is the leaven of the Pharisees; there is no safe amount to accept.

 

[Yahudim]

You are most certainly correct. All of Jewish history is worthless dung, especially Talmud. The only thing worth studying is the English translation of the German interpretation of the Latin translation of the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic record of scripture as approved by Rome.

 

[Jerushabelle]

You are most certainly correct. All of Jewish history is worthless dung, especially Talmud. The only thing worth studying is the English translation of the German interpretation of the Latin translation of the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic record of scripture as approved by Rome.

I did not say that. I didn't even imply that.

 

[visionary]

In Judaism, there are essentially three potential purposes in fasting, and a combination of some or all of these could apply to any given fast. Judaism (from the Greek Ioudaïsmos, derived from the Hebrew יהודה Yehudah, " Judah " in Hebrew יַהֲדוּת Yahedut A ta'anit or taanis is a fast in Judaism. A Jewish fast may have one or more purposes including A tool for repentance One purpose in fasting is the achievement of atonement for sins and omissions in Divine service. fasting is not considered the primary means of acquiring atonement; rather, sincere regret for and rectification of wrongdoing is key (see Isaiah, 58:1-13). The Book of Isaiah ( Hebrew: Sefer Y'sha'yah ספר ישעיה is a book of the Bible traditionally attributed to the Prophet Isaiah, who lived

Nevertheless, fasting is conducive to atonement, for it tends to precipitate contrition in the one who fasts (see Joel, 2:12-18). The Book of Joel is part of the Jewish Tanakh, and also the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. This is why the Bible requires fasting (lit. self affliction) on Yom Kippur (Jewish holiday of atonement) (see Leviticus, 23:27,29,32; Numbers, 29:7; Tractate Yoma, 8:1; ibid. Yom Kippur (יוֹם כִּפּוּר ˈjɔm kiˈpur also known in English as the Day of Atonement, is the most solemn and important of the Jewish holidays Its Leviticus (from Greek Λευιτικός, "relating to the Levites " The Book of Numbers, ( Bamidbar, meaning in the wilderness) is the fourth book of the Torah, the Tanakh, and the Old Testament. For the brush-footed butterfly Genus, see Yoma (butterfly. Yoma ( Hebrew: יומא lit Babylonian Talmud, 81a). Because, according to the Hebrew Bible, hardship and calamitous circumstances can occur as a result of wrongdoing (see, for example, Leviticus, 26:14-41), fasting is often undertaken by the community or by individuals to achieve atonement and avert catastrophe (see, for example, Esther, 4:3,16; Jonah, 3:7). The Book of Esther is a book of the Tanakh ( Hebrew Bible) and of the Old Testament. In the Hebrew Bible, the Book of Jonah is the fifth book in a series of books called the Minor Prophets Most of the Talmud's Tractate Ta'anit ("Fast") is dedicated to the protocol involved in declaring and observing fast days. Ta'anit or Taanis is a volume (or "tractate" of the Mishnah, Tosefta, and both Talmuds In Judaism

The second purpose in fasting is commemorative mourning. Indeed, most communal fast days that are set permanently in the Jewish calendar fulfill this purpose. These fasts include: Tisha B'Av, the Seventeenth of Tammuz, the Tenth of Tevet (all of the three dedicated to mourning the loss of the destroyed Temple in Jerusalem), and the Fast of Gedalia. Tisha B'Av (תשעה באב or he ט׳ באב "the Ninth of Av," is an annual fast day in Judaism, named for the ninth day ( Tisha The Seventeenth of Tammuz ( Hebrew: שבעה עשר בתמוז, Shiv'ah Asar b'Tammuz) is a minor Jewish fast day commemorating the breach of the walls Tenth of Tevet (עשרה בטבת Asara BeTevet) the tenth day of the Hebrew month of Tevet, is a minor fast day in Judaism. Etymology The Hebrew name given in Scripture for the building is Beit HaMikdash or "The Holy House" and only the Temple in Jerusalem is referred to by this name The Fast of Gedalia (or Gedaliah) ( צוֹם גְּדָלִיָּה, gɛdˈlaɪə or gɪˈdɑlyə Tzom Gedaliah is a Jewish fast The purpose of a fast of mourning is the demonstration that those fasting are impacted by and distraught over earlier loss. This serves to heighten appreciation of that which was lost. This is in line with Isaiah (66:10), who indicates that mourning over a loss leads to increased happiness upon return of the loss:

Be glad with Jerusalem, and exult in her, all those who love her; rejoice with her in celebration, all those [who were] mourners over Jerusalem (יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, he-Latn Yerushaláyim; Arabic: ar القُدس, ar-Latn al-Quds)

The third purpose in fasting is commemorative gratitude. Since food and drink are corporeal needs, abstinence from them serves to provide a unique opportunity for focus on the spiritual. Indeed, the Midrash explains that fasting can potentially elevate one to the exalted level of the ministering angels (Pirkei d'Rabbi Eliezer, 46). Midrash ( Hebrew: מדרש plural midrashim, lit "to repeat" is a Hebrew term referring to the not exact but comparative ( homiletic Pirke De-Rabbi Eliezer ( Aramaic: פרקי דרבי אליעז&#1512 is a Aggadic-midrashic work on Genesis, part of Exodus, and a few This dedication is considered appropriate gratitude to God for providing salvation. Additionally, by refraining from such basic physical indulgence, one can more greatly appreciate the dependence of humanity on God, leading to appreciation of God's beneficence in sustaining His creations. Indeed, Jewish philosophy considers this appreciation one of the fundamental reasons for which God endowed mankind with such basic physical needs as food and drink. This is seen from the text of the blessing customarily recited after consuming snacks or drinks:

You are the Source of all blessing, O' Eternal One, our God, King of the universe, Creator of many souls, who gave [those souls] needs for all that which You created, to give life through them to every living soul. See also Jewish services Listed below are some Hebrew prayers and blessings that are part of Judaism that are recited by many Jews Blessed is the Eternal Life-giver.

Fasting on the Fast of the Firstborn incorporates the first purpose (as do all fasts) and the third, as detailed in the introduction to this article. Additionally, according to Rabbi Jacob Emden, the Fast of the Firstborn, like the Fast of Esther (which occurs approximately a month prior), commemorates the salvation of the Jews from the plot of Haman. Jacob Emden ( (the Yabets) was a Jewish Rabbi and notable Talmudist and prominent opponent of the Shabbethaians. The Fast of Esther ( Ta'anit Ester, Hebrew תענית אסתר is a Jewish fast from Dawn until Dusk on Purim This is because Haman advanced his plot on the thirteenth of Nisan (Esther, 3:12), and Queen Esther instructed all Jews of Shushan to undertake a three-day fast beginning on the following day (the fourteenth of Nisan) (ibid, 4:16). Esther ( born Hadassah, is a queen of Persian Empire in the Hebrew Bible, the queen of Ahasuerus (traditionally identified with Artaxerxes Susa ( Biblical שושן ( Shushan) also Greek: Σοῦσα Transliterated as Sousa; Latin Susa) For this reason, even some non-firstborns maintain the custom to fast on the fourteenth of Nisan.

Additionally, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Sh'lomo 3:179-180) suggests that the Fast of the Firstborn incorporates the second purpose mentioned above; firstborns fast to mourn the loss of their priestly status (see Numbers, 3:40-51) which had initially been granted them on the fourteenth of Nisan (ibid. Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ( July 20 1910 - February 20 1995) ( Hebrew: שלמה זלמן אוירב&#1498 was a renowned , 3:14). Furthermore, during the Temple period, this loss was most profoundly felt on the fourteenth of Nisan, which was the busiest day of the year for the Temple priests and Levites (see Pesachim 58a). Etymology The Hebrew name given in Scripture for the building is Beit HaMikdash or "The Holy House" and only the Temple in Jerusalem is referred to by this name A kohen (or cohen, Hebrew כּהן "priest" pl כּהנִים kohanim or cohanim) has a separate status in Judaism. In the Jewish tradition a Levite ( is a member of the Hebrew tribe of Levi.

Fast of the Firstborn - Citizendia

 

[visionary]

I found it interesting how they tied the priestly status ... Was not Aaron the first born?

 

[twob4me]

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[pat34lee]

You are most certainly correct. All of Jewish history is worthless dung, especially Talmud. The only thing worth studying is the English translation of the German interpretation of the Latin translation of the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic record of scripture as approved by Rome.

Really?

 

[Yahudim]

I agree with most of what you wrote except this. Talmud is the leaven of the Pharisees; there is no safe amount to accept.

I had posted previously that Talmud could be used as a confirmation of independent historical sources, for instance for the purpose of establishing verifiable context. Not just for historical events, but the establishment of literary devices such as common figures of speech. Some people are so reactionary to even the name Talmud, that they ignore its value as a research tool. Every scriptural scholar worth their salt, uses various extra scriptural sources to verify or reject information.

What if you find in some ancient Hebraic writings, several ancient 'sages' arguing different positions and they all use an idiom in different ways that assists in establishing its existence as a figure of speech and its meaning? Wouldn't you want to know that definition when you run across that idiom in scripture? I know I would. Doesn't mean I have to agree or disagree with any particular rabbi's position. Just means I want to know how the language is used or whether or not an event occurred.

Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic aren't even close to modern English. We need a little more help that just the hunches of fourth century translators, 17th century European preachers or contemporary American TV ministers.

Murder, rape and theft are horrible things. But I wouldn't reject modern forensic techniques and the evidence it may uncover just because they were based on criminal activity.

 

[Yahudim]

Really?

No.

 

[pat34lee]

I had posted previously that Talmud could be used as a confirmation of independent historical sources, for instance for the purpose of establishing verifiable context. Not just for historical events, but the establishment of literary devices such as common figures of speech. Some people are so reactionary to even the name Talmud, that they ignore its value as a research tool. Every scriptural scholar worth their salt, uses various extra scriptural sources to verify or reject information.

What if you find in some ancient Hebraic writings, several ancient 'sages' arguing different positions and they all use an idiom in different ways that assists in establishing its existence as a figure of speech and its meaning? Wouldn't you want to know that definition when you run across that idiom in scripture? I know I would. Doesn't mean I have to agree or disagree with any particular rabbi's position. Just means I want to know how the language is used or whether or not an event occurred.

Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic aren't even close to modern English. We need a little more help that just the hunches of fourth century translators, 17th century European preachers or contemporary American TV ministers.

Murder, rape and theft are horrible things. But I wouldn't reject modern forensic techniques and the evidence it may uncover just because they were based on criminal activity.

Let's start with the parts of the talmud that are commentaries on the Tanakh and life in general. These would be the areas a scholar would find most helpful, correct? How much of that is reported to come from before the 1st century AD? Before the 3rd century? And how much of the total talmud is it?

A large part of the Tanakh is setting up the rules and traditions that the Jews were to live by, and is not applicable to messianics. How much of the talmud is that?

Parts of the talmud are specifically anti-gentile, anti-Christian, or anti-Yeshua. How much of the talmud comprises these views?

 

[visionary]

Another interesting tradition that just may have a deeper implication in the last days is Mekhirat Hametz (Sale of Hametz) it happens just before Ta'anit B'Khorim because if you have not sold your hametz by then you are to burn it in the morning of Ta'anit B'Khorim. IF there is any prophetic story in this for the last days, it will be that before the no buy or sell gets down and dirty, we should sell all we have, and as the first born of Yeshua no that only we will be fasting just before He passes over with the plagues.

 

[yedida]

I know that many of the Jewish businesses follow the part about not selling during the week but from my understanding they just set it aside somehow that is not in violation but then it is sellable after the fact. My memory is rusty as it was a year ago that I was reading about this. But from my understanding, whatever it is that they do does not violate the laws pertaining to the buy-selling that you mention.
But where you're heading sounds like a lot of interesting study to be had. Keep it coming Vis. I love it when you get on a roll!!

 

[visionary]

I know that many of the Jewish businesses follow the part about not selling during the week but from my understanding they just set it aside somehow that is not in violation but then it is sellable after the fact. My memory is rusty as it was a year ago that I was reading about this. But from my understanding, whatever it is that they do does not violate the laws pertaining to the buy-selling that you mention.
But where you're heading sounds like a lot of interesting study to be had. Keep it coming Vis. I love it when you get on a roll!!

Of course it is not, the no buy or sell for the mark is a "Revelation" our Jewish brethren have yet to receive.

 

[yedida]

Oooh Okay we were on different pages. I was thinking of the week of Pesach and there is a law about kosher foods that are available before Pesach and those during and after. Way different pages, sorry Vis.

 

[visionary]

Oooh Okay we were on different pages. I was thinking of the week of Pesach and there is a law about kosher foods that are available before Pesach and those during and after. Way different pages, sorry Vis.

no problem.. it is always my focus to look for spiritual prophetic applications... sorry..

On another subject related to this one.. could I get someone to read this and help me? Are the verses or sections of the Talmud that they are memorizing related to the Exodus, or Mikvahs, or the plagues or??